The Transporter Bomb: Did the writers never think of this?

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Re: The Transporter Bomb: Did the writers never think of this?

Post by Formless » 2017-07-19 05:51pm

And it also stands to reason that anyone who faces an unknown force with unknown technology would take the time to capture and experiment on it. The British didn't just break the Enigma machine blindly, you know, these things get captured and studied. And the Empire has quite a bit of experience in boarding operations from dealing with Rebel ships. I've argued in the past that its one of their more often overlooked advantages in the VS scenario, given that everyone assumes a battle to the death. And they would not have to capture a large ship like a Galaxy class, a smaller Nebula class which could fit into their hangar bay or even perhaps a roundabout would give them enough information to figure out what the minimum ECM is to stop transporter incursions onto their ships.

Besides, we also have to account for the way transporters are actually used. So far, only four examples of transporters being used to deliver bombs have been brought up, and only one case of vital components being removed (from a ship they had the schematics for, no less). Three of the four examples were all from Voyager, and only two examples involved the bomb(s) being sent over to a ship that was fighting back. In both cases, the intent was to disable rather than to destroy, and in the Enterprise case the "bombs" being deployed were stun grenades meant to soften up the defenders before a boarding action. This means that to Starfleet, this tactic is clearly unconventional, and therefor not the first thing they would think to do, especially against an unknown enemy, as per your own logic. What we do see a lot of is transporters being used to facilitate boarding actions, even against the Borg. If that is the standard doctrine for using transporters in combat, what is more likely? That a Starfleet captain would send over a torpedo, not knowing exactly where the reactor and other vital ship components are, or that they would attempt to board the bridge of his enemy, since its literally a tower that sticks out like a sore thumb? With the Klingons this goes double-- they board enemy ships not out of practicality but for the honor of engaging in close combat. But again, the Imperials have an advantage where ship-board combat is concerned due to, at minimum, being a professional military and wearing proper armor. Neither Starfleet personnel nor the Klingons would stand much of a chance against Stormtroopers on their own ship.
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Re: The Transporter Bomb: Did the writers never think of this?

Post by NecronLord » 2017-07-19 07:45pm

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:
2017-07-19 12:59pm
On the other hand, SW ships hull comprise Durasteel, which contains Neutronium, a known transport inhibitor.
Legends.
Formless wrote:
2017-07-19 05:51pm
And it also stands to reason that anyone who faces an unknown force with unknown technology would take the time to capture and experiment on it. The British didn't just break the Enigma machine blindly, you know, these things get captured and studied. And the Empire has quite a bit of experience in boarding operations from dealing with Rebel ships. I've argued in the past that its one of their more often overlooked advantages in the VS scenario, given that everyone assumes a battle to the death. And they would not have to capture a large ship like a Galaxy class, a smaller Nebula class which could fit into their hangar bay or even perhaps a roundabout would give them enough information to figure out what the minimum ECM is to stop transporter incursions onto their ships.
Within the context of the a Federation-Imperial War, I actually think it would be hard to get a federation ship above the scale of shuttles and runabouts that would be possible to capture. Starfleet's Kobayashi-Maru test seems to be aimed at weeding out command staff who would consider surrender, and every captain we've ever seen in a relevant situation has chosen to destroy their ship. I don't think we've also ever heard of a federation ship captured by a hostile force.

In a realistic scenario, it's so much easier than that, buy key transport inhibitor technology from the likes of the Ferengi.

Of course, it's entirely possible to obtain a solution in the long term, and in a campaign there would be little point in organized resistance nor opportunity for it, because one or two viable ship-to-ship tactics don't matter when you cannot refuel yourself and the evil space empire has annexed your government.

It's only really a relevant tactic in a single-ship scenario or something of similarly short duration, or for partisans (shades of The High Ground right off the bat).
What we do see a lot of is transporters being used to facilitate boarding actions, even against the Borg. If that is the standard doctrine for using transporters in combat, what is more likely? That a Starfleet captain would send over a torpedo, not knowing exactly where the reactor and other vital ship components are, or that they would attempt to board the bridge of his enemy, since its literally a tower that sticks out like a sore thumb? With the Klingons this goes double-- they board enemy ships not out of practicality but for the honor of engaging in close combat. But again, the Imperials have an advantage where ship-board combat is concerned due to, at minimum, being a professional military and wearing proper armor. Neither Starfleet personnel nor the Klingons would stand much of a chance against Stormtroopers on their own ship.
This really would be carrying the idiot ball, though quite possible in both franchises. Of course, I'm remarkably less impressed by stormtroopers chances now we know that their proper armour actually inhibits their aim compared to just using the iron sights.
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Re: The Transporter Bomb: Did the writers never think of this?

Post by Formless » 2017-07-19 08:16pm

NecronLord wrote:
2017-07-19 07:45pm
Within the context of the a Federation-Imperial War, I actually think it would be hard to get a federation ship above the scale of shuttles and runabouts that would be possible to capture. Starfleet's Kobayashi-Maru test seems to be aimed at weeding out command staff who would consider surrender, and every captain we've ever seen in a relevant situation has chosen to destroy their ship. I don't think we've also ever heard of a federation ship captured by a hostile force.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPJSqB9mlAc[/youtube]
In a realistic scenario, it's so much easier than that, buy key transport inhibitor technology from the likes of the Ferengi.
Assuming you trust Ferengi, considering that the higher ups are influenced by Quark, a Federation sympathizer.
Of course, it's entirely possible to obtain a solution in the long term, and in a campaign there would be little point in organized resistance nor opportunity for it, because one or two viable ship-to-ship tactics don't matter when you cannot refuel yourself and the evil space empire has annexed your government.

It's only really a relevant tactic in a single-ship scenario or something of similarly short duration, or for partisans (shades of The High Ground right off the bat).
Really, for numerous reasons transporter tactics like boarding, kidnapping, and weapons delivery are at best going to work on few occasions where the enemy does not suspect it or you have a technological edge they don't know about. And it seems like countermeasures are developed quickly and often, as memory alpha lists at least three standard technologies meant to deal with it (scramblers, inhibitors, and particle scrambling fields). This is likely for good reason. Anyone who knows about it is going to understand the threat it potentially represents.
This really would be carrying the idiot ball, though quite possible in both franchises. Of course, I'm remarkably less impressed by stormtroopers chances now we know that their proper armour actually inhibits their aim compared to just using the iron sights.
I don't watch the TV shows, so I can't comment on them, but then again I don't care. This is not evidenced in any of the films, including the most recent ones like Rouge One. It sounds like one more attempt by the writers of the EU to explain the brain bug that Storm Troopers suck, when in fact they don't. Its just a brain bug. Everyone seems to forget Obi-Wan's line from ANH: "Only Stormtroopers are this precise."

Their aim is fine. The troops on Scarif left no survivors besides the two main leads. Even Leia got hit on two separate occasions! So no, I don't buy it. Pre- or Post-Disney, the films have a higher canon privilege as far as I'm concerned, and I'm sure its a sentiment most people will agree with. End of the day, stormtroopers still have an advantage over every kind of soldier we've seen fielded in the Delta Quadrant, save perhaps for the Jem Hadar (ironically, the guys who lost). Maybe the Breen, but I don't recall them ever engaging in interpersonal combat onscreen.
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Re: The Transporter Bomb: Did the writers never think of this?

Post by NecronLord » 2017-07-19 08:49pm

The films do not have a higher canon privilege under the canon guidance put out by Disney, it's all one, mobile games are as canon as movies.

Dumb, isn't it?

But honestly, if you're ignoring the TV series then you're missing a whole lot of information about imperial response to intruders on their ships, (hint, it's not that great, there's an example where technicians call for backup and pull out their sidearms and it takes a whole minute for a trooper to arrive) enough that I don't think you honestly have the information you need to conjecture on the topic.

As for Scarif, the only one of the initial landing party who was shot by a non-special forces stormtrooper (the guys using the stocks on their guns!) was K-2S0, the rest of the main-character deaths were due to deathtroopers; obviously the non-dialogue rebels do a fair bit of dying to the stormtroopers but I'm not really impressed by their showing there. The white clad troops singularly fail to do anything against the Rogue One team for quiiite some time.
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Re: The Transporter Bomb: Did the writers never think of this?

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2017-07-19 09:12pm

I don't think we've also ever heard of a federation ship captured by a hostile force.
You're joking, right? How many times have the Enterprise/Defiant/Voyager each been captured in total? Not to mention the likes of the Prometheus being taken over by the Romulans.
Maybe the Breen, but I don't recall them ever engaging in interpersonal combat onscreen.
There was this one in Internment Camp 371:
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Re: The Transporter Bomb: Did the writers never think of this?

Post by NecronLord » 2017-07-19 09:22pm

No, not really. From the context, we're talking about boarding actions, featuring squads of troopers going room to room to take the ship, as Star Wars forces often do.

We have no idea what ruse the Romulans used to get control, but it probably wasn't 'approach in open hostility and board the ship' - starfleet have lost control of ships briefly under many circumstances, but never, to my knowledge, in an open boarding action, as is being proposed.

Likewise, as Formless points out, Picard surrendered his ship, to a god, with no need of its information and no fiesable benefit from it.

Actually boarding the ship and taking it room to room with guns gives plentiful time to activate the self destruct, compared to say, subversion of the systems by the borg, or Sybok's convinient mind powers. We've also seen them entirely willing to destroy ships rather than allow capture (the Prometheus example you mention even has a starfleet taskforce sent to destroy the prize-vessel).

Can you name a time a hostile force - and this time I'll clarify - military force boarded a federation ship and took control of it on screen?
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Re: The Transporter Bomb: Did the writers never think of this?

Post by Formless » 2017-07-19 09:44pm

Necronlord wrote:Dumb, isn't it?
Yes. Dumb enough that I stand by my assertion that the films deserve primacy despite Disney's current stance, which sucks horse testicles. Think of it this way: the films are the one thing that would remain canon in the hypothetical scenario that the franchise changed hands yet again. They are the groundwork for the rest of the entire franchise. Without them, there would not be a Star Wars universe. Call me a purist, but if I hear from a random stranger that they are a Star Wars fan I can be quite certain they've seen the films. But I cannot safely bet that they give a crap about the comics, books, video games, and TV shows.

You need some way of resolving contradictions when they crop up in debate. Seems like as good a way as any.
But honestly, if you're ignoring the TV series then you're missing a whole lot of information about imperial response to intruders on their ships, (hint, it's not that great, there's an example where technicians call for backup and pull out their sidearms and it takes a whole minute for a trooper to arrive) enough that I don't think you honestly have the information you need to conjecture on the topic.
Sure I can. In the films, you can't walk twenty feet on an Imperial ship or an Imperial installation without bumping into a Stormtrooper. The exceptions would be at specific points like the Death Star's detention center (which was technically inescapable, unless you conveniently had a droid help you deactivate the trash compactor from afar), the Scarif data vault (although I could be misremembering there, and besides which the Empire wasn't expecting anyone to be able to get onto Scarif), and at Endor (which was a trap set by the Emperor himself). So the only explanations I can think of for such lapses in security are 1) the troopers got better precisely because of shit that the early rebels pulled before the Battle of Yavin; 2) ships on an active mission are better staffed and drilled as well as high profile installations; 3) the writing on Rebels is garbage and any contradictions from it ought to be ignored. For that matter, what is the canon status of The Clone Wars? I seem to remember clone troops being better about this sort of thing. Its always felt strange to me out how much they want the Clones to be awesome but the Stormtroopers to be shit, even though the latter descend from the military tradition started by the former.
As for Scarif, the only person who was shot by a non-special forces stormtrooper (the guys using the stocks on their guns!) was K-2S0, the rest of the main-character deaths were due to deathtroopers; obviously the non-dialogue rebels do a fair bit of dying to the stormtroopers but I'm not really impressed by their showing there.
Yeah, but non-named characters have to be accounted for regardless of how silly the idea of Character Shields is. Hell, character shields is arguably a canon phenomenon given the idea that The Force can sometimes interfere with the destiny of even normal people and allow them to do the extraordinary as long as they place their faith in it. Hence why people say "may the Force be with you." Taking that out of the equation, the Stormtroopers come out looking a lot better at what they do, and the special forces troopers come off looking like worthy inheritors of the Clone Trooper legacy.
Actually boarding the ship and taking it room to room with guns gives plentiful time to activate the self destruct, compared to say, subversion of the systems by the borg, or Sybok's convinient mind powers. We've also seen them entirely willing to destroy ships rather than allow capture (the Prometheus example you mention even has a starfleet taskforce sent to destroy the prize-vessel).
We've seen the Voyager self destruct system fail before. It makes sense: the self destruct sequence of 24'th century ships seems to always involve deliberately creating a warp core breach, so it has to first deactivate the existing safeties preventing a warp core breach. Plus, the Breen and iirc a few other powers demonstrated that power disrupting weapons can work quite effectively against federation technology, so ion cannons should work against them as well. Given that ships have canonically been assimilated by the Borg despite the self-destruct function, its safe to say this is not a 100% reliable fail-safe against the capture of Federation technology.

Way of the Warrior shows how the Klingons at least go about boarding a space station: beaming waves of soldiers either randomly onto the promenade, or specifically onto key points like the Command Center. Starfleet would probably not expect a Star Wars style boarding action clearing the ship from one end to the other, ironically because of transporters.
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Re: The Transporter Bomb: Did the writers never think of this?

Post by Formless » 2017-07-20 02:59am

NecronLord wrote:
2017-07-19 09:22pm
Can you name a time a hostile force - and this time I'll clarify - military force boarded a federation ship and took control of it on screen?
While doing some research just to confirm that the self destruct sequence can in fact be disabled, I found out that in Basics part 1 the following exchange happens:

Tuvok: We're being boarded through the shuttle bays, captain. Phaser fights reported on decks 5... 6... 7...

Chakote: Intruder Alert! Security to decks 5 through 7.

Janeway: Begin evacuation. Janeway to computer.

computer: *chimes*

Janeway: Initiate self destruct sequence. Authorization Janeway Pie one one zero. Set at ten minutes.

Computer: *chimes* Unable to initiate self destruct sequence due to damage to Secondary Command Processors.

Janeway and crew: *looks of shock and horrified realization*

So what we have here is an example of both a military force boarding the ship from the shuttle bay Star Wars-style and successfully taking the ship by the end of the episode. Interestingly, Janeway seems to think its better to just blow the ship up rather than fight a two front battle in the corridors and in space. And it blows up in her face when she discovers probably for the first time that the auto-destruct does indeed have a failure mode. Notably, the Kazon throughout the episode were firing on that ship system and she couldn't figure out why. Apparently Seska knew of this problem while Janeway, who supposedly memorized everything about the ship when it was placed under her command, had no idea.

For another example of a ship being completely overrun by boarders, Deadlock has Voyager (again) get overrun by a force of 347 vidiians who also board not with transporters but by docking with Voyager and cutting a hole in the hull. Again, same type of tactics Imperials would use, and its so successful that Janeway just self destructs the ship. Of course, earlier in the episode she was considering doing so for technobabble reasons, so she was a bit biased here toward that solution. But it again shows how bad the Voyager crew are at repelling a dedicated boarding action involving more than a trifling number of intruders. And unlike in Basics where the boarding action happens offscreen, we see the boarding parties basically chase down fleeing crewmen who offer little resistance. They retreat, occasionally take potshots behind them without hitting anything, and get gunned down mercilessly. Granted, they were outnumbered 2 to 1, but you would expect better from people who have supposedly been trained for combat and some of whom are supposed to be battle hardened terrorists. When the shit hits the fan during a boarding action, they seem to throw all concept of tactics out the window.
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Re: The Transporter Bomb: Did the writers never think of this?

Post by NecronLord » 2017-07-20 04:27am

Imperial Response Times

Or, alternately, the ships you see in the movies are Vader's personal squadron, and have more troops embarked because the 501st is still a thing (somehow), also we generally only see officer-country in the original movies, the bridge, the holopod, or the hangar areas. The engineering sections being less garrisoned and having a lengthy response time is not a contradiction with what's shown in the movies.

Stormtrooper Proficiency

Not counting ships complement, ninety seven stormtroopers and twelve shoretroopers are killed off on-screen in Rogue One, while the Imperials account for thirty Rebel Alliance ground personnel (half of whom are killed by Vader personally) and sixteen Jedha rebels and two Guardians of the Whills are killed off, and that's including a rebel getting shot by his own side.

The stormtroopers aren't anything to write home about in that film, and are inferior to the rebels, managing to lose twice as many men despite having substantial advantages in ground weapons (AT-ATs even!) air cover (the TIE strikers were there from the start) and simple number. Rebel soldiers are flat-out superior to stormtroopers in Rogue One.

Whether you like it or not, stormtrooper kit, as depicted currently, reduces a soldier's firing efficiency and provides only limited protection at best against melee weapons. And then there's the 'smoke filters' debacle. There's a lot of modern Star Wars that seeks to downgrade stormtroopers toward the meme-tier.

Self Destruct

A note on what you've said previously; the self destruct doesn't use the warp core, at least not normally, it actually uses explosive detonation packs throughout the ship as the primary means of destruction.

I'm deeply fascinated that you're using examples of Janeway being prepared to blow up the ship as evidence to suggest that... the ship wouldn't get blown up. Deadlock is an example of things playing out precisely as I suggested. I never said that they'd slaughter the stormtroopers like dogs (as say, the High Guard from Andromeda might) the moment they had the temerity to try and board. I said they'd self destruct the ship. What you've posted is two examples of Janeway being prepared to do exactly that rather than lose the ship.

The Basics example was with Seksa, a long term crewmember of that very ship, directly telling the Kazon where they needed to shoot (the Kazon had attacked the secondary command processors in multiple engagements in this episode) in order to make the boarding effective.
PARIS: Vessel approaching, coordinates three one four mark two one.
KIM: Signature is Kazon.
JANEWAY: Red alert. Configuration of the ship, Mister Tuvok.
TUVOK: A small raider, Captain. It does not pose a significant threat. Nevertheless, it is powering up its weapon systems.
KIM: Shields are holding.
JANEWAY: Return fire.
TUVOK: The raider is breaking off its attack.
KIM: Minor damage to secondary command processors on deck twelve. EPS power supplies and isolinear controllers are offline. No casualties, though.
JANEWAY: Begin repairs, Mister Kim. Any other sign of Kazon ships, Lieutenant?
[...]
Captain's log, supplemental. None of the four Kazon attacks have caused serious damage, but the starboard ventral has been hit each time, complicating repairs on the secondary command processors.
[...]
KIM: They're coming at our starboard ventral again. Our shields there haven't been repaired yet. We're going to sustain more damage to the secondary command processors.
CHAKOTAY: Starboard ventral.
COMPUTER: Warning. Fires have been detected on decks twelve and fifteen, sections A four through C eighteen.
KIM: Control units are responding, Captain.
JANEWAY: Keep our port forequarter facing the line of attack, Mister Paris. Don't let them see our starboard ventral.
PARIS: I'm doing my best.
JANEWAY: Continuous fire, starboard phasers.
TUVOK: Acknowledged. They're withdrawing, Captain.
CHAKOTAY: Stand down Red alert.
JANEWAY: Mister Kim.
KIM: Deck twelve is in shambles.
CHAKOTAY: We barely have time to begin repairs before they attack it again.
KIM: At least no one was hurt. The secondary command processors are non-functional. We'll have to rebuild them. I'd say we're looking at two days work if we're not attacked again.
CHAKOTAY: Why would these factions of Kazon, loyal to no one, all have the same agenda? And why would that agenda focus on a nonessential area of the ship?
JANEWAY: I don't know, but it feels like we're being pecked to death by ducks.
Though I'll grant that is an example of what I asked for, it required extensive preparation and insider knowledge and five attacks in advance to make that happen. The self destruct also fails during boarding in Nemesis, without such buildup, but it's very clear that self-destruct is the standard operating procedure for starfleet captains if they fear their ship will be taken. Frankly it ought to be SoP for the Rebel Alliance too; they'd have killed Vader off twice at least if it was.
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Re: The Transporter Bomb: Did the writers never think of this?

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2017-07-20 12:21pm

I can think of one successful boarding action, though it isn't shown on-screen: the Hirogen taking Voyager in "The Killing Game." Seven mentions she was in a firefight on Deck 3 before being incapacitated.
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Re: The Transporter Bomb: Did the writers never think of this?

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2017-07-20 12:30pm

Incorrect- Picard only tries to activate the autodestruct after ramming the Scimitar and the Scimitar tearing away.

The Reman boarding party (having been beamed onto deck 29 instead of deck 1 since that's where the shields failed) were defeated by Worf and Riker plus a similarly-sized security team. The boarding party (commanded by the Viceroy) were ordered to capture Picard, most of whom were picked off either by Worf or one of the redshirts.

The Viceroy himself was a far tougher nut to crack and Riker decided to go after him. One second he was able to blast his weapon out of his hands, the next he couldn't hit a guy who just sat there grinning at him from ten feet away.

I can think of two more boarding actions, this time involving the Defiant against the Dominion. Its first mission into the Gamma Quadrant, and again in One Little Ship.
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Re: The Transporter Bomb: Did the writers never think of this?

Post by NecronLord » 2017-07-20 02:54pm

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:
2017-07-20 12:30pm
Incorrect- Picard only tries to activate the autodestruct after ramming the Scimitar and the Scimitar tearing away.

The Reman boarding party (having been beamed onto deck 29 instead of deck 1 since that's where the shields failed) were defeated by Worf and Riker plus a similarly-sized security team. The boarding party (commanded by the Viceroy) were ordered to capture Picard, most of whom were picked off either by Worf or one of the redshirts.

The Viceroy himself was a far tougher nut to crack and Riker decided to go after him. One second he was able to blast his weapon out of his hands, the next he couldn't hit a guy who just sat there grinning at him from ten feet away.
Mmmhm? The point is that Starfleet seems to have standing orders to destroy ships before capture, even at the loss of the entire crew if required.
I can think of two more boarding actions, this time involving the Defiant against the Dominion. Its first mission into the Gamma Quadrant,
Transporters directly to the bridge were used to immediately take the command crew into custody in this instance. That's not generally going to be an option for boarding via breaching pod.
and again in One Little Ship.
And in that episode, Sisko takes steps to destroy the ship when it's part compromised to stop it falling into dominion hands...
[Engine room]

WORF: I cannot access the autodestruct system without drawing attention.
SISKO: Plant a computer virus in the warp plasma subprocessor. Set it to cause a core breach once the ship reaches warp one.
WORF: Understood.
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Re: The Transporter Bomb: Did the writers never think of this?

Post by Formless » 2017-07-20 03:23pm

The Stormtroopers don't have to be better than the Rebels to be better than Starfleet personnel. Again, we saw the Vidiians invade Voyager the same way the Kazon did, and they strolled casually through the halls while Starfleet personnel-- some of them named characters like Tom Paris!-- ran in terror and got gunned down for their tactical stupidity. At least the Rebels on Leia's ship took up defensive positions at the airlock, and remember, they lost that fight decisively. Now, I don't care about whether that was the 501st or whatever because a) they use the same equipment as any other Stormtrooper we've seen onscreen, so the claim by the TV show that Stormtrooper helmets effect accuracy must be wrong, and b) which ships and which personnel are we comparing, anyway? Hero ships of the Federation vs unnamed Star Destroyers? Sisko and crew vs Colonel no-name and his division of fresh recruits? The Enterprise is supposed to be the Federation's elite, after all, and even then Worf and his people are notorious for getting their asses handed to them by single intruders! Why compare the best of one side to the dregs of the other? That sounds totally unbiased to me! :wanker:

Edit: And as for needing to know the exact system to target in order to prevent self-destruct, that's making a blatant error in thinking. No, all that needs to happen is for those specific computer systems to go down. Any number of things can cause the power to go out on Voyager including simply dealing enough damage to the power systems or hitting the ship with power draining weapons. If all of the computer systems go down, that includes those systems required to initiate self destruct. Which explains why the Borg were able to capture many Federation officers and Starships at the battle of Wolf 359. The self-destruct system is not foolproof. Also, please actually watch some of these episodes. It is clearly stated in multiple episodes that the self destruct causes a warp core overload, at least on Voyager. Probably the Defiant as well, given the alternative method Sisko proposed to Worf once.
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Re: The Transporter Bomb: Did the writers never think of this?

Post by NecronLord » 2017-07-20 03:55pm

I'm on record as disagreeing with the reputation of the Tantaive IV boarding as even remotely competent, the complete lack of grenades is embarrassing on the stormtroopers part. The Hawkman boarding action in Flash Gordon (1980) is tremendously more ferocious and competent than the Tantive IV boarding, let alone examples from Stargate and other things. The Tantive IV troopers are bozos, compared to, say the Lucian Alliance...



Note the repeated use of flashbang grenades to disorient the crew of the ship and drive them back from the choke-point - the Lucians take no casualties in this example, and the same technique would have saved Stormtrooper lives in Episode IV. In fact Star Wars Rebels has an example of Stormtroopers using vastly better room-clearance drill than the Tantive IV ones, with appropriate use of grenades and cover before entering a contested building.

Which isn't to say that Star Trek's going to win that fight, but I'm not convinced that Stormtroopers are well trained in small unit tactics at any point, even if they have a commendable diversity of weapons, but I don't get why otherwise quite analytical fans make a big deal about the Tantive IV action, it's very kinetic (Lucas was great at that) certainly, but it's not very professional on the stormtroopers' part.
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Re: The Transporter Bomb: Did the writers never think of this?

Post by Formless » 2017-07-20 04:09pm

I don't doubt they could have done an even better job and that grenades would have improved their performance, but considering the casualties they receive compared to what the Rebel defenders take its pretty clear that they didn't win by luck. Rogue One confirms that they have grenades. However, the only Trek serious that I can think of where such weapons were ever deployed is Enterprise...

I'm also not extending this argument to science fiction franchises besides Star Trek and Star Wars. I don't see it as relevant. I'm sure that against, say, Space Marines of the Imperium of Man the Imperial Stormtroopers would no doubt be the ones losing. But it isn't relevant to this debate.

Look, its very simple. Starfleet security seems to primarily expect Klingon style boarding actions. In multiple Voyager episodes where boarding was done in a non-alpha quadrant style, they lost the engagement and were forced to fall back on self-destruct. In two instances, even that fallback option didn't work, and we know the weakness in the Intrepid class that caused the failure. Between this and Wolf 359 we know that Starfleet's reliance on self-destruct is a faulty doctrine for preventing ships from falling into enemy hands. Besides which, depending on how you count it, forcing the enemy to self-destruct is a win. To me it proves my earlier point: in boarding action, Starfleet is at a marked disadvantage compared to many other factions, both in its own universe and in others. This includes the Empire, the CIS, the First Order, etc.

edit:
Which isn't to say that Star Trek's going to win that fight, but I'm not convinced that Stormtroopers are well trained in small unit tactics at any point, even if they have a commendable diversity of weapons.
Well, I'm glad we can agree on that much. But I still think that the constant attempt to downplay Stormtroopers by EU authors and fans alike is a meme that needs to die, because it isn't consistent with what we hear in ANH or see in ESB and RotJ.
Last edited by Formless on 2017-07-20 04:16pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Transporter Bomb: Did the writers never think of this?

Post by Formless » 2017-07-20 04:15pm

Thinking about it, perhaps the quality of Imperial Stormtroopers taken on its own rather than compared to other SF franchises is something that deserves its own thread in the Star Wars subforum rather than sidetracking this particular thread. At this point we aren't even talking about transporters in Star Trek anymore.
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Re: The Transporter Bomb: Did the writers never think of this?

Post by NecronLord » 2017-07-20 04:17pm

Certainly. As regards this thread... Boarding was raised in the context of obtaining technical data. Any action where the objective your superior officers have ordered you to bring intact is atomized is a failure, regardless of how badass you are.

And the point I originally made is that Starfleet officers will almost always opt to self destruct rather than allow their ships to be captured, meaning that yes, capturing large troves of federation military equipment would be difficult. Not impossible, but difficult.

The borg didn't capture any ships at Wolf 359, in fact it doesn't seem to have even been an objective of Locutus? The borg attack several ships and destroy them outright - we see people assimilated there show up in Voyager, but there's no reason to think the Borg took an intact prize ship at 359 (where was it at the end of BoBW?!) at all.
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Re: The Transporter Bomb: Did the writers never think of this?

Post by Formless » 2017-07-20 04:30pm

Alright, lets accept for the moment that its difficult to capture Federation starships and that speaking in terms of mission effectiveness, seeing Starfleet ships explode is technically a mission failure. How else can you get access to transporters?

Easy! Transporters are not technically military equipment. They are general equipment that is ubiquitous in Federation space. Instead of trying to capture ships, you could try taking a starbase, for instance. I'm sure they would be a lot less enthusiastic about blowing up one of those. Or you could take a planetary installation, since those have transporters as well, and they seem to have different security measures in place compared to a ship. Plus it plays to your strengths. It could even be a science outpost or something, which would have little to no defenses in place at all. The Federation really isn't a well defended place, particularly when you have transwarp or Hyperdrive. Ask the Borg.
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Re: The Transporter Bomb: Did the writers never think of this?

Post by NecronLord » 2017-07-20 04:34pm

There are many (almost infinite) better ways to get knowledge of how to deal with transporters. I already proposed the even easier way to get that done; buy them!
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Re: The Transporter Bomb: Did the writers never think of this?

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2017-07-20 08:43pm

Picard attempting to destroy the Enterprise when he did made little sense- Shinzon didn't care about capturing the Enterprise, only Picard. He even said so himself:
[Enterprise-E ready room]
SHINZON: You can't trace my holographic emitters, Captain, so don't bother. And you can't contact Starfleet. It's just the two of us now, Jean-Luc. ...As it should be.
PICARD: Why are you here?
SHINZON: To accept your surrender. I can clearly destroy you at any time. Lower your shields and I'll allow you to transport to my ship.
PICARD: And the Enterprise?
SHINZON: I have little interest in your quaint vessel, Captain.
If Picard's intention was to destroy the Scimitar in the explosion then he should have done it while the two ships were locked together. In fact by the time he tries it, Shinzon had lost all interest in Picard, instead ordering the use of the Thalaron weapon which would have had virtually the same effect.
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Re: The Transporter Bomb: Did the writers never think of this?

Post by Q99 » 2017-07-31 12:18am

NecronLord wrote:
2017-07-20 04:17pm
The borg didn't capture any ships at Wolf 359, in fact it doesn't seem to have even been an objective of Locutus? The borg attack several ships and destroy them outright - we see people assimilated there show up in Voyager, but there's no reason to think the Borg took an intact prize ship at 359 (where was it at the end of BoBW?!) at all.
There's a chance they could've assimilated something and then sent it back to Borg space, but yea, that's really writing between the scenes.

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