StarDestroyer.Net BBS

houser2112 wrote:

Gandalf wrote:

tezunegari wrote:Technically, the first episode of Enterprise was the first contact between humans and klingons.

What I mean is the first time klingons encountered Federation ships after the Earth-Romulan War.

The klingons might have ignored the militarily weak humans in favor of more pressing issues at the time at the other side of their empire.
And then they suddenly have to face this Federation that uses mostly human ship designs and vulcan/andorian/tellarite technology and presenting a united fleet or singular enemy instead of several smaller ones.

That would be odd, considering that Earth and Qo'noS are weirdly close, and had repeated, significant interactions throughout Enterprise.

The UFP didn't exist during most of the time period that Enterprise covers.

That's completely irrelevant to my point. When Enterprise started in 2151, Earth was the capital of a fledgling space nation, and five days flight from Qo'noS. This singular planet joined with others and formed a great big Federation, still on their homeworld's doorstep. For them to not have any important interactions between 2161 and 2254 is ridiculous, especially given that the Klingon Empire isn't particularly centralised, and not even very stable.

I turned off the trailer before it ran halfway
That Vulcan, is supposed to be Sarek of Vulcan; great, turn one of the few beloved characters they haven't completely shit on into a racist asshole who hates his own son -- who's in his mid-thirties, BTW HERE, NOW, and on board the fucking USS Enterprise, but, fuck, let's not get confused by reality, or continuity. We so SMAHT!!

To hell with it, and them
Not paying a cent to see this bullshit

In fairness, Sarek and Spock were supposed to be on bad terms prior to the events of Journey to Babel from the original series... but there's such a thing as taking it too far.

The two things that bug me are that, and that the Klingons don't have hair. Sure, upgrade the makeup, but hair!

Simon_Jester wrote:In fairness, Sarek and Spock were supposed to be on bad terms prior to the events of Journey to Babel from the original series... but there's such a thing as taking it too far.

This is the bad fanfic syndrome, I suspect.

Why do I call it that? Because I've noticed that a lot of times, a long-running franchise that lasts long enough for people who grew up as fans to take over the show ends up suffering for it. Because fans bring baggage. They bring rose-tinted glasses, and they bring their pet wish lists, and their axes to grind, and all the things you'd expect in... well, fanfic, if it had a budget and an editorial staff. Some of Moffat-era Doctor Who, as well as Peter Jackson's Hobbit films, are prime examples of this phenomenon, in my opinion.

And one very common trait in bad fanfic writing, I've noticed, is to wipe out nuance, including character nuance. To crank everything up to eleven. Characters are either whitewashed/idolized, or bashed, depending on the author's view of them, and their most identifiable or noticeable traits are simplified and exaggerated, until what you have is a charicature of the original.

Now, I don't know if that's what's going on here, but it wouldn't shock me.

Simon_Jester wrote:In fairness, Sarek and Spock were supposed to be on bad terms prior to the events of Journey to Babel from the original series... but there's such a thing as taking it too far.

Amanda said, it was Spock's decision to join Starfleet that caused the break. And resulted in them not speaking as Father and Son for Fifteen Years. She didn't say he was engaged in a Vulcan Blood-Death Feud or something. And while Sarek was icy to Spock, he still demanded that she not make him look bad to his peers. I bet you will find it's all retard dialed up to 12, and no one bothering to read or watch the damn TOS. I mean, who needs THAT, huh??

The Romulan Republic wrote:

Simon_Jester wrote:In fairness, Sarek and Spock were supposed to be on bad terms prior to the events of Journey to Babel from the original series... but there's such a thing as taking it too far.

This is the bad fanfic syndrome, I suspect.

Why do I call it that? Because I've noticed that a lot of times, a long-running franchise that lasts long enough for people who grew up as fans to take over the show ends up suffering for it. Because fans bring baggage. They bring rose-tinted glasses, and they bring their pet wish lists, and their axes to grind, and all the things you'd expect in... well, fanfic, if it had a budget and an editorial staff. Some of Moffat-era Doctor Who, as well as Peter Jackson's Hobbit films, are prime examples of this phenomenon, in my opinion.

And one very common trait in bad fanfic writing, I've noticed, is to wipe out nuance, including character nuance. To crank everything up to eleven. Characters are either whitewashed/idolized, or bashed, depending on the author's view of them, and their most identifiable or noticeable traits are simplified and exaggerated, until what you have is a charicature of the original.

It runs both sides though

Running with your diagnosis would be Nemesis, John Logan (the script writer) was a fan and...yeah, paired with an ignorant director (Baird) thatt turned out ..."wonderfully"

But the other side of the coin would be Season 4 of Enterprise, fans did that and were cleaning up the sh*t. Sad story of too little too late.

Now, I don't know if that's what's going on here, but it wouldn't shock me.

Discovery has been suffering from chronic executive meddling, CBS wants what we see...which is why all the technical difficulties in the production.

Scuttlebutt is JJverse is dead and Discovery is a new reboot, complete hard boot/drive reformat. The 'Prime timeline' marketing thing was from the original production effort, since the staff purge and retool things have changed...CBS just ain't going to risk correcting that spiel.

Discovery is going to be 'Star Trek: Edsel', designed by executives for executives while being completely ignorant of the audience at large

I don't agree with the equation, if one was intended, of "reboot" with "designed by executives for executives". That honestly just comes off as more knee-jerk "Waaaahhhh, they changed it so its ruiiiined" fan-speak- the kind that, if it got its wish, would lead to utter creative sterility. Though I admit this issue is something of a sore point for me.

I think that periodic reboots can be a good thing for a franchise, long-term. They allow an interesting idea to be taken in new directions, without being weighed down by the baggage of past mistakes or over-complicated continuity. And if they're going to reboot, a total hard reboot is generally the way to do it- otherwise, I suspect, you just tend to get the worst of both worlds.

That said, they ought to be more up-front with their marketing if that's what they're doing.

I'd be a bit surprised if they shut down Abrams Trek so soon. But then, perhaps I shouldn't be. With Anton Yelchin's death, it would be difficult to continue the films with the TOS crew. And Abrams Trek never really had much outside of those films.

The Romulan Republic wrote: I'd be a bit surprised if they shut down Abrams Trek so soon. But then, perhaps I shouldn't be. With Anton Yelchin's death, it would be difficult to continue the films with the TOS crew. And Abrams Trek never really had much outside of those films.

There was a moderately successful comic-book series from IDW. But yeah, there was never really much material using JJ-Trek as a source; if anything, they've continued pushing old-school Trek all the more with various novels, STO, and books like the 'Visual Dictionary'. I don't think I've seen many, if any, JJ-Trek novels.

I mean, why don't they just adapt Star Trek Online to TV?

The Romulan Republic wrote:I mean, why don't they just adapt Star Trek Online to TV?

Nothing I've heard about the STO version of the future has impressed me but then I never got that far with it. As a continuation of canon at least. The grim dark future where there is only war works to make a lot of combat for the game.

I tell a lie: I did enjoy the inclusion of Captain Calhoun from the novel verse in it.

The Romulan Republic wrote:I mean, why don't they just adapt Star Trek Online to TV?

It's a thought, but I agree with Crazed that it's basically Trek-40K. The plot is more or less a series of threadbare excuses for some faction or other to pick a fight with the player character. It's not very Trek-ish in that there's little exploration, minimal personal drama, and not much science.

Adapting it to TV... well you would have to explain why the Klingons and Federation aren't getting along *again*, how the hell the Borg are a threat again after the end of Voyager, what the frell a Species 8472 is, and why exactly these random races from Voyager or TNG or whatever are suddenly important plot elements.

Not saying it couldn't be done, but it would be difficult to and keep the classic Trek episodic feel. Trek IMO never worked well (DS9 aside) as an arc show; it does best when stories are contained to only a few episodes, or if there must be an arc, make it loose like the Data/Lore story in TNG.

I haven't played Star Trek Online for a while, but from my recollection, its not really grimdark (and this is coming from someone who has an intense dislike of grimdark and wages an ongoing internet campaign against it at almost every opportunity ). There is war, yes... just like there was in TOS, and TNG, and DS9, and Voyager, and Enterprise, and the '09 reboot, and just like there will be in Discovery. But there are also numerous opportunities to cooperate, to end conflicts, to create a better galaxy (well, as much as the needs of a conventional MMORPG permit). I'd consider it only about DS9 dark, at worst, one or two missions aside.

The problem is that the war is constant, and multi-sided, and that it never goes away. With the Dominion there was basically a threat from only one direction at a time, and once a given threat was resolved it was over (e.g. the Klingons went nuts for a while but snapped out of it and became helpful again).

With STO's plot, every time one war ends, another one randomly opens up, and another, and another, and several of the factions will just throw unending resources into a meatgrinder because of whatever they're pissed off about.

It works as an MMORPG designed around space combat, but it wouldn't work so well as a TV show.

Well, I would favour a lose adaptation, most likely, if they were to go that route at all. But as I recall, it does have a unifying enemy for a lot of it with the Iconians, working behind the scenes.

There are many "not war" story arcs from STO that could be used, but everyone who's played STO could find it "lacking originality".

The ST universe is deep enough for a new series, provided they pick a single core theme and stick to it. A nod here and there to the original series is fine, but there is so much more available, it doesn't have to be self-servicing to justify itself. There are certainly times I'd rather they just take the core of OS and throw out most every familiar name, event, or whatever, and just tell some good, new stories. Not everyone was involved in everything, so tell those other stories.

Wishlist:
1) crew rotations/reassignments/deaths. If you have a good XO, he gets his own ship and leaves the ship after a much shorter window (spinoff?); there are so many occasions where it should have been "Riker, take this captaincy, or SF is reassigning you to the Academy, you can't stay in the second seat of the Enterprise", give us character growth (it is supposed to be the thing behind the Federation: make yourself better)
2) off-mission stories. They did this a couple of times in OS and TNG, and it was a nice change (and showed us the crew with their uniform off - or even with it off, that they were still a stick in the mud). More
3) diplomacy. Once upon a time, the flagship of the fleet was a symbol of more than "these are the biggest guns we have, wanna talk?" and wasn't a direct negotiating tool
4) heroes losing (fairly). Show the decision: stay clean and square, or show the cheat to pull out a win. Do you feel dirty, now? That's the price for saving your ship and crew. If you could have won the whole time, it isn't a challenge, is it?

I would almost love a total bait-and-switch, where the shiny new SF ship is cruising, gets into a tussle, loses, and the rest of the season is the surviving crew escaping their captivity/surviving their castaway status/turning traitor/secret agent/resistance fighter. It would have to be well done to keep me in after the initial twist, but if done right, it would be more rewarding than "Danger! Suspense! Resolution with on-hand technobabble!" Tell people stories.

The thing with the Iconians though is that they were largely tacked on a few years after the MMO started, and used as an excuse to rationalize all the various conflicts up to that point. Originally the bad guy behind everything was Species 8472... but whoops, turns out it's actually the Iconians after all?

That's another problem-- STO tends to run with little-known, extremely niche races for effect. The Iconians are derived from -one- episode and a few vague references in TNG. You need more than that to really build up an enemy. You don't need stuff that only fans will care about. I'd rather they create a brand new species and villain than keep trying to coat themselves in the glories of the past.

Elheru Aran wrote:

The Romulan Republic wrote: I'd be a bit surprised if they shut down Abrams Trek so soon. But then, perhaps I shouldn't be. With Anton Yelchin's death, it would be difficult to continue the films with the TOS crew. And Abrams Trek never really had much outside of those films.

There was a moderately successful comic-book series from IDW. But yeah, there was never really much material using JJ-Trek as a source; if anything, they've continued pushing old-school Trek all the more with various novels, STO, and books like the 'Visual Dictionary'. I don't think I've seen many, if any, JJ-Trek novels.

There won't be any JJ-Trek novels. Two of them were written, and one even printed, back in 09. Then JJ's company put a stop to the novels and a lot of other merchandising, and they were never released. I'm not sure how much money was sunken into those books and other products, but even if Pocket were given permission to spec a new novel, they probably wouldn't for fear of getting burned again.

Discovery will have a novel line for sure, though. One of the series developers is Kristen Breyer, who writes the surprisingly good Voyager relaunch books.

I wouldn't be worried about books for a show that's going to blow up on the launch pad

Burak Gazan wrote:I wouldn't be worried about books for a show that's going to blow up on the launch pad

Were Discovery an original SF series (with some tweaks to take that into account), it would probably stand a better chance of success. I think that in this case, however, the Star Trek brand name is a weight dragging it down, more than an asset. Because you have a million Trekkies who either expect/demand that it fail for not being what they expect Star Trek to be, or who have just given up on the franchise altogether.

If they are going to continue Star Trek, short of an adaptation of Star Trek Online anyway (I consider STO the true continuation of the original timeline, canon or not), then a hard reboot is probably the way to do it. But they have to really commit to that if they're going to do it, and I don't think they have. And even then, the "They changed it so its ruined" fan contingent which seems to be particularly loud and obnoxious with Trek would howl.

Edit: That said, I try to give Discovery the benefit of the doubt, in part because I've perceived that since it was announced, their has been a large contingent of commentators (not saying you're one of them) who have been rooting for it to fail (in part, I suspect, due to residual bitterness over the '09 continuity or even the Nemesis/Voyager/Enterprise era).

I'll give it a go.

I have concerns. It's clearly not in line with visuals and aesthetics but w/e I don't actually care about that really.

I guess my main issue is... look... Stop. Going. Back. To. TOS.

Do the bit in between TOS and TNG. Do the bit after Enterprise - the Romulan Wars and such. Do What Happened When Voyager Got Back.

Why keep going back to TOS? Look, it was a good show for it's time - but the original fans of it are 60, 70 years old now. I don't care about their nostalgia for Spock and frankly I don't think they care either.

Hollywood and entertainment seems intent on cashing in on "25-45 year old's nostalgia" right now - well then pick US. We grew up with TNG! DS9!

We outnumber TOS fans and we ...

oh whatever let's do "what happened 13 years before the Enterprise."

Why? We KNOW the Federation will be saved (if it's ever at risk). We know Earth won't get attacked. We know "The good guys win" and "eventually we kinda make peace with the Klingons".

We know the Romulans won't be stopped or defeated, we know Vulcan will remain in the Federation (if there is any tension on that stuff, idk).

Stop boxing yourselves in. At least Enterprise gave itself 80 years of breathing room.

A series placed, say, 5 years after the Dominion War might be interesting; post-DS9 exploration of the Gamma Quadrant? You have the Dominion to play up your political tensions, and the Gamma Quadrant is basically a blank slate for introducing new races and characters unlike the Delta Quadrant now. It could be a rather more volatile version of TNG, especially if the Romulans and Klingons are feeling expansion-y...

Frankly, I'd love to see a series centered around a privateer/unaffiliated merchant ship, set in the ST universe; It could consist of a diverse crew, who have run-ins with some famous events from ST canon. You could have interesting story arcs - like should the crew agree to smuggle ketracel white during the Dominion war? Should they take a lucrative contract to transport supplies for the Duras sisters during hr Klingon civil war? Heck, you could throw in a disgraced Starfleet officer, who is trying to mend his reputation, if you need that Starfleet connection...

biostem wrote:Frankly, I'd love to see a series centered around a privateer/unaffiliated merchant ship, set in the ST universe; It could consist of a diverse crew, who have run-ins with some famous events from ST canon. You could have interesting story arcs - like should the crew agree to smuggle ketracel white during the Dominion war? Should they take a lucrative contract to transport supplies for the Duras sisters during hr Klingon civil war? Heck, you could throw in a disgraced Starfleet officer, who is trying to mend his reputation, if you need that Starfleet connection...

Not a bad notion, but you might have to play jiggery-pokery with the timeline as IIRC from the beginning of TNG to the end of Voyager is... something like 20-30 years? That's a pretty wide time span to deal with. Spaced out over, say, five seasons that might not be an issue, but it could be difficult, particularly factoring events in from early TNG and late DS9/VOY. TNG is also problematic in that a *lot* of the things that happened in that series involved only the Enterprise and its crew directly, interactions with other ships and factions were less frequent. Plus bringing back stars from TNG... well, a lot of those guys don't look as good as they used to. Wil Wheaton is basically nearly unrecognizable as Wesley these days, for example, and even Kate Mulgrew has aged quite a bit.

Still, they're doing great things with computers these days...

Assuming 1 season = 1 year. It's 14 years as in RL. 7 of TNG, 7 of Voyager with DS9 running concurrently.