Re: Should Picard have been promoted?
Posted: 2017-04-16 08:57am
Correct. Even commandeered by Khan, Chekov would have become the ship's legal commander upon Terrell's death.Lord Revan wrote:Are you referring to the Reliant?
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Correct. Even commandeered by Khan, Chekov would have become the ship's legal commander upon Terrell's death.Lord Revan wrote:Are you referring to the Reliant?
True enough, I was just wondering if you were referring to that or something I might have missed.Captain Seafort wrote:Correct. Even commandeered by Khan, Chekov would have become the ship's legal commander upon Terrell's death.Lord Revan wrote:Are you referring to the Reliant?
Lord Revan wrote:Yes I know Worf often commanded the Defiant on missions, my point was that Sisko was still the official CO and Worf was still subject to Sisko authority in a way normal ship CO isn't. I mean Dr. Crusher didn't become the official CO of the Big-E when she took command in Descent, she was still just the CMO.
That's what I meant by technically speaking, in the Defiant duty rosters it would still read "commanding officer:Captain Benjamin Sisko" regardless who actually had operative command at that point.
Out of curiosity, because I don't recall all seven seasons, which occasions were this? The only one I can think of is that tachyon net thing, but that was explicitly Starfleet throwing undercrewed ships at the problem, and half of the Big E's command staff were farmed off to serve as COs for various ships, so I question if there even were "legitimate" (ie: permanently assigned) COs on any of those ships, or if it was a bunch of ad hoc crews. Which would be something of a special case for why Picard is commanding the whole thing, being senior officer present, and not a regular thing for him to do.Q99 wrote:There does seem to be an unstated 'Captain of the Flagship is above any other captain' thing going on too. We see him direct fleet actions on occasion.
There's also First Contact, where Picard immediately takes control of the fleet and commands their attack, not passing the order through anyone. Granted it lost it's original Admiral, but still, Picard just took fleet command on the spot.RogueIce wrote: Out of curiosity, because I don't recall all seven seasons, which occasions were this? The only one I can think of is that tachyon net thing, but that was explicitly Starfleet throwing undercrewed ships at the problem, and half of the Big E's command staff were farmed off to serve as COs for various ships, so I question if there even were "legitimate" (ie: permanently assigned) COs on any of those ships, or if it was a bunch of ad hoc crews. Which would be something of a special case for why Picard is commanding the whole thing, being senior officer present, and not a regular thing for him to do.
The only other things I can think of were maybe another ship or two working with the Enterprise where he'd be in charge by virtue of seniority and/or that the Big-E had the lead in the mission, but again an ad hoc thing.
Sisko is the real outlier here. This despite the fact they actually had a regularly recurring flag officer in the show, Admiral Ross, unlike TNG's rotation of random Admirals.
Picard was also in charge of a couple of ships in "Descent", in which the Enterprise and two other ships were patrolling for Borg incursions into Federation space, with Picard delegating orders to the other ships.RogueIce wrote:Out of curiosity, because I don't recall all seven seasons, which occasions were this? The only one I can think of is that tachyon net thing, but that was explicitly Starfleet throwing undercrewed ships at the problem, and half of the Big E's command staff were farmed off to serve as COs for various ships, so I question if there even were "legitimate" (ie: permanently assigned) COs on any of those ships, or if it was a bunch of ad hoc crews. Which would be something of a special case for why Picard is commanding the whole thing, being senior officer present, and not a regular thing for him to do.Q99 wrote:There does seem to be an unstated 'Captain of the Flagship is above any other captain' thing going on too. We see him direct fleet actions on occasion.
The only other things I can think of were maybe another ship or two working with the Enterprise where he'd be in charge by virtue of seniority and/or that the Big-E had the lead in the mission, but again an ad hoc thing.
Sisko is the real outlier here. This despite the fact they actually had a regularly recurring flag officer in the show, Admiral Ross, unlike TNG's rotation of random Admirals.
Ah, thanks.FaxModem1 wrote:Picard was also in charge of a couple of ships in "Descent", in which the Enterprise and two other ships were patrolling for Borg incursions into Federation space, with Picard delegating orders to the other ships.
Both those things only exacerbate or perpetuate the problem. If there are more ships, then there are probably more admirals needed to direct them. You need more ships and the same or less admirals. And its not just admirals mind you. Senior COs do things like run squadrons and groups (if Admirals are not doing this). They run major fleet acquisitions programs. They act as senior inspectors on inspection teams for all manor of things like tactics, engineering, habitability and such. They attend war colleges and such. They get attached to think tanks to develop tactics and plans. They serve as Chiefs of Staff for admirals. All of these jobs can only been done competently with a successful command tour behind you.Crazedwraith wrote:Would the idea that in theory the Federation is and Starfleet is constantly growing as new members joining and colonies are colonised and so on have an impact on this? More ships and therefore more vacancies constantly being created.Patroklos wrote:Something to remember about all of these perpetual captains is that they essentially make themselves bottlenecks, stunting the careers and growth of fellow officers.
And that Starfleet is officer heavy compared to real navies. (Noncomms being extremely few and far between) so there are a lot more billets per ship for Ensigns and LTs at least.
I wonder if position hogging is much a problem beyond main cast members.
Enterprise might be a special case for its era (Voyager is a special circumstance), but we have an example of one. That's not a good sample size but it he evidence we have. We don't get to invent other observations even if we can't have full confidence in the observation we have.Lord Revan wrote:How many of these "stuck in the same rank and position" officers are there however I mean only captains that remained so was Picard and possibly Kirk (technically Kirk was the official CO of the NCC-1701 only in ST1 of the movies and even then he replaced the previous CO due to his ego). Janeway got promoted to Vice Admiral IIRC and Archer retired from starfleet as "Admiral" even in Prime-timeline IIRC. Sisko is a special case as he's essentially MIA.
It could be that Enterprise is a special case in the fleet and other ships have normal replacement rates for officers.
1.) True, those officers could have gone elsewhere but then again the fact that none of them do points to Picard not being an exception. We know why Riker didn't get a command, but that doesn't mean the rest are stuck for the same reasonCrazedwraith wrote: The only one who's career is being held up by Picard is Picard. I don't think Officers tend to get promoted up and out on the same vessel. There's no reason Riker couldn't have gone to the Captaincy of the Melboure or Data (barring android prejudice) couldn't have become the XO of the Hood or any other ship. Likewise Worf/Geordi etc.
Honestly, yes, he probably should have been promoted.FaxModem1 wrote:Throughout all seven seasons, and all four movies, Picard retains the rank of Captain. The reasoning behind this is the advice Kirk gave him in Generations, wherein he told him not to change, be transferred, promoted, as it might prevent him from making a difference. Should Picard not have listened, and have been made an admiral instead? In-universe, Picard has a very distinguished career and would be able to make more of a difference as an admiral, with more power under his belt. Additionally, he would still be able to have the Enterprise or another ship under his command.
Out of universe, we could have additional story-telling opportunities, with Picard's rank and additional responsibilities and power affecting things over the years, along with making Riker a Captain. Showing that they are progressing, and that they are not stuck in the status quo.
Alternatively, Picard could have retired from Starfleet, and become a full-time ambassador. Letting us see him embracing that part of his life. Would that be a good avenue to explore as a character, or would it limit story opportunities? Would it fit his character, as he wouldn't be able to do exploration, military, or science stories?
What do you think?
Wasn't the final scene the E-E at a station getting repaired?The Romulan Republic wrote:I would think the E-E's Saucer Section ought to have been totalled from that collision (no fault to Troi, though- she put the ship exactly where Picard told her to). But I guess the Engineering Section could have made it.
I don't know. I've never seen the full film. I watched part of it and found it insufferable. But I'm just speaking in terms of what would seem realistic based on the damage sustained during the battle.Tribble wrote:Wasn't the final scene the E-E at a station getting repaired?The Romulan Republic wrote:I would think the E-E's Saucer Section ought to have been totalled from that collision (no fault to Troi, though- she put the ship exactly where Picard told her to). But I guess the Engineering Section could have made it.
The Enterprise didn't suffer particularly badly in that collision - she got her nose bashed in, but that was about it. Certainly a lot less than HMS Eskimo or HMS Belfast, both of which were fully repaired and returned to service.The Romulan Republic wrote:But I'm just speaking in terms of what would seem realistic based on the damage sustained during the battle.
I suppose it depends on what was in the damaged section. IIRC there was secondary/back-up navigational deflector on the leading edge of saucer section (like on Voyager but nowhere close to as prominent, well it was never officially called that or pointed out as far I can remember but on Voyager it looks like a smaller version of the main deflector dish).Captain Seafort wrote:The Enterprise didn't suffer particularly badly in that collision - she got her nose bashed in, but that was about it. Certainly a lot less than HMS Eskimo or HMS Belfast, both of which were fully repaired and returned to service.The Romulan Republic wrote:But I'm just speaking in terms of what would seem realistic based on the damage sustained during the battle.