Axanar update

[Q99]

The lawsuit has been resolved, and we're still getting some form of Axanar.


Article

The deal reached with Paramount, I'm hearing from various sources and people, includes:

- Limited to two 15 minute segments
- Not allowed to crowdfund
- Can't distribute at official fan conventions
- The two segments may use the services of Richard Hatch, Gary Graham, Kate Vernon and J.G. Hertzler but no other actors who have appeared in professional Star Trek productions.

[The Romulan Republic]

Well, I haven't followed this case closely, but that sounds like a very reasonable compromise to me.

[Prometheus Unbound]

Well, I haven't followed this case closely, but that sounds like a very reasonable compromise to me.

Very reasonable charity on behalf of CBS / Viacom.

[The Romulan Republic]

Well, yeah, strictly speaking, they don't have to let them do anything I suppose. Copyright law being what it is.

But its nice (and pragmatic from a PR stand point with fans) not to want to look like unreasonable assholes, which rightly or wrongly was the perception a lot of people had of them over this.

[Batman]

With the limits the put on fanfilms they STILL look like assholes. With the 15 minutes limit, a 50K $ cap and 'you have to buy our hopelessly overpriced merchandise if you want to use Trek paraphernalia' stipulation they might as well have said 'you are not allowed to make any worthwhile fanfilms'.

[The Romulan Republic]

A budget cap seems pointless. Fan films will seldom, if ever, be able to compete with the budgets of an official production anyway.

And yeah, forcing them to buy official merchandise is basically just fleecing the fan community.

But the fact remains, they're not actually obligated to allow anything (other than parody, I guess, because I'm pretty sure that's protected by fair use laws).

That said- while the limits in the OP seem fair, even generous, for Anaxar, because they did cross some big lines, some of them seem excessive to put on the fan community as a whole.

[Prometheus Unbound]

With the limits the put on fanfilms they STILL look like assholes. With the 15 minutes limit, a 50K $ cap and 'you have to buy our hopelessly overpriced merchandise if you want to use Trek paraphernalia' stipulation they might as well have said 'you are not allowed to make any worthwhile fanfilms'.

That's the rules if you want to make a production using Star Trek (TM) property rights. If you want more than that, you can apply for a licence to produce content or toys or whatever via a contract.

Up until Axanar, these rules weren't here. Viacom and CBS / Paramount have been gracious enough for decades, not asking for any payment and allowing people to make stuff up to Axanar quality and size. However they pushed too hard. If Peters hadn't tried to make money off of it, we wouldn't be having this conversation. He forced their hand because if they let him do that, then it sets precedent and you have to defend your trademarks repeatedly, not like copyright laws. Once you lose them, you lose them - which is why Disney defends their stuff so aggressively.

You try doing a film or something that has micky mouse ears - you'll get a letter by the end of the week.

Peters pushed too far, Viacom / Paramount / CBS pushed back - and they were in the right so they won.

[Broomstick]

But the fact remains, they're not actually obligated to allow anything (other than parody, I guess, because I'm pretty sure that's protected by fair use laws).

^ This.

Frankly, I didn't expect Paramount to give at all, I remember the days they completely squashed anything not officially produced by them, be it films or t-shirts or trinkets.

Would I have like a feature-length Axanar? You bet. But I'd rather have the 30 minutes of what I'm sure will be an excellent production than nothing at all. I'm also glad they're keeping the pro actors involved. Not perfect, but then, compromise never is.

[Q99]

That said- while the limits in the OP seem fair, even generous, for Anaxar, because they did cross some big lines, some of them seem excessive to put on the fan community as a whole.

Which is why I'm kinda annoyed at Axanar- by pushing the unspoken lines in a major fashion, and getting a real budget, part of it apparently going to a for-profit studio, they forced Paramount to define the spoken lines, and the way things work they can't just do it selectively.

I'd have liked longer allowed, but I quite understand the rules.


I also doubt they'll be super-strict on the uniform thing or similar minor rules (as opposed to the major ones like the trek actor rule). Just not wanting people to be flashy about their custom uniforms, I bet.

[Knife]

Meh, I get why they did it. But really they just hurt themselves. People who love their product enough to go fan films represent a huge fan base. Squash too hard and you loose fans.

[Broomstick]

The people who own and run Paramount do not care about fans, they care about money and protecting their intellectual property.

[Batman]

And guess who MADE them that money? Fans. They had every right to go after the Axanar people and I agree that lot got off lightly, but with those silly rules they're punishing everybody for what the Axanar people did. I don't care that they're legally entitled to do it (which I in no way shape or form intend to dispute) but the WAY they did it still makes them dicks. They could've left it at 'don't try to make money off our IP without our say-so' . Instead, they made it virtually impossible to do a worthwhile Trek fanfilm without official PM/CBS approval. Which they've given...hpw many times in the past?

[Prometheus Unbound]

Right, they had to enforce some rules. That was the point. Peter's defence was that Paramount's policy was not clear, it was vague and it was inconsistently applied. That was his defence and point for wanting to be able to do the project.

So Paramount have been forced, by Peters, to then invent an actual list of rules and regs and make sure they are applied consistently.

This isn't Paramount's idea. Paramount don't spend money on expensive lawyers if they don't have to. Peters started this, Peters cheated, Peters lied and Peters forced their hand.

Yes it sucks for everyone now (other than Paramount). But that isn't their fault, it's Peter's fault. He knew he was going too far and he couldn't just let go, he had to go take them to court. If he hadn't done that, we wouldn't have this ruling. But he did.

By that stage, they're now in court, Paramount are faced with the Star Trek (TM) product and its licence for use in "fan productions". They had to define what a fan production was and limit it not because they think fans will get confused or whatever, but because if they make it too open, then other companies will start ripping them off legally. They were forced to protect their trade marks and IP.

[Q99]

Right, I'm sure Paramount would've *loved* to drop the hammer on just one target and just gave a 'hey, don't go this far,' general warning to the rest. But, it doesn't work that way. They are punishing everyone because that's what they're required to do by the way copyright works, and it's not *just* whether or not it's for-profit, it's about whether something can be confused with their IP and whether that's allowed, though that aspect in specific is certainly the greatest line-break, but a no-profit full length high production quality work with Trek actors also would cross lines.

[Prometheus Unbound]

Right, I'm sure Paramount would've *loved* to drop the hammer on just one target and just gave a 'hey, don't go this far,' general warning to the rest. But, it doesn't work that way.

My understanding is initially that's what they tried to do. Essentially settle out and tell him "no". He took THEM to court after the fact, claiming he had a right to do it because other productions had done X or Y or Z over the years and Paramount had done nothing so why were they being so damned mean to him in particular. [from his PoV he's of course now spending money and doing the business / profit stuff - if he doesn't sue then he has no studio / bankrupt].

That's my understanding, please do correct me if I'm wrong.

[Batman]

Arguably Paramount laying down some ground rules for what fan creators can and cannot do is a good thing. I think we all agree the Axanar people were out of line and Paramount had to do something to protect their IP. All I'm saying is I think those rules are excessively restrictive to the point of making useful fan projects nigh impossible.

[Q99]

I really don't see how the ones listed prevent making 'useful' fan projects. 15 minute fanvids is still not that bad! (Not full episodes to be sure, but most fan movies, not talking Trek here but in general, tend to less than that) No Trek actors would impact barely any existing vids.

Granted there's rules I don't like, and I definitely would prefer longer time allowed, but, well, once rules start getting made it doesn't stay just with those most sympathetic, it also has to go through lawyers and some less generous execs (like the merchandising one, I'm sure), and I don't see the rules as near enough to squelch the creation of great fanprojects.

[Batman]

Freaking animation is longer than that and STILL often needs several episodes to tell a worthwhile story, The greedy Axanar shitheads being greedy shitheads that deserved what they got aside, those new rules not only mean we won't get Axanar, we wouldn't have gotten 'Prelude to Axanar' or any episode of 'Star Trek Continues'.

[Joun_Lord]

I don't know if it would squash great fanprojects but it might put the damper on some. Fan projects like these fan films are usually done for the love of series but also love of the craft. It is in many ways the same as fan submitted scripts, a work by a fan that both speaks to their passion and maybe has their passion get them a job if they are good enough.

The restrictions, the cost, the inability for people who have officially worked on Trek to help out all might lead to less passion.

And I don't really blame Paramount for this, maybe blame them for not thinking things through more, nor do I really blame Peters either. Part of fan films is pushing the limit of what can be achieved. It would get to the point thanks to technology and the advent of crowd funding that a fan film would get to actual film level even if Peters hadn't did it. Already fan series have been getting more and more professional, getting near studio quality special effects, getting actual professional people working on them some that might have even been paid to do so. The only thing I fault Peters of doing is trying to make money off Axanar, using the resources to make a for profit studio and all that.

Paramount I think should have, if they didn't try, to work with Axanar rather then against it. The people working on it could have been a real boon for future television efforts.

However its entirely possible there was no way for either side to settle this. This is apparently a passion project for Peters that he would not want to compromise to fit official Paramount guidelines and rules if they decided to make Axanar "official". The upcoming Star Trek tv series is set around the same time period and rightfully Paramount might be worried about some polished looking fan film confusing viewers especially if they are about the same thing, Garth of Izar and Axanar.

Hopefully we'll get a post mortem once its all said and done to figure out what both sides did during this fight, I'd love to know if Paramount tried to play ball and Peters said fuck that or he tried to do so and they said fuck that or what.

[B5B7]

I don't know if it would squash great fanprojects but it might put the damper on some. Fan projects like these fan films are usually done for the love of series but also love of the craft. It is in many ways the same as fan submitted scripts, a work by a fan that both speaks to their passion and maybe has their passion get them a job if they are good enough.

The restrictions, the cost, the inability for people who have officially worked on Trek to help out all might lead to less passion.

And I don't really blame Paramount for this, maybe blame them for not thinking things through more, nor do I really blame Peters either. Part of fan films is pushing the limit of what can be achieved. It would get to the point thanks to technology and the advent of crowd funding that a fan film would get to actual film level even if Peters hadn't did it. Already fan series have been getting more and more professional, getting near studio quality special effects, getting actual professional people working on them some that might have even been paid to do so. The only thing I fault Peters of doing is trying to make money off Axanar, using the resources to make a for profit studio and all that.

Paramount I think should have, if they didn't try, to work with Axanar rather then against it. The people working on it could have been a real boon for future television efforts.

However its entirely possible there was no way for either side to settle this. This is apparently a passion project for Peters that he would not want to compromise to fit official Paramount guidelines and rules if they decided to make Axanar "official". The upcoming Star Trek tv series is set around the same time period and rightfully Paramount might be worried about some polished looking fan film confusing viewers especially if they are about the same thing, Garth of Izar and Axanar.

Hopefully we'll get a post mortem once its all said and done to figure out what both sides did during this fight, I'd love to know if Paramount tried to play ball and Peters said fuck that or he tried to do so and they said fuck that or what.

RE: Bolded part: Casual TV viewers are not going to see fan films. Anyone who watches the fan films is a fan who knows what they are watching, and clearly knows the difference between an official product and fan films.
Paramount are just being lawyer-driven assholes. Also their stricture on use of Star Trek actors may be an illegal restraint of trade.

[Joun_Lord]

Casual TV viewers are not going to see fan films. Anyone who watches the fan films is a fan who knows what they are watching, and clearly knows the difference between an official product and fan films.
Paramount are just being lawyer-driven assholes. Also their stricture on use of Star Trek actors may be an illegal restraint of trade.

A decade or so ago when fan films were tapes and DVDs at conventions I might have agreed but these days with the ability to upload to Youtube, not so sure. Plenty of people watched some noteworthy fan films as the Punisher Dirty Laundry and the grim dark Power Rangers and some were confused if they were actual products thanks to their polish, certainly aren't cardboard sets and paper mache models, and actual actors. Like Axanar they had professionals working on them, famous actors, and special effects that bordered on or exceeded tv quality.

Axanar might confuse people even more with it possibly being set around the same time as an actual production that is also going to be released atleast partially online.

Doesn't take someone being a total dumbass to think a show that looks like an actual Star Trek show, with actual actors some of who were in previous shows, and released online same as another Trek tv show might mistake it as something official.

[Rogue 9]

He forced their hand because if they let him do that, then it sets precedent and you have to defend your trademarks repeatedly, not like copyright laws. Once you lose them, you lose them - which is why Disney defends their stuff so aggressively.

This wasn't a trademark case; it was a copyright one. Talking about trademark law doesn't matter one bit in the context of what was just settled.

Right, I'm sure Paramount would've *loved* to drop the hammer on just one target and just gave a 'hey, don't go this far,' general warning to the rest. But, it doesn't work that way.

My understanding is initially that's what they tried to do. Essentially settle out and tell him "no". He took THEM to court after the fact, claiming he had a right to do it because other productions had done X or Y or Z over the years and Paramount had done nothing so why were they being so damned mean to him in particular. [from his PoV he's of course now spending money and doing the business / profit stuff - if he doesn't sue then he has no studio / bankrupt].

That's my understanding, please do correct me if I'm wrong.

You are, in fact, wrong. Axanar Productions was the defendant, and never received a C&D before the suit was filed. Look at the top of any given court document related to the case; they name CBS and Paramount plaintiffs, Axanar Productions and Alec Peters defendants.

[Sea Skimmer]

Axanar had too much money for a cease and desist letter to make sense for the legal rights Paramount needed enforced. That was the number one problem, they were awarding themselves five figure salaries, of other peoples money, to work on protected IP. Everything else was secondary to that. C&D doesn't address that in a useful manner, it would have been a complete waste of time, all the more so in hindsight since its obvious the Alec Peters wouldn't yield unless forced. The guy tried to claim he had to be allowed to make the film first before it could be ruled infringement, after having already said how much money would go in his own pocket.

[Prometheus Unbound]

The guy tried to claim he had to be allowed to make the film first before it could be ruled infringement, after having already said how much money would go in his own pocket.

That is the source of my misunderstanding - I was sure he had made some sort of legal argument that he was entitled to make it - this was that argument. I just mistook it that he had been the one to take them.

But either way, the result is the same - someone else's IP, he's making money off it - if Paramount let him then that is precedence. It means next time someone in Vietnam or China makes a rip off they can't sue - or it becomes much harder to sue - because of this case.

Peters pushed so hard he forced their hand - they had to give these rules or ANYONE could make a star trek fan film - including companies etc.

If he hadn't done this and used these arguments, then they wouldn't have been forced to lay out the rules - which are, by the way, still some of the more lax or loose rules out there for series like this. You try doing this with a Disney product (that isn't SW) and use their trademark items or logos (starfleet insigna, micky mouse ears - same thing legally) and see what happens.

Or open a burger restaurant called McRomalds or something. You try it.

We, as a Star Trek community, were, legally, spoiled, for decades. Unfortunately it was one tiny group that ruined it for everyone. And that tiny group isn't Viacom / Paramount / CBS. It's Peters and his team. But mostly Peters.

[Q99]

Freaking animation is longer than that and STILL often needs several episodes to tell a worthwhile story,

A number of shows have moved to 10-12 minute stories (Steven Universe, Star vs the Forces of Evil, Adventure Time). It's not that hard to tell a story in 15 minutes, or 30 between the segments.

Granted, relatively compact adventures rather than big & epic stuff or character development, but still.


Also, I'd hope some people might take inspiration to do their own original 'serial numbers filed off' series. Like, start with some Trek fanfilms to get eyes on you, then do your own series with your own clearly Trek inspired but not trek ship-flying-for-the-Union-of-Worlds-or-what-have-you.