StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Prometheus Unbound wrote:The Jem'Hadar had some axe things in Sons and Daughters and To The Death. They also tend to carry knives around with them.

How viable were those in combat?

They're pretty basic, not much reach, their head is oddly long for how little haft they have so their mass doesn't go to as good use as it could, but they're better than bat'leth and don't have anything particularly bad about them. I'd want to feel one and check it's balance to really judge it, but there's no way it's bat'leth bad.


Here's a video of a sword expert on a Klingon Mek'leth, while we're on the subject:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0dLUtMViUI

Q99 wrote: Here's a video of a sword expert on a Klingon Mek'leth, while we're on the subject:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0dLUtMViUI

I have to say that doesn't look right to me. The handle is wrong I think.

The Mek'lth designed for Dorn was designed specifically for him, his hand size and balance. I'm also sure it has some sort of leather grip and is a bit longer than that. That looks like a "stunted" version to me, but maybe it's actual size, idk.

Prometheus Unbound wrote: I have to say that doesn't look right to me. The handle is wrong I think.

The Mek'lth designed for Dorn was designed specifically for him, his hand size and balance. I'm also sure it has some sort of leather grip and is a bit longer than that. That looks like a "stunted" version to me, but maybe it's actual size, idk.

Size looks right to me- and that's a nice size for a weapon IMO, you wouldn't want it much longer since it is a 'chopping' weapon balanced the way it is. There's a few variations I see, mostly in the guard area, but mostly a how pronounced the spike, and some have better wrapping but none look to have a good grip, they all look just like wrapping.

Here's one Jadzia used. It's surprisingly hard to find good pics of 'em.

This fan-made one would be much better on the hands

Maybe it's cos the blade is coloured in that's making my brain see it funny.

Ironically for the aggressive klingons, the one thing the batleth is good for is defense. Blocking, catching, etc.. It's long, wide, and can catch blades, it's just not good for much past that.

The mekleth on the flip side, is a weapon Id use in battle.

Stealth vessels and primarily block/catching-oriented weapons might indicate that originally Klingon "wise warrior ways" might be more nuanced than the usual berserker bullshit we see. Which makes sense - lots of martial arts and martial ways emphasize counter-attacks, offensive-defense, rather than pure offense, thinking games that strike when opponents go off-balance or makes an openings in their own attacks, meaning that in the defensive position, waiting for them to initiate, you're setting up a cleaner attack. The defensive poise is in itself just a preparation for an attack.

This nuance can easily be lost in translation since timing and patience and finesse is hard. So charging and wailing on the enemy seems technically easier and if there are constraints in time and resources, if there are too many warriors, then hard high-level finesse stuff will be lost. If not lost, well... it just takes too much time. So just have them do basic swings and send them out to beat ass!

Mind you, 'block and catch' doesn't mean sneaky or smart fighting. There's much better defensive weapons.

It could be a sign of how they were meant for ceremonial or... perhaps gladitorial battles. In real life, Roman gladiators were given weapons that were viewed as interesting, rather than effective. Bat'leths make for fairly long fights most of the time.

Perhaps whatever the Bat'leth originally was, it became more ornate and preposterous as the original utilitarian "snag enemy weapon and allow killing blow" became some kind of ritualistic dueling thing.

Mm, the main problem is the grip and such. It's a two-handed fairly heavy weapon not designed to grant reach. Ornateness can grow, but grips rarely change position, and it's hard to see an evolutionary path from something else. I think it was always a 'this is for showy fights' weapon (which are a thing that exist).

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Perhaps whatever the Bat'leth originally was, it became more ornate and preposterous as the original utilitarian "snag enemy weapon and allow killing blow" became some kind of ritualistic dueling thing.

In rital duelling, a weeapon like the Bat'leth would make kind of sense.

In most codices duelo, you do have a "fallback" weapon in case that one opponent is overly skilled in a certain weapon. For example - A cavalry officer might chose heavy saber, for no other people use it, and he gets to train with it every day.
This was usually a weapon nobody used in warfare, like foils or smallswords, so military and non-military people were on the same page - each of them needed to spend their spare time on getting proficient with that particular weapon. So you could not blame the opponent for his skill, because you had equal opportunity.

A Bath'leth is a weapon you'd usually not use in warfare if most of it is flying spacecraft and maybe boarding in tight corridors. So professional soldiers do not have a huge advantage over private citizens.
It's an easy to use weapon (mostly functions like a weird stick), and it will usually not generate fatal wounds on first hit, unless one opponent is absolutely stupid, so you can do duels to first blood without having too many casualties.

Meanwhile, a Mek'lth is one you'd use in warfare just fine, because that one chops limbs

Lord Revan wrote:Actually bat'leth being weapon that was used only for honor duels actually makes sense, possibly with Bat'leth also being a symbol for status of "warrior". So when ranged weapons became more common most melee weapons stopped being used but Bat'leth remained as you can't use your disruptor in a honor duel that would a cowards way not the way of a real klingon warrior.

That would explain why bat'leth are so common in klingon use even though they have other melee weapons avaible.

But in "Firstborn", Worf tries to teach Alexander self-defense, with a bat'leth. This suggests three possibilities:
1. That the bat'leth forms a central role in Klingon martial arts, comparable to the role of the longsword in 15th century Germany.
2. He just wanted to see how the kid goes about a fight first.
3. It's a ridiculous oversight by the writers, who didn't stop to think about how impractical carrying around an un-sheathable weapon (let alone one of that size) all day is.
If I was the one trying to teach Alexander how to fight, I'd plan to start with those daggers, perhaps with the techniques described by Fiore de Liberi in his "Flower of Battle" manuscript, then gradually move towards unarmed combat and later the mek'leth(and if Worf allowed it, I'd plan on teaching him longsword eventually).
Of course, Alexander didn't exactly take well to becoming a warrior, so all my planning would be for naught.

Well the thing about Worf is that a lot of what he knows about Klingon culture comes second hand, so it could be possible that there's some errors in what he has learned.

Darth Thanatos wrote:Of course, Alexander didn't exactly take well to becoming a warrior, so all my planning would be for naught.

All the better honestly, it's pretty creepy how every Klingon must connect with their culture and become a warrior, no matter what. This includes Alexander, who has no business on the battlefield, and B'elanna Torres, who just wants to enjoy her life and tinker with machines. Both were beaten about the head that they MUST be a warrior, and follow Klingon culture.

Alexander only became a warrior because Worf is such a shit father that he abandoned his son every chance he could and enlisting was the only way he could get five minutes with the guy.

Though, Torres is the mother of the Klingon messiah, so I think fate really did play a part in her life.

Lord Revan wrote:Well the thing about Worf is that a lot of what he knows about Klingon culture comes second hand, so it could be possible that there's some errors in what he has learned.

Not in fighting technique - he bests most other Klingons in hand to hand and has won tournaments before... his "second hand" knowledge of Klingons hurts mostly in the politics and honour department. The Mokbora and similar techniques he seems to have nailed down.

Shroom Man 777 wrote:
Just hold the bat'leth close to you and with your SUPERIOR KLINGOFF PHYSIOLOGY just roll around the tight spaces and cut up all sorts of other people.

So they are like faeblades then?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lLdaJeWBMc

Spinning around with your superior physiology and cutting things up.

Prometheus Unbound wrote:

Lord Revan wrote:Well the thing about Worf is that a lot of what he knows about Klingon culture comes second hand, so it could be possible that there's some errors in what he has learned.

Not in fighting technique - he bests most other Klingons in hand to hand and has won tournaments before... his "second hand" knowledge of Klingons hurts mostly in the politics and honour department. The Mokbora and similar techniques he seems to have nailed down.

I think about it this, if somewhere in the future it becomes to that carrying around and using a fencing foil in the battle-field is seen as mark of a "proper soldier" so that any self-respecting soldier would carry one. Now you got a person who's never seen a historically accurate soldier, he might think that fencing foil was the primary battlefield weapon.

Or it might be better for you to think how knights or samurai are often depicted as using their swords as their primary battlefield (melee) weapon even though knights used lances as their primary weapon with maces, flails or warhammers being used when dismounted and the sword was used for back-up or formal duels. essentially the same applies for Samurai their primary melee weapon being a spear, with bows used quite often as well, swords again being used for back-up or formal duels.

Lord Revan wrote:

Prometheus Unbound wrote:

Lord Revan wrote:Well the thing about Worf is that a lot of what he knows about Klingon culture comes second hand, so it could be possible that there's some errors in what he has learned.

Not in fighting technique - he bests most other Klingons in hand to hand and has won tournaments before... his "second hand" knowledge of Klingons hurts mostly in the politics and honour department. The Mokbora and similar techniques he seems to have nailed down.

I think about it this, if somewhere in the future it becomes to that carrying around and using a fencing foil in the battle-field is seen as mark of a "proper soldier" so that any self-respecting soldier would carry one. Now you got a person who's never seen a historically accurate soldier, he might think that fencing foil was the primary battlefield weapon.

Or it might be better for you to think how knights or samurai are often depicted as using their swords as their primary battlefield (melee) weapon even though knights used lances as their primary weapon with maces, flails or warhammers being used when dismounted and the sword was used for back-up or formal duels. essentially the same applies for Samurai their primary melee weapon being a spear, with bows used quite often as well, swords again being used for back-up or formal duels.

That's true, but then when we do see Klingons engage in either ritual combat (Worf vs Duras) or hand to hand to the death (Worf vs Klingons in Way of the Warrior) he's more than a match for htem *and* those Klingons also went for their swords first.

And not just him - Kor, Koloth and Kang at the Albino Palace - they went in with Batleths, as did Dax. I know they disabled the weapons, but that was the plan even before then.

I don't think Worf has an incorrect idea of what a Klingon Soldier is trained in or what weapons they use - indeed, he's part of Starfleet - I presume they know what their biggest ally fights like.

Prometheus Unbound wrote:

Lord Revan wrote:

Prometheus Unbound wrote: Not in fighting technique - he bests most other Klingons in hand to hand and has won tournaments before... his "second hand" knowledge of Klingons hurts mostly in the politics and honour department. The Mokbora and similar techniques he seems to have nailed down.

I think about it this, if somewhere in the future it becomes to that carrying around and using a fencing foil in the battle-field is seen as mark of a "proper soldier" so that any self-respecting soldier would carry one. Now you got a person who's never seen a historically accurate soldier, he might think that fencing foil was the primary battlefield weapon.

Or it might be better for you to think how knights or samurai are often depicted as using their swords as their primary battlefield (melee) weapon even though knights used lances as their primary weapon with maces, flails or warhammers being used when dismounted and the sword was used for back-up or formal duels. essentially the same applies for Samurai their primary melee weapon being a spear, with bows used quite often as well, swords again being used for back-up or formal duels.

That's true, but then when we do see Klingons engage in either ritual combat (Worf vs Duras) or hand to hand to the death (Worf vs Klingons in Way of the Warrior) he's more than a match for htem *and* those Klingons also went for their swords first.

And not just him - Kor, Koloth and Kang at the Albino Palace - they went in with Batleths, as did Dax. I know they disabled the weapons, but that was the plan even before then.

I don't think Worf has an incorrect idea of what a Klingon Soldier is trained in or what weapons they use - indeed, he's part of Starfleet - I presume they know what their biggest ally fights like.

I'm not saying that Worlf is incorrect specifically but rather that modern Klingons use the "Hollywood" version what a klingon warrior is and Worf can't tell the difference due to being razed by humans.

Lord Revan wrote: I'm not saying that Worlf is incorrect specifically but rather that modern Klingons use the "Hollywood" version what a klingon warrior is and Worf can't tell the difference due to being razed by humans.

oh, I see - that both have it wrong?

Well, I suppose that's possible - the Empire certainly seems to have changed over the years. Kahless seemed pissed off with what they'd become and didn't understand their concept of "honour" as he knew it and told them.

However to flip back for a second, they also knocked Kahless on his ass because he was using the old techniques and they were using the "hollywood" version - and beat him with it.

This is the annoying thing about Trek, there's so much of it and it's inconsistent. We can come up with an idea that fits 99% of the times but then there'll be that one time that directly and expressly goes against it and it's like Same with transporters and warp drive explanations.

You mean the Kahless clone they had in TNG?

Lord Revan wrote:You mean the Kahless clone they had in TNG?

yeah, he had some mix of memories and fake memories or something shoved in there. I suppose on that note you could say the fake memories were the ones of combat, and that's why he lost - he didn't know how to fight the old ways properly because the current Klingons couldn't. Can't really program a simulation if you don't know the maths I guess.

And it's not just a matter of using the weapon. Someone who was master swordsman but ascribed to "hollywood" version of knights could still beat a proper knight in a formal sword duel, but however in a battlefield the knight would be using a polearm, a warhammer, a mace or a flail if dismounted as all those weapons are way better weapons against someone who is wearing plate-armor.

The same way the ancient klingon warriors would have equilevant of those weapons for use against warriors in heavy armor and probably had straight blades or something like the mek'leth for actual battlefield use. Though since the popular culture depiction of klingon warrior was with bat'leth (same way in real life the popular depiction of knights is with an arming sword) when modern klingons started go back to the "old ways" they took this popular culture depiction as the truth rather as "what's cool rather then what's practical" depiction most popular culture is, so a weapon meant for ceremonies and honor duels became the main weapon of this new breed of klingon warriors.

Lord Revan wrote:And it's not just a matter of using the weapon. Someone who was master swordsman but ascribed to "hollywood" version of knights could still beat a proper knight in a formal sword duel, but however in a battlefield the knight would be using a polearm, a warhammer, a mace or a flail if dismounted as all those weapons are way better weapons against someone who is wearing plate-armor.

The same way the ancient klingon warriors would have equilevant of those weapons for use against warriors in heavy armor and probably had straight blades or something like the mek'leth for actual battlefield use. Though since the popular culture depiction of klingon warrior was with bat'leth (same way in real life the popular depiction of knights is with an arming sword) when modern klingons started go back to the "old ways" they took this popular culture depiction as the truth rather as "what's cool rather then what's practical" depiction most popular culture is, so a weapon meant for ceremonies and honor duels became the main weapon of this new breed of klingon warriors.

heh I like it.

And it's not even like they have variations of the things, I think? Other than Kahless' original one, they're all identical. At least on Earth we have broadswords, katanas, rapiers, foils... tens of thousands of different types. Yet all Klingons all the time use the same weapon. Heck (I know it's a TV show) they aren't even customised for the size or weight of the Klingon. They're all customised for Dorn .

Prometheus Unbound wrote: And it's not even like they have variations of the things, I think? Other than Kahless' original one, they're all identical. At least on Earth we have broadswords, katanas, rapiers, foils... tens of thousands of different types. Yet all Klingons all the time use the same weapon. Heck (I know it's a TV show) they aren't even customised for the size or weight of the Klingon. They're all customised for Dorn .

Klingons have plenty of different swords. Mostly they were there as set dressing though. Duras used a different one. And we see a lot of different ceremonial knifes over the course of the three series.

There's also two distinct types of bat'leth. The modern and the classic with one long grip and extra spike in the middle that was both Kahless' and an antique one B'Elanna got from those Klingons that reached the delta quadrant in a D7.