Warp strafing and the importance of DS9

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Adam Reynolds
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Warp strafing and the importance of DS9

Post by Adam Reynolds »

I was recently watching Brian Young's videos on the issue of warp strafing, and while he certainly provides reasonable evidence for this, there is one thing that seems problematic to me. The fact that DS9 was considered to have strategic value by both sides is problematic if it were possible to attack it with impunity. While one can come up with an explanation for why warp strafing is not used in a particular attack, that doesn't answer the question as to why DS9 was considered strategically valuable in the first place.

One possibility that comes to mind is that it has to do with the ability to concentrate fire, which could be all but impossible at warp speed. Though like his shields theory, I suspect many just plain disagree with the assertion that Trek ships are capable of warp strafing in the first place.
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Re: Warp strafing and the importance of DS9

Post by FireNexus »

Warp strafing seems to be not done because ships are reluctant to use a warp drive within a solar system routinely. Or at least near enough to the star for a habitable planet. I know it's technically possible, but there are at least a couple of bits of dialogue indicating it's contraindicated. The Denorios belt is also a navigation hazard on its own.

Honestly,warp strafing isn't even scratching the surface of unexploited tactics. You can cloak something as small as a mine. Cloak a runabout-sized vessel loaded with extra antimatter, accelerate it to high relativistic velocity with a plasma rocket (to keep it from being detectable by its effects on subspace, so you only see it at light speed) and kill the engines. All mentioned sensor tech seems to see cloaked vessels using indirect effects of their warp engines or their reactors at high output.

Use just enough energy for the cloak and let it fly. Wouldn't work against a ship without navigation, but it would work against a space station at least once. The llingons are fond of cloak-based hit and run tactics, too. Which has a much higher likelihood of detection. So it's not like nobody thought of tactical cloaking.

You could even launch a bunch of extra photons just prior to impact. The weapon in warhead more or less used this strategy, too. And even made the weapon smart. Given the size of the device (smaller than a photon) the fact that the car does didn't go all in on the tech is amazing.
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Re: Warp strafing and the importance of DS9

Post by Batman »

Yeah. It's not like Kirk used to Warp straight out of orbit routinely. Oh wait, he did, And couriously enough, even in the TNG and plus era Trek ships 'DON'T spend freaking forever getting from the edge of the system to the actually interesting planets. Oh , and even Picard routinely orders Warp speed while still in orbit.
The 'no insystem Warp' is based almost exclusively on the problems with the fucked-up Warp drive of the E-Nil in TMP.
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Re: Warp strafing and the importance of DS9

Post by Lord Revan »

Something I suggested to Brian Young directly and he admitted could be the reason is that instead of everyone in the ST-verse being utterly retarded there's a limit to the effectiveness of warp strafing that's not obvious thru the episodes directly.

Since the "Rate of fire"(for a lack of a better word) seems to slow when using warp strafing again sublight targets (or targets with high warp speed diffence) it's not unlikely that large stationary targets like DS9 would be able to dedicate enough power to the shields that they would be simply too though to take out via warp strafing before re-enforcements would arrive (or possibly the target would be able to kill too many of your people thru simple barrage fire).

That could explain why no-one ever even suggested warp strafing DS9.
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Re: Warp strafing and the importance of DS9

Post by Captain Seafort »

Batman wrote:The 'no insystem Warp' is based almost exclusively on the problems with the fucked-up Warp drive of the E-Nil in TMP.
It also comes from BoBW, when both the cube and the E-D were shown moving through the solar system at sublight. If ever there was a time to maintain warp right into orbit, regardless of any dangers, that was it.
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Re: Warp strafing and the importance of DS9

Post by Prometheus Unbound »

Captain Seafort wrote:
Batman wrote:The 'no insystem Warp' is based almost exclusively on the problems with the fucked-up Warp drive of the E-Nil in TMP.
It also comes from BoBW, when both the cube and the E-D were shown moving through the solar system at sublight. If ever there was a time to maintain warp right into orbit, regardless of any dangers, that was it.

And it also comes from DS9's "By Inferno's Light". Chasing down a Runabout Bomb headed for the Bajoran sun.

Dax: It's too late, it's out of range.

Kira: Wanna bet? Take us to warp!

Dax: Inside a solar system? (emphasis hers)

Kira: If we don't, there won't be a solar system left. Engage!




Warping into Orbit - the enterprise has done this at least twice. Once in The Schizoid Man and once in Descent. Both times it was to within transporter range of a planet, from warp 9.


It *can* be done - Kirk says as much in TMP - just that it's riskier than waiting till you're out the solar system first. Kirk doesn't say it's impossible, he just says they may have to risk engaging warp whilst in the solar system.

Dax outright says it's a bad idea (but they do it and survive).

And as above, in TBOBW you'd think they'd warp right into Earth's Orbit if they thought it was practical. Both parties, actually. No idea why the Borg stopped at Saturn (they weren't really in a hurry I suppose) but the Enterprise sure dropped out.
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Re: Warp strafing and the importance of DS9

Post by Solauren »

Meta reason: The Borg Dropped out of Warp at Saturn to give the Enterprise time to catch up.

In universe Reason: The Borg were trashing the rest of the Solar Systems defenses, so when they got to Earth, they could focus all there energy on the planet, instead of swatting pesky defense ships.
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Re: Warp strafing and the importance of DS9

Post by Prometheus Unbound »

Solauren wrote:Meta reason: The Borg Dropped out of Warp at Saturn to give the Enterprise time to catch up.

In universe Reason: The Borg were trashing the rest of the Solar Systems defenses, so when they got to Earth, they could focus all there energy on the planet, instead of swatting pesky defense ships.
Oh of course. Out of universe it is literally just a way for the Enterprise to catch up and get some nice visuals and a "ticking clock".

But in uni, it's not unique - it has been said at least twice specifically it's a "bad idea" and two more times (the two transporter ones) it has been mentioned as dangerous and if they're off by a faction of a second they'll be vapourised etc. (which makes sense).



Honestly I think it's a case of "well.. best not." Think about it - a solar system will have a lot more particles of crap floating around that you don't want to run in to at warp speed. That said... navigational deflectors - it's what they're for. But maybe it's like driving on an icy road - bad idea and you should avoid it if you can, but hey if you got a top of the range snow mobile (or Starship in this case), they're kinda designed for it. Sorta. So it's mostly ok. But don't let the cops catch you.
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Re: Warp strafing and the importance of DS9

Post by WATCH-MAN »

Batman wrote:Yeah. It's not like Kirk used to Warp straight out of orbit routinely. Oh wait, he did
Please provide evidence for Kirk being used to warp straight out of orbit as part of a regular procedure rather than for a special reason.
Batman wrote: And couriously enough, even in the TNG and plus era Trek ships 'DON'T spend freaking forever getting from the edge of the system to the actually interesting planets.
Nobody claimed that in the TNG and plus era Trek ships spend freaking forever getting from the edge of the system to the actually interesting planets.
        • With warp point five, the refit Enterprise needed only 1.8 hours to get from Earth to Jupiter in TMP - while these 1.8 hours were not shown on-screen. It does not seem totally implausible to assume that if "in the TNG and plus era Trek ships [were to] spend freaking forever getting from the edge of the system to the actually interesting planets" this time wouldn't been shown on screen either so that the absence of evidence for long travel times does not equals evidence for absence of long travel times.
Batman wrote:Oh , and even Picard routinely orders Warp speed while still in orbit.
Please provide evidence for Picard ordering warp speed while still in orbit as part of a regular procedure rather than for a special reason.
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Re: Warp strafing and the importance of DS9

Post by Batman »

As you are so fond of evidence you no doubt have a plethora of it 'supporting' your allegation that ships routinely take hours and hours between coming out of Warp and arriving in planetary orbit. As opposed to the minutes at best we actually SEE.
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Re: Warp strafing and the importance of DS9

Post by Lord Revan »

Besides how of it takes for ships to reach orbit on impulse is secondary, we got more then enough evidence that in system warp is possible.

Important issue is that since stations like Deep Space 9 are signifigant from a military standpoint, after all there's no point in having anywhere close to the level of defenses DS9 has in all you were handling was occational smuggler trying to escape the law. This means there's most likely a reason why warp strafing isn't used on stations like DS9 (as using it on them would make those defenses pointless waste of resources), so the important question is what is that reason why warp strafing isn't used to make fixed defenses like DS9 or Mars defense drones irrelevant.
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Re: Warp strafing and the importance of DS9

Post by bilateralrope »

FireNexus wrote:accelerate it to high relativistic velocity with a plasma rocket
How long would that take ?
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Re: Warp strafing and the importance of DS9

Post by Prometheus Unbound »

WATCH-MAN wrote:
Batman wrote:Yeah. It's not like Kirk used to Warp straight out of orbit routinely. Oh wait, he did
Please provide evidence for Kirk being used to warp straight out of orbit as part of a regular procedure rather than for a special reason.
TOS did this all the damned time.



The Man Trap:

[Bridge]

SULU: Ready to leave orbit, Captain.
SPOCK: Something wrong, Captain?
KIRK: I was thinking about the buffalo, Mister Spock. Warp one, Mister Sulu.
SULU: Warp one, sir. Leaving orbit.



Miri:

[Bridge]

RAND: They were just children. Simply to leave them there with a medical team
KIRK: Just children, three hundred years old and more. I've already contacted Space Central. They'll send teachers, advisers.
MCCOY: And truant officers, I presume.
KIRK: They'll be all right.
RAND: Miri. She really loved you, you know.
KIRK: Yes. I never get involved with older women, Yeoman. Mister Spock?
SPOCK: Captain?
KIRK: Full ahead. Warp factor one.
SPOCK: Warp factor one, Captain.


Dagger of the Mind:

[Bridge]

UHURA: Oh, Captain, there was a message from Tantalus colony, sir.
SPOCK: It was from Van Gelder. He thought you'd like to know the treatment room had been dismantled and the equipment destroyed.
KIRK: Thank you.
MCCOY: It's hard to believe that a man could die of loneliness.
KIRK: Not when you've sat in that room. Take us out of orbit, Mister Spock. Ahead warp factor one.
SPOCK: Acknowledged, Captain. Warp factor one.


3 out of 6 random episodes from season 1 I checked.


Please provide evidence for Picard ordering warp speed while still in orbit as part of a regular procedure rather than for a special reason.
The Big Goodbye they engage warp (visually) whilst in orbit
Haven (Engages warp in orbit)
Code of Honour (Engages warp in orbit)

... this is just season 1 and again, 3 out of 6 I randomly checked.

Want me to keep going?
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Re: Warp strafing and the importance of DS9

Post by WATCH-MAN »

Batman wrote:As you are so fond of evidence you no doubt have a plethora of it 'supporting' your allegation that ships routinely take hours and hours between coming out of Warp and arriving in planetary orbit. As opposed to the minutes at best we actually SEE.
Please provide evidence that I alleged that ships routinely take hours and hours between coming out of Warp and arriving in planetary orbit.

Please provide evidence that we actually SEE that ships routinely take minutes between coming out of Warp and arriving in planetary orbit.
        • A Star Trek episode usually lasts circa 50 minutes (real-time) but portrays events that happened over hours, days, weeks, months, years or even decades (movie-time).

          It is impossible to show in these 50 real-time minutes all that happened in the movie-time. Things have to be left out. But that things were not shown on-screen does not prove that they did not happened. That's why I said: "Absence of evidence for long travel times does not equals evidence for absence of long travel times." And of course that an episode lasted only 50 real-time minutes does not prove that the events of this episode lasted only 50 movie-time minutes. That in one scene Enterprise is flying with warp and in the next scene it is already in orbit does not prove that there could not have passed movie-time between both scenes. There could be minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, years or even decades between two consecutive scenes.
I simply have asked you to provide evidence for your claim that
  • Kirk is used to warp straight out of orbit as part of a regular procedure rather than for a special reason and
  • Picard orders warp speed while still in orbit as part of a regular procedure rather than for a special reason.
These were your claims and I simply wondered if they are true, if what we really know about the Star Trek universe from what we have seen on-screen supports such conclusions.
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Re: Warp strafing and the importance of DS9

Post by WATCH-MAN »

Lord Revan wrote:Besides how of it takes for ships to reach orbit on impulse is secondary, we got more then enough evidence that in system warp is possible.
As far as I know, no one claimed that warp within a solar system is impossible.

There were already a few scenes mentioned in this very thread in which they used warp within a solar system - but were reluctant to do so.
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Re: Warp strafing and the importance of DS9

Post by Prometheus Unbound »

WATCH-MAN wrote: I simply have asked you to provide evidence for your claim that
  • Kirk is used to warp straight out of orbit as part of a regular procedure rather than for a special reason and
  • Picard orders warp speed while still in orbit as part of a regular procedure rather than for a special reason.
These were your claims and I simply wondered if they are true, if what we really know about the Star Trek universe from what we have seen on-screen supports such conclusions.
I know you weren't asking me but as above, I've given 6 examples. I got those 6 out of 12 random checks from season 1 of TOS and season 1 of TNG.


Would you like some more examples?
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Re: Warp strafing and the importance of DS9

Post by WATCH-MAN »

Prometheus Unbound wrote:
WATCH-MAN wrote:
Batman wrote:Yeah. It's not like Kirk used to Warp straight out of orbit routinely. Oh wait, he did
Please provide evidence for Kirk being used to warp straight out of orbit as part of a regular procedure rather than for a special reason.
TOS did this all the damned time.



The Man Trap:

[...]

Miri:

[...]

Dagger of the Mind:

[...]

3 out of 6 random episodes from season 1 I checked.
That's all I asked for: Evidence.

On the other side - three out of six does not prove that leaving orbit with warp is part of a regular procedure and neither does it proves that they are doing it "all the damned time".

Furthermore they used only warp one. It supports the notion that they are slower within a solar system and do not really use warp-speeds.

Considering the events of TPM, one could even wonder if this is really warp speed at all.
          • Scotty:
          And the engines, Admiral: they've yet to be even tested at warp power.
          • [...]
          • Scotty:
          Intermix set. Bridge, impulse power at your discretion.
          • [...]
          • Kirk:
          Impulse power, Mister Sulu. Ahead, warp point five.
          • [...]
          • Kirk:
          Captain's log, stardate 7412.6. one point eight hours from launch. In order to intercept the intruder at the earliest possible time, we must now risk engaging warp drive while still within the solar system.
They did not engaged their warp drive and had only impulse power - and yet Kirk ordered warp point five. We should consider that there may be a difference between warp speed without warp drive and warp speed with warp drive. Warp one may also be possible without engaging the warp drive.

Prometheus Unbound wrote:
Please provide evidence for Picard ordering warp speed while still in orbit as part of a regular procedure rather than for a special reason.
The Big Goodbye they engage warp (visually) whilst in orbit
Haven (Engages warp in orbit)
Code of Honour (Engages warp in orbit)

... this is just season 1 and again, 3 out of 6 I randomly checked.

Want me to keep going?
Yes.

And I still have to check if what you claim is correct.
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Re: Warp strafing and the importance of DS9

Post by Lord Revan »

there's at least 1 case of a ship going into warp inside of a star's corona (it was BoP commanded Kurn son of Mogh during the civil war arc in the episode Redemption (part 2)) and it was explictly stated that warp drive was used. Seeing how massive a star is I can't see why going to warp on orbit of a m-class planet would be so strange.

Going to warp from orbit might not be standard, but if could make static defenses obsolete by warp strafing them, it would be used that's why the fact that in-system warp is possible is important and the question is in-system standard policy is at most secondary and more likely irrelevant.

we got highly Xenophobic species like the tholians who wouldn't give a damn about what others thought if something gave them an edge and know I can't quote a line where a tholian says "we don't give a damn about others" since no such line exists, but their Xenophobic isolationism has been part of their racial character since their first apparance.
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Re: Warp strafing and the importance of DS9

Post by WATCH-MAN »

Prometheus Unbound wrote:
WATCH-MAN wrote: I simply have asked you to provide evidence for your claim that
  • Kirk is used to warp straight out of orbit as part of a regular procedure rather than for a special reason and
  • Picard orders warp speed while still in orbit as part of a regular procedure rather than for a special reason.
These were your claims and I simply wondered if they are true, if what we really know about the Star Trek universe from what we have seen on-screen supports such conclusions.
I know you weren't asking me but as above, I've given 6 examples. I got those 6 out of 12 random checks from season 1 of TOS and season 1 of TNG.


Would you like some more examples?
Yes.

To prove that warping straight out of orbit is part of a regular procedure rather than something done for a special reason, we need as much evidence as we can get.
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Re: Warp strafing and the importance of DS9

Post by Prometheus Unbound »

To prove that warping straight out of orbit is part of a regular procedure rather than something done for a special reason, we need as much evidence as we can get.

How many examples would be appropriate, since 6 random ones from the first seasons isn't enough?

would you like 6 more examples?

12 more?
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Re: Warp strafing and the importance of DS9

Post by Lord Revan »

Yes.

To prove that warping straight out of orbit is part of a regular procedure rather than something done for a special reason, we need as much evidence as we can get.
No we don't, I've already explained why it's a secondary consern at most.

I'm gonna tell you a little secret about military tactics, if there's a tactic that allows you to easily achive an objective with minimal casualities on your side it will become standard practice and warp strafing again stationary targets since such a tactic unless there's a reason why that's not viable. Therefore it doesn't matter if warping in-system isn't standard practice it's possible and nothing you've shown indicates that it's so risky that warp strafing wouldn't be done because of that (granted that's largely because you shown jackshit as typical but that's besides them point).
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Re: Warp strafing and the importance of DS9

Post by Prometheus Unbound »

The Big Goodbye
Code of Honour
Haven
Angel One
When the bough breaks
Symbiosis
We'll always have Paris
The Neutral Zone

The Child (not in orbit but were in a star system near a star)
The Outrageous Okona
Unnatural Selection
Contagion
The Icarus Factor
Samaritan Snare
Peak Performance


That's up to season 2 of TNG. Would you like some more examples or is this enough of a pattern so far?

I'm not bothering with the quotes, to find the scenes just skip to 40:00 time frame on each episode or thereabouts and watch the (usually) last couple of sentences.

All of those were in orbit of a planet directly and visually or those where it's off screen, it was shown in a previous shot they're still in orbit.
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Re: Warp strafing and the importance of DS9

Post by Lord Revan »

Don't bother it's a pointless tangent anyway as I've pointed out twice already. It doesn't matter whether it's a standard policy or not, it's possible and as I've also said if in-system warp was a route making stations like DS9 insignifigant from military standpoint it would have been used. Watch-man has yet to show that in-system warp is so risky that even powers like the Borg or the Dominion avoid using it due to the risk.

the fact that DS9 is signifigant from a military standpoint means warp strafing it isn't viable but unless it's shown that in-system warp poses a major risk to the ships using it, whether in-system warp is standard policy for Starfleet or not is a red herring or some type of red fish anway ;).
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Re: Warp strafing and the importance of DS9

Post by WATCH-MAN »

I think that there is a difference between something that is possible but dangerous and only done if absolutely necessary and regular procedure.

All events that were referred to could be exceptions - not the norm - not something that is done with levity.

In the episode Redemption, the bird of prey hat lost it's aft-shield and was pursued by two other bird of preys. Kurn had nothing to loose by going to warp within a solar system. Such an example says nothing about regular procedure.
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Re: Warp strafing and the importance of DS9

Post by Lord Revan »

then SHOW US THAT IT IS SO RISKY!

We know that the Dominion would rather risk fighting the defenses of DS9 at Sublight instead of strafing from the safety of warp, so that risk must be quite high as the founders aren't known to care about the solids they rule.

Yet you've shown us nothing, not a single thing.

the thing about Redemtion it was in close orbit of a STAR, you known that the Sun has more mass then the rest of solar system combinied, if going to warp from the orbit of an typical m-class planet posed signifigant enough risk that it done rarely because of that risk, then going to warp from orbit of a star would outright impossible.
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