How vast is the UFP? And what is travel like?

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Re: How vast is the UFP? And what is travel like?

Post by Sea Skimmer » 2016-12-12 02:50pm

If the Federation really had a sphere claimed them the Klingons and Romulans might curve around it and not actually be that far from each other. I agree though in general it would make most sense if the border was T junction. TNG was totally thinking that way, but then DS9 threw a wrench into that with the Klingons attacking the Cardassians.

I tend to think the Federation is very vast but its claimed space might be non continuous. More or less space powers might not recognize sweeping claims to volume based on just a few outposts, warp drive being fairly slow on galactic scales, so big zones may exist with no recognized claims that are used for transit and exploration that might otherwise fall into a cubic or spherical radius around settlements. The major powers would certainly settle colonies specifically to oppose each other, and so borders might be long but the territory behind them 'thin' in many directions. Such colonies might also be trading with each other a lot more then is allowed by central governments too, since even the Federation is run by a bunch of corrupt insane admirals.
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Re: How vast is the UFP? And what is travel like?

Post by Q99 » 2016-12-12 03:03pm

I dig that map!

And yea, putting the Romulans and Klingons that far apart is odd even given TOS knowledge- they traded ships once, after all.

Really, though, they should all be blobs. There's over, under, around.... there should be pockets largely unexplored even near all three, and so on. Sometimes the borders should blob out, constrict and go through a narrower area, then blob out again as exploration connected a cluster of species who'd already explored, and so on.
Prometheus Unbound wrote: They have 150 member worlds and probably thousands of colonies. Some colonies are only 20 people, some are just outposts, some have several thousand or millions.
Yes, characters have said the Federation has 150 worlds and over a thousand worlds, which like you I interpret as 150~ worlds with people, homeworlds or highly populous places like Risa and etc., then 900~ colonies, often those ones we see that are, like, one city.

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Re: How vast is the UFP? And what is travel like?

Post by Khaat » 2016-12-12 03:04pm

Well, it was pre-TNG (1975), so *shrug*. Klingons and Romulans had encountered/dealt with each other in TOS: the Enterprise Incident had Romulans rolling in Klingon cruisers.

I did appreciate how they placed episodes (notably by ships lost, or worlds encountered: Cestus III, Gothos, etc.)
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Re: How vast is the UFP? And what is travel like?

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2016-12-12 03:07pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:If the Federation really had a sphere claimed them the Klingons and Romulans might curve around it and not actually be that far from each other. I agree though in general it would make most sense if the border was T junction. TNG was totally thinking that way, but then DS9 threw a wrench into that with the Klingons attacking the Cardassians.

I tend to think the Federation is very vast but its claimed space might be non continuous. More or less space powers might not recognize sweeping claims to volume based on just a few outposts, warp drive being fairly slow on galactic scales, so big zones may exist with no recognized claims that are used for transit and exploration that might otherwise fall into a cubic or spherical radius around settlements. The major powers would certainly settle colonies specifically to oppose each other, and so borders might be long but the territory behind them 'thin' in many directions. Such colonies might also be trading with each other a lot more then is allowed by central governments too, since even the Federation is run by a bunch of corrupt insane admirals.
Strictly speaking, of course, the admiralty does not run the Federation- it runs Starfleet. Which does appear to be the most prominent branch in the Federation government, though that could be simply the fact that the shows are shown primarily from a Starfleet perspective.
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Re: How vast is the UFP? And what is travel like?

Post by Sea Skimmer » 2016-12-12 03:33pm

Realistically though the Federation only has starfleet out and telling them what 'reality' really is, everything else is down to whatever local government might exist in colonies and member worlds, any of which could be corrupt too. When random stuff happens its Starfleet that responds. They don't have a star going customs service or actual SPACE POLICE that we ever see as a check.

Which means as soon as you get out of a local systems sensor range its instant space warp wild west! Less someone does something about that...
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Re: How vast is the UFP? And what is travel like?

Post by Captain Seafort » 2016-12-12 04:16pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:If the Federation really had a sphere claimed them the Klingons and Romulans might curve around it and not actually be that far from each other. I agree though in general it would make most sense if the border was T junction. TNG was totally thinking that way, but then DS9 threw a wrench into that with the Klingons attacking the Cardassians.
Not necessarily - I've always inferred that the fact that they had to use DS9 as a jumping-off point for the attack meant that the fleet had to cross the Federation to reach Cardassian territory. In that respect the stories of Jem'Hadar ships taking short cuts through Romulan space, and later of the Romulans attacking Dominion positions along their mutual border is more of a spanner in the works of the TNG layout of the Cardassians being opposite the Klingons and Romulans.
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Re: How vast is the UFP? And what is travel like?

Post by Sea Skimmer » 2016-12-12 04:28pm

The Klingons didn't need the station to invade, they attacked it because Dukat and the government of Cardassia fled to the station. Certainly though the borders are complicated, and all but have to overlap considerably, no 2D map is likely to work.
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Re: How vast is the UFP? And what is travel like?

Post by Captain Seafort » 2016-12-12 04:35pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:The Klingons didn't need the station to invade, they attacked it because Dukat and the government of Cardassia fled to the station.
I'm talking about the fleet's initial concentration at the station for shore leave at the start of the episode, not the attack.
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Re: How vast is the UFP? And what is travel like?

Post by Sea Skimmer » 2016-12-12 05:22pm

I just thought of it as shore leave for warriors to blow off cash before death in battle, but I can see your point.

My feeling was the Klingons were going around the Federation somehow. They took and retained plants in Cardassian space after they broke the treaty with the Federation, they must have had some way to support them.
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Re: How vast is the UFP? And what is travel like?

Post by seanrobertson » 2016-12-20 04:59pm

Crazedwraith wrote:I think the 70 years figure for Voyager was specified to be 'at max warp' though?
Janeway said, "Even at maximum speeds, it would take 75 years to reach the Federation." That has to mean maximum sustainable speed; i.e., something closer to cruising speed, not their absolute max Let's Get The Fuck Outta Here, pedal to the metal best. (After all, "The 37s" established that warp 9.9 was 4 billion mi./sec., and "Unimatrix Zero" saw them cover two l.y. in two hours.)

Even though the Voyager was more advanced and faster than the E-D, the latter could theoretically manage 9,000c in "Where No One Has Gone Before" -- and kindly recall that the Voyager topped out at warp 9.975. The E-D later managed 9.6 a few times IIRC, but on her maiden voyage, Data projected they could "only" attain 9.8 "at extreme risk."

Mike concluded that the E-D could maintain 2,700c for unsustained but periods certainly longer than minutes or a few hours; at the same time, I think he correctly estimated that she could hit 9kc in a quick burst. Again: think the difference between typical running speeds and an outright Uwe Boll sprint :)

I cannot speak too much to the TOS examples, but when it comes to Trek V:

A. One could make a very convincing argument that most of the film was a dream sequence: the silly number of Enterprise decks, generic Klingons out to get Kirk, meeting yet another "god" who was maleovent, Uhura seducing those guys with that ridiculous dance, Spock having a heretofore unknown brother, the center of the galaxy looking nothing like what astronomy suggests ... Shit, even the bad comedy about the E-A's shitty state AND more of that tired "help us, Obi-Kirk! Your ship and/or command experience are the only ones in this sector to save the day!" spiel makes zero sense.

I mean, wasn't the E-A fully operational at the whale movie's end? And now, it's falling apart so bad that Kirk can't even make a log entry from some Future Kindle that has a fucking SPRING behind its screen? :Lol:

Yeah. Trek 5 is his campsite nightmare, exacerbated by the combo of bourbon, beans and the sugar from the "marshmelons.". ;)

B. It was real, but the crap about the "center of the galaxy" is understood as center of the *known* galaxy.


As to the greater topic, those cadet assholes in "Valiant" claimed their training on that ship, which isn't Starfleet's fastest, was to circumnavigate the "entire Federation." I fully embrace Picard's FC statement, but it needn't mean the Federation is 8,000 l.y. from one end to another, as countless posters before me have said.
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Re: How vast is the UFP? And what is travel like?

Post by Crazedwraith » 2016-12-20 05:39pm

seanrobertson wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:I think the 70 years figure for Voyager was specified to be 'at max warp' though?
Janeway said, "Even at maximum speeds, it would take 75 years to reach the Federation." That has to mean maximum sustainable speed; i.e., something closer to cruising speed, not their absolute max Let's Get The Fuck Outta Here, pedal to the metal best. (After all, "The 37s" established that warp 9.9 was 4 billion mi./sec., and "Unimatrix Zero" saw them cover two l.y. in two hours.)

Based on that quote alone I wouldn't assume it has to mean that. I'd interpret that myself as meaning 'If we could go peddle to the metal all the way it would take 75 years, in reality it will take much longer'

But if the figures line up with it being cruise speed then coolio. They certainly always talked like 70/75 years was the exact number when they knocked years off it with one-off gimmicks.
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Re: How vast is the UFP? And what is travel like?

Post by Tribble » 2016-12-20 06:48pm

Crazedwraith wrote:
seanrobertson wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:I think the 70 years figure for Voyager was specified to be 'at max warp' though?
Janeway said, "Even at maximum speeds, it would take 75 years to reach the Federation." That has to mean maximum sustainable speed; i.e., something closer to cruising speed, not their absolute max Let's Get The Fuck Outta Here, pedal to the metal best. (After all, "The 37s" established that warp 9.9 was 4 billion mi./sec., and "Unimatrix Zero" saw them cover two l.y. in two hours.)

Based on that quote alone I wouldn't assume it has to mean that. I'd interpret that myself as meaning 'If we could go peddle to the metal all the way it would take 75 years, in reality it will take much longer'

But if the figures line up with it being cruise speed then coolio. They certainly always talked like 70/75 years was the exact number when they knocked years off it with one-off gimmicks.
It would make sense that ships within Federation space could average higher cruising speeds than those outside Fed space given that they would able to refuel, resupply, perform maintenance etc. Voyager did experience power / supply problems in the early seasons when the writers were still bothering with the concept that a ship on the other side of the galaxy with no support is going to run into some issues.
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Re: How vast is the UFP? And what is travel like?

Post by Prometheus Unbound » 2016-12-21 09:26am

seanrobertson wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote: The E-D later managed 9.6 a few times IIRC, but on her maiden voyage, Data projected they could "only" attain 9.8 "at extreme risk."
They managed 9.8 and did a saucer separation at that speed.

WORF: We're at nine point four, sir.
TASHA: Hostile is now beginning to overtake us, sir.
PICARD: Are you sure?
DATA: Hostile's velocity is already warp nine point six, sir. Shall I put them on the main viewer?
PICARD: Reverse angle.
DATA: Magnifying viewer image.
TASHA: Hostile's velocity is nine point seven, sir.
PICARD: Worf, inform the engine room we need more.
DATA: Engine room attempting to comply, sir, but they caution us
PICARD: Go to yellow alert. Arm aft photon torpedoes. Place them on ready status.
TASHA: Torpedoes to ready, sir.
TASHA: Hostile now at warp nine point eight, sir.
WORF: Our velocity is only nine point five, sir.
DATA: Projection, sir. We may be able to match hostile's nine point eight, sir. But at extreme risk.
TASHA: Now reading the hostile at warp nine point nine, sir.
PICARD: Now hear this. Print-out message, urgent, all stations on all decks. Prepare for emergency saucer sever. You will command the saucer section, Lieutenant.


Earlier on (9.4) Picard states: "Continue Accelerating" - and he doesn't null that order. Enterprise continues accelerating through 9.5, 9.6, 9.7....




They did Warp 9.6 (possibly higher, just not stated) in The Best of Both Worlds.

They did 9.65 (audible reading by Geordi) in Q Who. 20 seconds later or so he contacts the captain saying "That's it captain, that's all I can give you" but they don't say what speed it is. I presume 9.8 same as Enc@FP but hey ho.

But yeah nothing ever above 9.8 and 9.6 is enough to cause stress and damage on the engines after a lot of use - needs repairing (see The Chase)
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Re: How vast is the UFP? And what is travel like?

Post by FedRebel » 2017-03-23 08:26pm

(yeah, yeah, old thread, but still first page top half)

On TOS-TNG discrepancies, the TMP Novelization (Preface) indicates TOS was exaggerated propaganda. Out Of Universe, the canon backstory wasn't really hashed out until season 3.

As far as ST5..pretty much everyone has disowned it. As an aside it has been hypothesized in the past that a wormhole 'shortcuts' to the core. Or we could say Bones accidentally mixed some wild shrooms with the beans, the whole event was the three tripping balls concurrently courtesy of Spock's telepathic powers enhanced by the shrooms.

TNG is where the canon is more firmly codified from the start, it'd be less headache inducing to focus on TNG Era metrics. Anyway there's plenty of inconsistencies between and within TNG/DS9/VOY (...and ENT uses TNG metrics...not TOS ones.)


As for Picard's statements to Lily, he was oversimplifying to placate a p....person from the past, his statement in the context of conversation shouldn't be taken as gospel.

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Re: How vast is the UFP? And what is travel like?

Post by Q99 » 2017-03-24 08:33am

Crazedwraith wrote: Based on that quote alone I wouldn't assume it has to mean that. I'd interpret that myself as meaning 'If we could go peddle to the metal all the way it would take 75 years, in reality it will take much longer'

But if the figures line up with it being cruise speed then coolio. They certainly always talked like 70/75 years was the exact number when they knocked years off it with one-off gimmicks.
Cruise speed is my view.

"75 years. Less if we find ways to max our speed more, more if we spend a lot of time for stops and repairs."


Hm, how many big shortcuts did they get...? Kes throwing them past the core of Borg space and the Slipstream are the two big ones that come to mind. Plus the transwarp conduit at the very end.

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Re: How vast is the UFP? And what is travel like?

Post by NecronLord » 2017-03-24 10:06am

Dark Frontier took 15 years off their trip also when they got a transwarp coil.
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Re: How vast is the UFP? And what is travel like?

Post by FaxModem1 » 2017-03-24 10:08am

Q99 wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote: Based on that quote alone I wouldn't assume it has to mean that. I'd interpret that myself as meaning 'If we could go peddle to the metal all the way it would take 75 years, in reality it will take much longer'

But if the figures line up with it being cruise speed then coolio. They certainly always talked like 70/75 years was the exact number when they knocked years off it with one-off gimmicks.
Cruise speed is my view.

"75 years. Less if we find ways to max our speed more, more if we spend a lot of time for stops and repairs."


Hm, how many big shortcuts did they get...? Kes throwing them past the core of Borg space and the Slipstream are the two big ones that come to mind. Plus the transwarp conduit at the very end.
For shortcuts:
Kes's leap in 'The Gift' cut them about 9,500 lightyears, which they estimate is about 10 years off their trip.
Slipstream drive in 'Hope and Fear' cut about 300 lightyears from their journey.
'Night' cut two years from their journey due to wormhole
'Timeless' took off ten years from their journey due to Quantum Slipstream Drive and time travel shenanigans.
'Dark Frontier' takes off 20,000 lightyears from their journey before the transwarp coils burn out. Janeway estimates that this takes about 15 years from their journey.
'The Voyager Conspiracy' has them leap forward by catapult about 'thirty sectors of space', or three years off of their journey.
After that is Endgame, where it takes them all the way to Earth.

So, starting in season 4, Voyager found 7 shortcuts that helped them get quite a ways forward.

I think this also gives an estimate of how many lightyears it takes to travel for a duration of time, if anyone wants to do the math.
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Re: How vast is the UFP? And what is travel like?

Post by NecronLord » 2017-03-24 10:13am

I don't think Dark Frontier is 20,000 ly. They hope it could do 'up to' that, then the captain's log at the end says it was 15 years.

I looked at this last week for the borg FTL stuff.
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Re: How vast is the UFP? And what is travel like?

Post by FaxModem1 » 2017-03-24 10:18am

NecronLord wrote:I don't think Dark Frontier is 20,000 ly. They hope it could do 'up to' that, then the captain's log at the end says it was 15 years.

I looked at this last week for the borg FTL stuff.
I'm going by what Janeway says.

From Memory Alpha:
"Captain's Log, Stardate 52619.2. We got another 20,000 light years out of the transwarp coil before it gave out. I figure we're a good fifteen years closer to home."
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Re: How vast is the UFP? And what is travel like?

Post by FireNexus » 2017-03-24 10:36am

seanrobertson wrote: Again: think the difference between typical running speeds and an outright Uwe Boll sprint :)
He gets a lot of training having to escape angry nerds, I guess?
I had a Bill Maher quote here. But fuck him for his white privelegy "joke".

All the rest? Too long.

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Re: How vast is the UFP? And what is travel like?

Post by Captain Seafort » 2017-03-24 02:02pm

FaxModem1 wrote:I think this also gives an estimate of how many lightyears it takes to travel for a duration of time, if anyone wants to do the math.
Roughly speaking? About three ly/day long-term sustained, eight ly/day short term. Or 1kc vs 3kc if you prefer it that way.
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Re: How vast is the UFP? And what is travel like?

Post by Q99 » 2017-03-24 02:09pm

So they had cut things down to somewhat past halfway not counting the end. Pretty nice, it implies if they keep finding shortcuts around that rate, they'll make it back in a not-too-unreasonable 10-14 years.

Whatever the case, they've brought enough tech with them to help push the Federation ahead a good amount.

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Re: How vast is the UFP? And what is travel like?

Post by Crazedwraith » 2017-03-24 02:51pm

Incidentaly thought; if they'd got to about 4/7s of their journey home by that point. Should they still have been in the delta quadrant? Shouldn't they have crossed over into the far reaches of the alpha or beta quadrants?
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Re: How vast is the UFP? And what is travel like?

Post by FaxModem1 » 2017-03-24 03:00pm

I also forgot that Q gives them information about a wormhole that takes a couple years off their journey on his last appearance in 'Q2'. They don't say how many it took, but it shaved off a couple years. According to Endgame, Voyager took about 16 more years to arrive back at Earth before Future Janeway time traveled. So, for their 75 year journey, they had a remarkable 23 year journey.

It's also noteworthy that thanks to Voyager being stranded, Starfleet made the Pathfinder project, and constructed the MIDAS array to communicate with them. Galactic phone calls(thanks to Barclay) are now possible because of Voyager's journey. Beforehand, they relied on subspace relays.

This is noteworthy because before, relays were necessary to communicate from place to place.

Crazedwraith wrote:Incidentaly thought; if they'd got to about 4/7s of their journey home by that point. Should they still have been in the delta quadrant? Shouldn't they have crossed over into the far reaches of the alpha or beta quadrants?
People have assumed that they were planning on going around the galactic core, which might have added a few years to their route.
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Re: How vast is the UFP? And what is travel like?

Post by Crazedwraith » 2017-03-24 03:03pm

FaxModem1 wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:Incidentaly thought; if they'd got to about 4/7s of their journey home by that point. Should they still have been in the delta quadrant? Shouldn't they have crossed over into the far reaches of the alpha or beta quadrants?
People have assumed that they were planning on going around the galactic core, which might have added a few years to their route.
Not sure how that's relevant?

In fact if you're skirting the core you're even more likely to end up in a different quadrant earlier.
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