CBS/Paramount new stupid fanfilm rules

[Q99]

Which is a stance that isn't too rare- Games Workshop killed a German-made Warhammer 40k fan film.

Which was darn retarded, Yep with major theatrical releases, memeticly huge MMO's. (Blizzard's "Warcraft" and "Starcraft" Heresy's.) The last thing Warhammer needs is a fan film to help spread word of mouth an bring more fans in.

Btw, *that* happened because German law was even stricter on allowing stuff risking opening up the rights, so my understanding is they'd have liked to let it slide but they had to make a choice.

[Simon_Jester]

Sorry, I spoke imprecisely and absent-mindedly used "copyright."

Basically, though, the problem is that enforcing this rule is bad for fandom, because it creates an incentive for corporations to defend their trademarks more fiercely in order to deter imitators with actual budgets that might pose a threat to their bottom line. If Paramount can get away with not cracking down on Phase II and still be able to punish Disney for trying to make their own Star Trek movies, that is a better and more favorable ecosystem for fans than a world where they have to crack down on Phase II in order to retain any kind of exclusivity whatsoever.

Which is, indeed, exactly what is happening- the rising complexity, quality, ambition, and (it seems) profitability of fan-made Star Trek content has created a situation where Paramount and CBS have no financially sensible choice but to sue.

[Broomstick]

Strictly speaking, as IP holder, Paramount is not required to allow ANY fan made productions.

I remember when James Blish had exclusive rights to do any sort of writing/novelization/script adaptions to print, which ended only with his death in the mid-1970's. Which meant a writer like Harlan Ellison who wrote "City on the Edge of Forever", was legally barred from writing the print version of the script for the book-buying fan. (The script was first printed for the mass market in, if I recall, 1976 or 1977 but that was in fact after Blish was deceased) The plethora of writers in the Star Trek (and Star Wars) universe came significantly later.

Paramount has the legal authority to dictate who can and can't use their IP and in what manner, and to impose whatever restrictions they desire, and that was true long before the DMCA took effect. Fans do not own the IP, they never have. They are granted only those privileges the IP holder wants to give them and no more.

Frankly, given how Paramount acted from the early 1970's through 1990's I'm rather surprised they allow this much.

If someone has an idea for a longer script, or something edgy, they are welcome to ask Paramount for permission. Why not? - "The Trouble With Tribbles" was the first professional sale of David Gerrold and was essentially a fan idea that Paramount decided to make official. Stranger things have happened. But such events are rare, and anyone going that route should be cognizant that while acceptance is possible it is also unlikely.

[Q99]

Sorry, I spoke imprecisely and absent-mindedly used "copyright."

Basically, though, the problem is that enforcing this rule is bad for fandom, because it creates an incentive for corporations to defend their trademarks more fiercely in order to deter imitators with actual budgets that might pose a threat to their bottom line. If Paramount can get away with not cracking down on Phase II and still be able to punish Disney for trying to make their own Star Trek movies, that is a better and more favorable ecosystem for fans than a world where they have to crack down on Phase II in order to retain any kind of exclusivity whatsoever.

Which is, indeed, exactly what is happening- the rising complexity, quality, ambition, and (it seems) profitability of fan-made Star Trek content has created a situation where Paramount and CBS have no financially sensible choice but to sue.

It doesn't create that reason, though. It's a reflection of existing laws- and a lot of people I know were getting nervous about how far Anaxar was going before this happened on the grounds that it pretty much forced a response.

Also, odds are good they aren't going to be overly strict in enforcing it, they just want to be in position to make it clear for other Anaxar-like productions that do cross the line.

[Lost Soal]

While I don't really follow Trek fan projects I had a look and Renegades has annouonced their dumping anything to do with Trek and continuing on as normal as its own franchise. They clearly believe the have enough support now that they can continue on without the Trek name. Be interesting to see how the other series react.

[FaxModem1]

While I don't really follow Trek fan projects I had a look and Renegades has annouonced their dumping anything to do with Trek and continuing on as normal as its own franchise. They clearly believe the have enough support now that they can continue on without the Trek name. Be interesting to see how the other series react.

That's probably for the best, Renegades didn't really seem to fit in with Star Trek anyway, and seemed more to be banking on name association to get off the ground.

[Solauren]

CBS/Paramount has issued rules for making fan material, and people are bitching.

My reply to them:
"They are letting you make stuff still, no matter how restrictive the rules are. You don't like it, MAKE A DIFFERENT FILM".

I remember back when the internet was getting off the ground, and companies started going after fan material online. i.e Homebrew rpg stuff for D&D + Rifts. People went nuts then too. The result was a customer drop off. (For TSR, it was also a quality issue with 2nd edition AD&D products, but that's not here not there).

This is not going to have a negative effect on CBS/Paramount in the least. Star Trek is a massive juggernaught, that keeps making more money. People are still going to go to the movies, watch any TV shows that get produced, go to the conventions, and buy the overpriced merchandise.

And there will be fans out there that still make fan-films, and put them online, and manage to do so in a way that threads between the rules.

[Simon_Jester]

My only complaints against this are that the rules are excessive in one point of specific detail (length restrictions)... And that they are trying to impose an unethical and unreasonable constraint (against any current or former Trek actor participating, and against any person who works professionally in things like video, sound editing, and television from participating).

They have the right to make rules even if I disagree with them on precisely what those rules can and should be.

Strictly speaking, as IP holder, Paramount is not required to allow ANY fan made productions.

Exactly- and they have rather more incentive to prohibit fan production, if they're worried about the courts ruling that they've lost their right to control over Star Trek, as soon as any fan productions are tolerated.

I will note that Paramount themselves probably knows that the value of their IP depends on their fanbase, which takes interest in Star Trek to rather cartoonish levels sometimes. And so long as they're not in the business of making Star Trek TV, or any Trek content at all for that matter more than once every four years or so... the fan productions arguably do them more harm than good. So long as they don't become for-profit operations.

It doesn't create that reason, though. It's a reflection of existing laws- and a lot of people I know were getting nervous about how far Anaxar was going before this happened on the grounds that it pretty much forced a response.

Also, odds are good they aren't going to be overly strict in enforcing it, they just want to be in position to make it clear for other Anaxar-like productions that do cross the line.

Ahem: Axanar.

But yes, this is exactly what I'm getting at. The problem is that by publishing highly restrictive guidelines on (in particular) the length of fan productions, they may have gone a little too far for their own good.

[Q99]

My only complaints against this are that the rules are excessive in one point of specific detail (length restrictions)... And that they are trying to impose an unethical and unreasonable constraint (against any current or former Trek actor participating, and against any person who works professionally in things like video, sound editing, and television from participating).

They have the right to make rules even if I disagree with them on precisely what those rules can and should be.

I think the 'no former Trek people,' one is so there's no confusion about them 'secretly supporting,' a production, or people mistaking it for real by following credits from one to another.

But yes, this is exactly what I'm getting at. The problem is that by publishing highly restrictive guidelines on (in particular) the length of fan productions, they may have gone a little too far for their own good.

I agree the length is definitely the most annoying part.

[Rogue 9]

The most annoying thing is that J.J. Abrams stood up in front of a seminar at a convention a couple of months ago and said the Axanar lawsuit was going away and, well... it clearly isn't. Then CBS and Paramount issued a statement saying they're in settlement talks, and... they seem not to be. I get their need to enforce their copyrights, but they should pick one. Clearly long, well-done, and/or serialized fan films don't inherently threaten the value of the IP all that much; if they did, Disney wouldn't have paid billions of dollars for the rights to Star Wars after the likes of Revelations and I.M.P.S. went unchallenged by Lucasfilm.

[Prometheus Unbound]

This is all cos of Axanaar. Who are now running a campaign to get people to not watch the new Trek show with the aim to get it cancelled. If Axanaar can't get their way, then Star Trek shouldn't be allowed at all....

[Q99]

This is all cos of Axanaar. Who are now running a campaign to get people to not watch the new Trek show with the aim to get it cancelled. If Axanaar can't get their way, then Star Trek shouldn't be allowed at all....

Yes, picking a fight with a giant company that's been making Trek much longer than they have is not the best of ideas.


At some point some people who work on fan stuff gets it into their heads that, "we've done enough, that matters more than any technical ownership." This generally results in bad decisions, like wanting to kickstart a documentary about their legal fight with CBS (they changed their mind on that).

[Elheru Aran]

The most annoying thing is that J.J. Abrams stood up in front of a seminar at a convention a couple of months ago and said the Axanar lawsuit was going away and, well... it clearly isn't. Then CBS and Paramount issued a statement saying they're in settlement talks, and... they seem not to be. I get their need to enforce their copyrights, but they should pick one. Clearly long, well-done, and/or serialized fan films don't inherently threaten the value of the IP all that much; if they did, Disney wouldn't have paid billions of dollars for the rights to Star Wars after the likes of Revelations and I.M.P.S. went unchallenged by Lucasfilm.

From what I understand Lucasfilm has somewhat of a different relationship with its fanbase. As long as the fans don't attempt to infringe on the copyright by making a profit off it without official authorization, they don't care what you do and may even tacitly or openly encourage it. Like the "Ryan vs. Dorkman" lightsaber videos from, geez, probably 15 years ago now; they hired the guy that made those. Similarly, they have an unofficial relationship with the 501st Legion-- they've made it clear that they're cool with the organization having a bunch of stormtroopers, Vaders, Boba Fetts, and other Star Wars characters running around, even making appearances at charity events and the like; the only stipulation is, again, that no profit is made. Disney is expected to largely allow this status quo to continue if chatter on the RPF is anything to go by.

[FaxModem1]

So, was Alec Peters really just that greedy with Axanar? Or was there a mistake he made along the way with kick-starter rewards? I also heard that there was bad blood between him and Tony Todd for some reason.

[Rogue 9]

This is all cos of Axanaar. Who are now running a campaign to get people to not watch the new Trek show with the aim to get it cancelled. If Axanaar can't get their way, then Star Trek shouldn't be allowed at all....

They are? Because they seem to be actively discouraging people from attempting a boycott of the movie. As for Small Access, well... let's face facts, that was going to happen anyway. People pool fee service subscriptions all the time even when they're not angry with the creators; it just makes economic sense. I know I certainly wasn't going to pony up a subscription fee just for a new Star Trek show; if they can't be arsed to broadcast it, I'm not going to shell out a bunch of money for the privilege.

[Broomstick]

The most annoying thing is that J.J. Abrams stood up in front of a seminar at a convention a couple of months ago and said the Axanar lawsuit was going away and, well... it clearly isn't. Then CBS and Paramount issued a statement saying they're in settlement talks, and... they seem not to be. I get their need to enforce their copyrights, but they should pick one. Clearly long, well-done, and/or serialized fan films don't inherently threaten the value of the IP all that much; if they did, Disney wouldn't have paid billions of dollars for the rights to Star Wars after the likes of Revelations and I.M.P.S. went unchallenged by Lucasfilm.

From what I understand Lucasfilm has somewhat of a different relationship with its fanbase. As long as the fans don't attempt to infringe on the copyright by making a profit off it without official authorization, they don't care what you do and may even tacitly or openly encourage it. Like the "Ryan vs. Dorkman" lightsaber videos from, geez, probably 15 years ago now; they hired the guy that made those. Similarly, they have an unofficial relationship with the 501st Legion-- they've made it clear that they're cool with the organization having a bunch of stormtroopers, Vaders, Boba Fetts, and other Star Wars characters running around, even making appearances at charity events and the like; the only stipulation is, again, that no profit is made. Disney is expected to largely allow this status quo to continue if chatter on the RPF is anything to go by.

^ Remember this for the rest of this post - this is the policy/attitude of Lucasfilms.

So, was Alec Peters really just that greedy with Axanar? Or was there a mistake he made along the way with kick-starter rewards? I also heard that there was bad blood between him and Tony Todd for some reason.

Mostly, I think it's just Paramount. They have always been very restrictive regarding the Star Trek property, these rules are in fact much looser than what was in play for decades.

This underlines what I said before: The intellectual property owner can dictate whether or not others can use the property and imposes whatever limitations the owner desires. Just because Lucasfilm allows something in no way obligates Paramount to do the same thing and vice versa.

[Simon_Jester]

Er yes... we know all that.

There was an undertone in that post of "this is how Star Wars fandom is handled by corporate owners, and perhaps it would be well for Paramount to emulate them."

[RogueIce]

This is all cos of Axanaar. Who are now running a campaign to get people to not watch the new Trek show with the aim to get it cancelled. If Axanaar can't get their way, then Star Trek shouldn't be allowed at all....

They are? Because they seem to be actively discouraging people from attempting a boycott of the movie. As for Small Access, well... let's face facts, that was going to happen anyway. People pool fee service subscriptions all the time even when they're not angry with the creators; it just makes economic sense. I know I certainly wasn't going to pony up a subscription fee just for a new Star Trek show; if they can't be arsed to broadcast it, I'm not going to shell out a bunch of money for the privilege.

They're not discouraging people from seeing the movie because Abrams and Lin were supportive of ending the lawsuit against them.

The "Small Access" thing is pretty blatantly a "FUCK YOU" to CBS though, and is indeed actively trying to sabotage the show: the blog even states as much!

By now, you’ve likely heard that CBS and Paramount have finally, after decades of silence, released a series of guidelines for Star Trek fan films to follow and not get sued. Unfortunately, the guidelines were written by a group of over-caffeinated lawyers and licensing employees with little to no understanding of the concept of Star Trek fandom. In short, these rules would essentially obliterate nearly all past and current Star Trek fan films and series.

From their announcement on StarTrek.com, CBS seems almost proud of themselves, feeling that they’ve done fandom some kind of favor. And even though nearly 200 (as I write this) comments have been posted with about 90% highly negative reactions, I doubt that CBS or Paramount will see the devastating reality of what they’ve done…

…unless we make them see it.

This is absolutely sour grapes on the part of the Axanar creators because CBS didn't let them try and build a fucking studio and careers off of the Star Trek IP.

[Broomstick]

Er yes... we know all that.

There was an undertone in that post of "this is how Star Wars fandom is handled by corporate owners, and perhaps it would be well for Paramount to emulate them."

Paramount has the control of a 50 year old Franchise That Will Not Die. They don't have to accommodate fans. They have profited enormously even when they didn't accommodate the fans. They have no incentive to change.

I agree it would be nice if they changed a few things (length of episodes, for example) but I'm not going to hold my breath.

[Q99]

From what I understand Lucasfilm has somewhat of a different relationship with its fanbase. As long as the fans don't attempt to infringe on the copyright by making a profit off it without official authorization, they don't care what you do and may even tacitly or openly encourage it. Like the "Ryan vs. Dorkman" lightsaber videos from, geez, probably 15 years ago now; they hired the guy that made those. Similarly, they have an unofficial relationship with the 501st Legion-- they've made it clear that they're cool with the organization having a bunch of stormtroopers, Vaders, Boba Fetts, and other Star Wars characters running around, even making appearances at charity events and the like; the only stipulation is, again, that no profit is made. Disney is expected to largely allow this status quo to continue if chatter on the RPF is anything to go by.

Which isn't *that* different from what I think modern CBS/Paramount wants (a bit tighter, but not majorly). No-one's trying to make a whole professional-grade SW series with pro actors, which I'm pretty sure would've gotten Lucasfilms to step up and shut down too.

Ryan vs Dorkman would be ok under these rules if it was a Trek production. Troops, Young Lucas in Love, I think pretty much all the famous Wars fan films.

[Rogue 9]

This is all cos of Axanaar. Who are now running a campaign to get people to not watch the new Trek show with the aim to get it cancelled. If Axanaar can't get their way, then Star Trek shouldn't be allowed at all....

They are? Because they seem to be actively discouraging people from attempting a boycott of the movie. As for Small Access, well... let's face facts, that was going to happen anyway. People pool fee service subscriptions all the time even when they're not angry with the creators; it just makes economic sense. I know I certainly wasn't going to pony up a subscription fee just for a new Star Trek show; if they can't be arsed to broadcast it, I'm not going to shell out a bunch of money for the privilege.

They're not discouraging people from seeing the movie because Abrams and Lin were supportive of ending the lawsuit against them.

The "Small Access" thing is pretty blatantly a "FUCK YOU" to CBS though, and is indeed actively trying to sabotage the show: the blog even states as much!

By now, you’ve likely heard that CBS and Paramount have finally, after decades of silence, released a series of guidelines for Star Trek fan films to follow and not get sued. Unfortunately, the guidelines were written by a group of over-caffeinated lawyers and licensing employees with little to no understanding of the concept of Star Trek fandom. In short, these rules would essentially obliterate nearly all past and current Star Trek fan films and series.

From their announcement on StarTrek.com, CBS seems almost proud of themselves, feeling that they’ve done fandom some kind of favor. And even though nearly 200 (as I write this) comments have been posted with about 90% highly negative reactions, I doubt that CBS or Paramount will see the devastating reality of what they’ve done…

…unless we make them see it.

This is absolutely sour grapes on the part of the Axanar creators because CBS didn't let them try and build a fucking studio and careers off of the Star Trek IP.

Well yes, of course. CBS is, in case you failed to notice, suing them. Having been in that situation, I can say from personal experience that when you're in it, you use every bit of leverage you've fucking got. Also:

(Please note this blog is the opinion of Jonathan Lane, editor of Fan Film Factor, and not that of Axanar Productions)

They're posting about the Fan Film Factor initiative because it benefits them to do so, but it doesn't appear to be their initiative; it only started after the fanfilm guidelines came out, not when the lawsuit was initiated six months ago.

[edaw1982]

Comes across to me, as CBS/Paramount doing the whole
“Hey don’t complain to me Village-Elder! The rebels made us do this! They attacked our patrol, and your village is one of many in the AO. So we have to deny them resources. So what we’re gonna do is burn down your crops and kill your livestock. Not all of’em, and you’ll only be living on the bones of your ass, and barely scraping by. But atleast the rebels won’t get any. That’ll show ‘em. Hey don’t get pissed at us! We’re only doing this to protect ourselves!”

I’m not disputing they have to defend themselves.
But they are going heavy handed as a big “Don’t-fuck-with-us”.

Then when it’s over if it goes in their favour, they’ll probably be all magnanimous and remove the restrictions, hold out the proverbial ring-finger and expect kisses and slobbers for their merciful beneficence.

[edaw1982]

The whole Axenar thing has turned into one giant clusterfuck.

And the only real winners out of it all are gonna be the lawyers.

But that’s pretty much par for the course in lawsuits.

[Simon_Jester]

Er yes... we know all that.

There was an undertone in that post of "this is how Star Wars fandom is handled by corporate owners, and perhaps it would be well for Paramount to emulate them."

Paramount has the control of a 50 year old Franchise That Will Not Die. They don't have to accommodate fans. They have profited enormously even when they didn't accommodate the fans. They have no incentive to change.

Thing is, what distinguishes a Franchise That Will Not Die from one that will die?

One answer is "the fan base." If Paramount persists with a format of only turning out a movie every four or five years, then their fan base is likely to drift away over a decade or two unless they are willing to cultivate the fandom.

[Q99]

Thing is, what distinguishes a Franchise That Will Not Die from one that will die?

One answer is "the fan base." If Paramount persists with a format of only turning out a movie every four or five years, then their fan base is likely to drift away over a decade or two unless they are willing to cultivate the fandom.

The fandom as in conventions, games, novels, cosplay, fanfic, and so on.

Also, there is a trek series in the works.


The fan films are just a fraction of what fandom is, heck it's even a very new part of the fandom to be as big as it is, and they are explicitly allowing most of 'em to be made, if with restrictions.

If someone's really into *that* aspect of the fandom I can quite get being upset, but this isn't an attack on fandom as a whole, nor is it even an attempt to go after fanmovies as a whole.

I’m not disputing they have to defend themselves.
But they are going heavy handed as a big “Don’t-fuck-with-us”.

Then when it’s over if it goes in their favour, they’ll probably be all magnanimous and remove the restrictions, hold out the proverbial ring-finger and expect kisses and slobbers for their merciful beneficence.

A thing is, a lot of these of these pretty much line up with where the defacto, unstated-but-assumed rules are. Or things that weren't assumed but didn't happen anyway (I can't think of any trek fanfilms with gratuitous sex or drug use).

It really isn't all that heavy handed. I could see them loosen up some, but most of these rules are likely there for what they feel is necessary to defend their property. Stuff like the 'no trek actor' thing was likely lawyer-insisted to avoid confusion. Maybe even the length bit might've been legal rather than what they actually want.