UFP out of state research stations

[FaxModem1]

I was re-watching Frame of Mind, and I noted that the premise of Riker's occupation was to locate and find some Federation scientists that were on Tilonus IV, a non-Federation planet, in order to rescue them. the reason for this? The Prime Minister has been assassinated, and the government was gone as there were several factions fighting each other for dominance. The reason the scientists were in danger? Because the factions were looking for advanced tech and knowledge to give them dominance in the fight.

In Devil's Due, a similar thing happens on Ventax II, also a non-Federation member, with the Enterprise rushing to rescue the research team.

Considering the placement of these stations, and the obvious danger of placing them there, I wonder about the purpose of placing it there. Out of universe, these research stations are so that the Enterprise can come help and meet the wacky aliens there. But what's the in-universe reason? Is there a unique object to study on a planet facing political upheaval and revolution that couldn't be found elsewhere?

Why would the Federation endanger its scientists so?

[biostem]

Isn't it possible that things were more stable/friendly when said teams were placed? Perhaps the teams got the go-ahead years ago, under a government/ruler that was either pro-Federation, or at the very least, on friendly terms. They setup their base, and go basically unnoticed, until there's a regime change, and now "those invaders must be dealt with"...

[Solauren]

More then likely, they were jointly established between the UFP + local government. Perhaps as part the process in becoming a Federation member.

[Simon_Jester]

The Federation routinely sends researchers all over the place to study societies and interesting lifeforms, as well as astronomical phenomena. Do we know anything about what kind of research the station did?

[amigocabal]

I was re-watching Frame of Mind, and I noted that the premise of Riker's occupation was to locate and find some Federation scientists that were on Tilonus IV, a non-Federation planet, in order to rescue them. the reason for this? The Prime Minister has been assassinated, and the government was gone as there were several factions fighting each other for dominance. The reason the scientists were in danger? Because the factions were looking for advanced tech and knowledge to give them dominance in the fight.

In Devil's Due, a similar thing happens on Ventax II, also a non-Federation member, with the Enterprise rushing to rescue the research team.

Considering the placement of these stations, and the obvious danger of placing them there, I wonder about the purpose of placing it there. Out of universe, these research stations are so that the Enterprise can come help and meet the wacky aliens there. But what's the in-universe reason? Is there a unique object to study on a planet facing political upheaval and revolution that couldn't be found elsewhere?

Why would the Federation endanger its scientists so?

this does beg the question of why Riker was assigned, and not some Section 31 operatives.

[Lord Revan]

We got to remember that Section 31 is not an official Federation agency, they're a group of (semi-)independent fanatics that use the wording of the federation constitution to appear to be offcial agency but are not sanctioned or controlled by the Federation Council.

So Section 31 operatives were not sent because Section 31 does what they want (almost) and aren't controlled by the Federation Council, IIRC the offcial Federation intelligence service is Starfleet Intelligence.

[U.P. Cinnabar]

I was re-watching Frame of Mind, and I noted that the premise of Riker's occupation was to locate and find some Federation scientists that were on Tilonus IV, a non-Federation planet, in order to rescue them. the reason for this? The Prime Minister has been assassinated, and the government was gone as there were several factions fighting each other for dominance. The reason the scientists were in danger? Because the factions were looking for advanced tech and knowledge to give them dominance in the fight.

In Devil's Due, a similar thing happens on Ventax II, also a non-Federation member, with the Enterprise rushing to rescue the research team.

Considering the placement of these stations, and the obvious danger of placing them there, I wonder about the purpose of placing it there. Out of universe, these research stations are so that the Enterprise can come help and meet the wacky aliens there. But what's the in-universe reason? Is there a unique object to study on a planet facing political upheaval and revolution that couldn't be found elsewhere?

Why would the Federation endanger its scientists so?

Why would the Feds place scientific reserach stations on non-Federation worlds at all, given a) the Prime Directive, observed by citizen and Starfleet officer alike only when it's convenient for them(examples too numerous to mention, but the three illegal regieme changes by solid citizens of the benevolent, peace-loving Federation, namely TNG "Reunion,"(Worf) DS9 "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges,"(William Ross, betraying his friend like a good little Fed drone) and "Tacking Into the Wind"(Worf again) come quickly to mind), b) the wonderful result on Ekos, after solid citizen of the benevolent, peace-loving Federation Professor John Gill, just decided the Ekosians could stand a little good old-fashioned Nazism(TOS: "Patterns Of Force"), c) the wonderful result of solid citizen of the benevolent, peace-loving Federation Captain Ronald Tracy decided to give the Kohms a hand in slaughtering the Horsecla—err, Yangs, for rights to the Fountain of Youth(TOS:"The Omega Glory"), d) the merry, myriad of fuck ups that seem to occur when Fed gear, Fed citizens, and your random Soong-type android decide to either go haywire(TNG: "Who Watches the Watchers?" Star Trek Insurrection), or do something stupid(TNG "Pen Pals," "Homeward"), and d) the wonderful result of solid citizen of the benevolent, peace-loving Federation Admiral Matthew Dougherty, with the consent of the benevolent, peace-loving Federation Council, aided and abetted the S'ona in kidnapping the Baku and stripping their planet of its atmosphere, for the Federation's selfish gain, and with little to no concern for the S'ona's true motives(Star Trek Insurrection)?

Honestly, the Feds would be far better off stationing its reserachers outside any system with a pre-warp civilization, and use disguised drones to observe them via telepresence. If a drone malfunctions, self-destruct the damn thing, before any natives find it and get wise.

If the Feds were as benevolent and as interested in upholding the Prime Directive as they claim to be, that is. If not, well, maybe the Federation needs to drop the pretense they are holier than thou, enlist any cultural anthropologists and other appropriate specialists into their intelligence organizations, and infiltrate non-Federation civilizations that way.

[Khaat]

There has never been a clear definition of when a Federation-allied world joins the Federation (apart from that Vietnam Vet story The Hunted). Picard dodges the "help us" bullet by the "sorry, internal matter!" clause of the Prime Directive.

In First Contact, Riker is undercover doing some ground-work research for a first contact situation. (Oh, and bangs xenophile Bebe Besch, because WWJTKD?)
In Half a Life, Trois mom gets into a thing with a non-Federation scientist trying to save his homeworld's star. Clearly not a Federation member-world, clearly a joint research project (if only for the ride to a similar star to experiment on).
In The Host, Crusher gets jiggy with a Trill, and as a leading Starfleet doctor, she would know, right? Well, no, turns out she didn't. Was the Trill homeworld a Federation member? Survey says: yes? (except that the Trill ambassador is trying to resolve a rebellion among his own people, clearly an internal matter - so do member worlds no longer qualify as independent entities for "internal matters"?) But there was a joint research peace mission involved between the clunky romance scenes. Which would have been much hotter more inclusive with Crusher going girl/girl.
In The Outcast, Riker (jeeze! what is it with this guy?!) gets into a romance with a (non-Federation) scientist during a join research project. Not a Federation member, not a prospective Federation member (as far as I can remember).

Why would the Federation put its scientists in danger? Because that's how they win hearts and minds? It's how they win over a culture after First Contact? It's how they integrate and indoctrinate? It makes for stories that they couldn't otherwise tell?

[amigocabal]

I was re-watching Frame of Mind, and I noted that the premise of Riker's occupation was to locate and find some Federation scientists that were on Tilonus IV, a non-Federation planet, in order to rescue them. the reason for this? The Prime Minister has been assassinated, and the government was gone as there were several factions fighting each other for dominance. The reason the scientists were in danger? Because the factions were looking for advanced tech and knowledge to give them dominance in the fight.

In Devil's Due, a similar thing happens on Ventax II, also a non-Federation member, with the Enterprise rushing to rescue the research team.

Considering the placement of these stations, and the obvious danger of placing them there, I wonder about the purpose of placing it there. Out of universe, these research stations are so that the Enterprise can come help and meet the wacky aliens there. But what's the in-universe reason? Is there a unique object to study on a planet facing political upheaval and revolution that couldn't be found elsewhere?

Why would the Federation endanger its scientists so?

Why would the Feds place scientific reserach stations on non-Federation worlds at all, given a) the Prime Directive, observed by citizen and Starfleet officer alike only when it's convenient for them(examples too numerous to mention, but the three illegal regieme changes by solid citizens of the benevolent, peace-loving Federation, namely TNG "Reunion,"(Worf) DS9 "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges,"(William Ross, betraying his friend like a good little Fed drone) and "Tacking Into the Wind"(Worf again) come quickly to mind), b) the wonderful result on Ekos, after solid citizen of the benevolent, peace-loving Federation Professor John Gill, just decided the Ekosians could stand a little good old-fashioned Nazism(TOS: "Patterns Of Force"), c) the wonderful result of solid citizen of the benevolent, peace-loving Federation Captain Ronald Tracy decided to give the Kohms a hand in slaughtering the Horsecla—err, Yangs, for rights to the Fountain of Youth(TOS:"The Omega Glory"), d) the merry, myriad of fuck ups that seem to occur when Fed gear, Fed citizens, and your random Soong-type android decide to either go haywire(TNG: "Who Watches the Watchers?" Star Trek Insurrection), or do something stupid(TNG "Pen Pals," "Homeward"), and d) the wonderful result of solid citizen of the benevolent, peace-loving Federation Admiral Matthew Dougherty, with the consent of the benevolent, peace-loving Federation Council, aided and abetted the S'ona in kidnapping the Baku and stripping their planet of its atmosphere, for the Federation's selfish gain, and with little to no concern for the S'ona's true motives(Star Trek Insurrection)?

Honestly, the Feds would be far better off stationing its reserachers outside any system with a pre-warp civilization, and use disguised drones to observe them via telepresence. If a drone malfunctions, self-destruct the damn thing, before any natives find it and get wise.

If the Feds were as benevolent and as interested in upholding the Prime Directive as they claim to be, that is. If not, well, maybe the Federation needs to drop the pretense they are holier than thou, enlist any cultural anthropologists and other appropriate specialists into their intelligence organizations, and infiltrate non-Federation civilizations that way.

Is not the Federation's Prime Directive merely an order as opposed to a statute? An order can be rescinded or suspended by those person(s) who issued the order.

It seems that the purpose of this order was to prevent starship captains from making their own foreign policy.
It seems that the

[Khaat]

Is not the Federation's Prime Directive merely an order as opposed to a statute? An order can be rescinded or suspended by those person(s) who issued the order.

In the fictional universe of Star Trek, the Prime Directive is the guiding principle of the United Federation of Planets. The Prime Directive, used in four of the five Star Trek-based series, prohibits Starfleet personnel from interfering with the internal development of alien civilizations. This conceptual law applies particularly to civilizations which are below a certain threshold of technological, scientific and cultural development; preventing starship crews from using their superior technology to impose their own values or ideals on them.

So not just Starfleet, but the whole of the United Federation of Planets

The Prime Directive, also known as Starfleet General Order 1 or the Non-Interference Directive, was the embodiment of one of Starfleet's most important ethical principles: noninterference with other cultures and civilizations. At its core was the philosophical concept that covered personnel should refrain from interfering in the natural, unassisted, development of societies, even if such interference was well-intentioned. The Prime Directive was viewed as so fundamental to Starfleet that officers swore to uphold the Prime Directive, even at the cost of their own life or the lives of their crew.

Laying their high-falutin' morality on the line! Except in every case we've actually seen on any of the shows....

[Simon_Jester]

Well, typically a Prime Directive episode has a plot that runs like:

1) Some crisis arises in which Picard must interfere in an alien culture or accept:
1a) Death of a crew member, or
1b) Mass death on the planetary surface.

2) Picard grimly resolves to accept death as the price of obeying the Prime Directive, while one or more of the command team argues incredulously with him and he gives them a pompous lecture on the Prime Directive.

3) Picard and/or the command team come up with a clever plan for:
3a) Saving the person/people without being detected, or
3b) Circumstances force Picard's hand and he is stuck in a position where the Prime Directive has already been violated, at which point he must minimize the damage by using his diplomatic skills on the aliens.

[biostem]

The problem I have with any "Prime Directive" type plots is that it is so vague that it can basically be used or explained away at-will. Does the crew want to get involved? Argue that the implications of non-involvement would have repercussions that would impact other Federation-member worlds. Don't want to get involved? Argue that *anything* going on down on the planet is an "internal matter" and throw your own people under the bus.

Especially in more primitive worlds, I see no reason why they couldn't conduct the kind of surveillance they'd need, from the safety of orbit, (if we can get pictures of people and cars with current satellites, imagine what the Enterprise can do). And if an agent down on the surface is necessary, I would hope that they could do something more elaborate than some plastic surgery...

[Simon_Jester]

Part of the issue is that the Prime Directive seems to include several concepts that are at most semi-related, or perhaps entirely unrelated.

One is "we do not interfere in the development of primitive cultures." Another is "we do not interfere in the internal affairs of foreign nations." And yet another is "do not run roughshod over local law and custom."

...

For example, in one episode of the first season the Enterprise visits the homeworld of the Edo, who have an idyllic society, but whose legal system is based on a strange twist: laws are enforced only in selected zones (which are randomly chosen without warning), but the punishment for breaking a law in an enforcement zone is certain death. Then, of course, in one of his earlier and most memorable acts of "DAMMIT WESLEY," Wesley Crusher goes and breaks up someone's flowerbed by accident.

Now, the Enterprise crew have already openly beamed down and talked to the locals and even sent down parties for shore leave. The Prime DIrective in the sense of "do not interfere with primitives" is off the table; if that were an issue then Picard would never have made contact.

However, the Prime Directive in the sense of "do not run roughshod over local law and custom" is in play. Picard doesn't just unilaterally beam Wesley back up to the ship, and actually goes down to the surface to plead for his life. Eventually he decides to say "to hell with it" and risk his career (plus the prospect of intervention by the somewhat hostile superbeings floating around the area) to save Wesley... but he doesn't make that decision until after negotiating with the locals has failed. And he explicitly recognizes that he's violating regulations at this point.

...

As another example, at one point Picard is called on to intervene against a rebellion in the Klingon Empire- and cites the Prime Directive as an obstacle to doing so! Clearly, the Klingons are not "primitive" in the sense that they lack technology or are ignorant of galactic affairs; there is no prohibition on contacting them. And clearly the problem is not 'ignoring local law and custom' or some such, because the Klingons asked HIM to come to THEM.

But it's still the internal affairs of a foreign power.
So this is an example of the Prime Directive covering the internal affairs of a foreign power.

[FedRebel]

Why would the Feds place scientific reserach stations on non-Federation worlds at all,

vantage points for specific research, think Antarctica, nobody 'owns' it but their are several research bases studying unique aspects of the Antarctic ecosystem, etc.

The Federation likely makes arrangements with warp capable independent civilizations to establish research stations because

A:The planet has a unique ecological phenomenon worth study

B: the planet has a critical vantage point to interstellar phenomenon

given a) the Prime Directive,

The only loophole here are anthropological "blinds" established to observe civilizations that exhibit apparent parallel evolution to other species.

[There's also those "blinds" set up to study a civilization before forcibly relocating it....comes bundled with a specialized illegal holoship.]

Honestly, the Feds would be far better off stationing its reserachers outside any system with a pre-warp civilization, and use disguised drones to observe them via telepresence. If a drone malfunctions, self-destruct the damn thing, before any natives find it and get wise.

That happened with Data once, gave at least a village radiation poisoning. Also in his amnesic state he invented some scientific advancements..which more than like contaminate that civilizations "natural development" (to a somewhat considerably degree.)

If the Feds were as benevolent and as interested in upholding the Prime Directive as they claim to be, that is. If not, well, maybe the Federation needs to drop the pretense they are holier than thou, enlist any cultural anthropologists and other appropriate specialists into their intelligence organizations, and infiltrate non-Federation civilizations that way.

Half the joke on SDN is that the Federation in reality is a Communist dystopia, everything we've "seen" is state propaganda, and all the high minded preaching by the heroes is the same...and Troi is less therapist...and more of a 'Political Officer'.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Ess ... rxism.html, less than flattering satirical essay.

Out of universe, writer's ignorance creates these headscratchers for act of plot. The critical research failures mount up with a decades long franchise...

In-universe, the Federation makes the USSR look like a utopia. Unfortunately that's how the litany of research failures and uninformed idealism mount up over 20 years.

[biostem]

Given the amount of weird and unique phenomena that exist in the Star Trek universe, it doesn't surprise me that there are some things that they simply cannot study locally. There's also, (either due to writers' lack of imagination or some in-universe limitation), a dearth innovative use's of technology...

[FaxModem1]

I like the idea of research stations being a building block for Federation membership. It gives cultural exposure to both sides, and over a generation or so allows both sides to get used to each other. Bajor, the world being groomed for Federation membership by Picard initially and Sisko following, had this with DS9, with their being a civil war a year after Starfleet's presence there. It was thanks to Sisko and company that the civil war ended, and the provisional government stayed in power for the next decade. Starfleet also stayed there, solving what problems they were asked to by the government, such as helping with diseases, power problems, setting up industry through industrial replicators, etc. By the time of the Dominion war, Bajor is radically changed and has rebuilt itself using its own power, but with the UFP keeping the Cardassians off their backs and with the occasional UFP assistance to prevent them from collapsing. If not for Sisko's vision from the Prophets, Bajor would be a UFP member by the end of the show.

Tylonis IV and Ventax II might have been the same way, struggling planets that are slowly improving, but erupt into political chaos the same way the Bajorans did, only there were rogue officers like Sisko around to get them back under control, so the UFP evacuated its resources and waited for things to settle down. With Ventax II, they might even become UFP members now that Picard got rid of their 'devil' problem.

[U.P. Cinnabar]

Half the joke on SDN is that the Federation in reality is a Communist dystopia, everything we've "seen" is state propaganda, and all the high minded preaching by the heroes is the same...and Troi is less therapist...and more of a 'Political Officer'.

Commissar Troi?! Hmmm, maybe that's why Diane Duane and Peter David cast her as the mirror Love Boat-D's head of security in his novel Dark Mirror* . Even as a zampolit, however, she fails at her job. I mean, she mouthes the party line well enough, as we saw in "Time's Arrow," when she was BSing Deep Thr—erm, Mark Twain, but, no one takes her seriously, except for potential demented stalker Reg Barclay, whom I'm honestly surprised hasn't sprayed the engineering decks with a pulse phaser, before he got sent Earthside.

[There's also those "blinds" set up to study a civilization before forcibly relocating it....comes bundled with a specialized illegal holoship.]

Jean-Luc has only himself and Worf's stepbrother to blame for setting that precedent. And, given he ordered Doctor Pulaski to diddle with a little alien girl's mind to cover up the incompetence of one of his officers(TNG "Pen Pals"), he has little basis for taking the moral high ground.

I read the page you linked me. Makes it all the more curious that Newt Gingrich is a Trekkie(per his opening speech at 1995 NASFiC/Dragon Con).

Or, maybe it doesn't.

The franchise and its fans tend to cheer its protagonists for making dubious moral choices. Sisko gassing a civilian colony in "For the Uniform," Ross for helping install a Fed puppet at the head of the Rom government in "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges," Kirk breaking the Prime Directive left and right in TOS, Worf playing Klingon kingmaker twice, being "reprimanded" the first time, and promoted the second, and, in the two Abrams abominations, Kirk is cheered for cheating on the Kobayashi Maru in the first, and for being the maverick rulebreaker in the second.

Only in the TOS movies(STII-VI)do we see moral choices being made which aren't dubious. Kirk risks everything to save Spock, then he turns himself over to the Federation Council for judgement, and takes responsibility for his actions for maybe the first time in his life.

Then, in Star Trek VI, we see him not only questioning his reasons for opposing peace, but put aside the hatred he harbors toward the Klingons for their killing David, and work to do the right thing.

*the real reason, of course, was Marina Sirtis originally read for the part of Tasha Yar.

[U.P. Cinnabar]

For example, in one episode of the first season the Enterprise visits the homeworld of the Edo, who have an idyllic society, but whose legal system is based on a strange twist: laws are enforced only in selected zones (which are randomly chosen without warning), but the punishment for breaking a law in an enforcement zone is certain death. Then, of course, in one of his earlier and most memorable acts of "DAMMIT WESLEY," Wesley Crusher goes and breaks up someone's flowerbed by accident.

Now, the Enterprise crew have already openly beamed down and talked to the locals and even sent down parties for shore leave. The Prime DIrective in the sense of "do not interfere with primitives" is off the table; if that were an issue then Picard would never have made contact.

However, the Prime Directive in the sense of "do not run roughshod over local law and custom" is in play. Picard doesn't just unilaterally beam Wesley back up to the ship, and actually goes down to the surface to plead for his life. Eventually he decides to say "to hell with it" and risk his career (plus the prospect of intervention by the somewhat hostile superbeings floating around the area) to save Wesley... but he doesn't make that decision until after negotiating with the locals has failed. And he explicitly recognizes that he's violating regulations at this point.

That whole incident in "Justice" could've been avoided if everyone had focussed on briefing the shore leave parties what the markings of the clearly-marked justice zones looked like(and the nature of justice on the Edo homeworld, as the Edo hadn't made a secret of either)instead of focussing on the fact that the Edo fuck like rabbits at the drop of a hat...any hat.

[U.P. Cinnabar]

The problem I have with any "Prime Directive" type plots is that it is so vague that it can basically be used or explained away at-will. Does the crew want to get involved? Argue that the implications of non-involvement would have repercussions that would impact other Federation-member worlds. Don't want to get involved? Argue that *anything* going on down on the planet is an "internal matter" and throw your own people under the bus.

Especially in more primitive worlds, I see no reason why they couldn't conduct the kind of surveillance they'd need, from the safety of orbit, (if we can get pictures of people and cars with current satellites, imagine what the Enterprise can do). And if an agent down on the surface is necessary, I would hope that they could do something more elaborate than some plastic surgery...

I was going to suggest a hologram for that purpose...until I realized the only mobile emitter available was from five centuries in the future and on the other side of the Galaxy.

The Original Series' solution to the Prime Directive was often to put Kirk, Spock, et al., in a situation where they had to solve the planet's problems for it, or they'd end up dead and/or the ship is destroyed. Two prime examples of this are "A Taste Of Armageddon," from the first season, and "The Apple" from the second season.

("Patterns Of Force" was one where the underlying problem(the Nazi society) didn't get fixed; it was just assumed that replacing the leader would make everything better)

[Simon_Jester]

In Patterns of Force, I suspect the biggest reason the Enterprise didn't fix the Nazi planet was because the problem was too big to fix (except by nuking them from orbit). That would have been a job for a huge number of Federation sociologists and troops to undo the damage the first guy did...

Half the joke on SDN is that the Federation in reality is a Communist dystopia, everything we've "seen" is state propaganda, and all the high minded preaching by the heroes is the same...and Troi is less therapist...and more of a 'Political Officer'.

Personally, I've come to think that thesis is rather stupid. For one, there are a LOT of explanations for why we don't constantly see people referring to their own personal starships, or why a Federation economy dominated by replicators and energy production doesn't have the kind of thriving small-scale commercial economy we might expect in the absence of such a society. Or why everyone is spending a lot of time listening to 'ancient' music and so on.

Likewise, Troi is possibly the WORST CANDIDATE EVER for a job like "political officer." Can you imagine her ordering Riker arrested for subversion? Having a crewman shot for treason against The People? Literally the only thing she has going for her as a commissar is her empathic abilities, and just having the physical equipment doesn't mean you're qualified to do the job.

The claim that the Federation is a "communist dystopia" a la Ceasescu's Romania or the Kims' North Korea is sheer nonsense. It is at best an (anti-) fan theory constructed by people who are so wrapped up in the "CAPITALISM SUPERIOR" attitude that they cannot conceive of a functional civilization in which profit-seeking dominated by capitalists is anything other than the most prevalent form of human activity. And who assume that profit-seeking is absent in the Federation purely because the military officers and scientists we actually encounter regularly aren't engaged in it.

Out of universe, writer's ignorance creates these headscratchers for act of plot. The critical research failures mount up with a decades long franchise...

In-universe, the Federation makes the USSR look like a utopia. Unfortunately that's how the litany of research failures and uninformed idealism mount up over 20 years.

...Uh, what are you talking about?

Of course the Federation makes the USSR look like a utopia. It's got the technology to be orders of magnitude richer per capita- and even the USSR could afford to keep food on everyone's table, roofs over everyone's heads, and access to basic medical care for all. The government appears to have little or no interest in violating the human rights of its subjects, probably because it is NOT some kind of dictatorship that needs to exercise control over the political ideology of its people. And unlike the USSR, it isn't trapped in a paranoid cycle of spending a double-digit percentage of its GDP on the military so it can keep up an arms race with a vastly richer superpower... or if the Federation is spending that much of its resources on Starfleet, it is so staggeringly prosperous that it can do so and still support its people in material comfort as great or greater than anything we enjoy today.

Half the joke on SDN is that the Federation in reality is a Communist dystopia, everything we've "seen" is state propaganda, and all the high minded preaching by the heroes is the same...and Troi is less therapist...and more of a 'Political Officer'.

Commissar Troi?! Hmmm, maybe that's why Diane Duane and Peter David cast her as the mirror Love Boat-D's head of security in his novel Dark Mirror* . Even as a zampolit, however, she fails at her job...

Oh sure, Troi's evil opposite could do a good job as a commissar... but then, mirror versions of Star Trek characters don't resemble their originals very closely in basic personality.

On the mirror version of Kirk's Enterprise it was Sulu who was the treacherous, oppressive, wicked chief of security- that doesn't mean Sulu was secretly a political commissar in 'our' version of the Federation.

Jean-Luc has only himself and Worf's stepbrother to blame for setting that precedent. And, given he ordered Doctor Pulaski to diddle with a little alien girl's mind to cover up the incompetence of one of his officers(TNG "Pen Pals"), he has little basis for taking the moral high ground.

It seems to me that Picard's approach to actually enforcing the Prime Directive tends to be extremely... ad hoc... in the sense of doing things like tampering with people's memories and sedating them and so on rather than simply killing them.

It doesn't help that the whims of the plot are constantly putting him in situations that would be nightmares for most of the Federation officials who presumably drew up the Prime DIrective. Like "what if our intervention is required to stop this planet from exploding" or "what if, while carrying out a mission we ordered them to carry out, they accidentally get spotted by primitive aliens?"

The franchise and its fans tend to cheer its protagonists for making dubious moral choices. Sisko gassing a civilian colony in "For the Uniform," Ross for helping install a Fed puppet at the head of the Rom government in "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges," Kirk breaking the Prime Directive left and right in TOS, Worf playing Klingon kingmaker twice, being "reprimanded" the first time, and promoted the second, and, in the two Abrams abominations, Kirk is cheered for cheating on the Kobayashi Maru in the first, and for being the maverick rulebreaker in the second.

This is... more than a little of a problem. I will note that:

1) The Prime Directive was rather less 'prime' back in TOS, and appears to have been aimed almost entirely at preventing technology transfer or the provision of scientific data that might inspire cultures to develop advanced weapons and space travel at an early stage in their cultural development. This is understandable; the Federation already has to deal with one bunch of medieval crazies in starships, and the Klingons are a handful as it is. Also, the instances we DO have of aliens getting their hands on human cultural information in TOS are fairly disastrous, what with planets of Nazis and gangsters. But despite this, in Kirk's era we see no sign that, say, blowing up the computer that's mind controlling a bunch of alien colonists counts as a Prime Directive violation. It just doesn't come up- it seems to be the sort of thing that Starfleet captains are entitled to do at their own discretion. Obviously, by Picard's era, this discretionary power has been reduced. That, or Picard is unusually reluctant to exercise it.

2) I believe the second time Worf got involved in top-level Klingon politics it was after a war between the Klingons and the Federation (revealing Martok as a shapeshifter, right?) which may have led the Federation high command to be more sympathetic because he was doing something they were sure they wanted him doing.

3) I'm... going to disown the Abrams setting. They made Kirk far too much of a bad-boy. Shatner's Kirk, well. I once read it this way:

Captain Kirk is trustworthy, loyal, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, brave, clean, and reverent... and yet, Jim Kirk is no Boy Scout.

They kind of failed to capture a lot of the parts of the character in the Abrams setting. Shatner's Kirk was certainly capable of pulling outrageous stunts, duping his enemies, and engaging in bold, dangerous gambits for the sake of saving the ship or accomplishing the mission. But all his risk-taking and rogueishness was backed by a solid layer of professionalism and discipline that Pine's Kirk lacks.

Only in the TOS movies(STII-VI)do we see moral choices being made which aren't dubious. Kirk risks everything to save Spock, then he turns himself over to the Federation Council for judgement, and takes responsibility for his actions for maybe the first time in his life.

Then, in Star Trek VI, we see him not only questioning his reasons for opposing peace, but put aside the hatred he harbors toward the Klingons for their killing David, and work to do the right thing.

I don't think those are the only decent moral choices in the series... I mean seriously, with 200-300 episodes at least, it's inevitable that characters are doing unambiguously decent things a lot of the time. I have no doubt I could easily find plenty of examples.

That whole incident in "Justice" could've been avoided if everyone had focussed on briefing the shore leave parties what the markings of the clearly-marked justice zones looked like(and the nature of justice on the Edo homeworld, as the Edo hadn't made a secret of either)instead of focussing on the fact that the Edo fuck like rabbits at the drop of a hat...any hat.

My understanding is that the command team didn't find out about the Edo's little habit of randomly executing people for squashing the flowerbed until it was a bit too late. This was a new culture they had only just discovered, and the Edo informed them of the "justice zones" after they'd already beamed down.

Also, the "justice zones" were NOT clearly marked; the entire point of the Edo legal system is that you never know when you're in such a zone, and that (at least for the Edo) the risk of being in one is enough deterrent to keep anyone from committing a crime.

The big mistake the command team made was in assuming they understood the Edo after such a short amount of contact with their culture- that because the Edo's culture looked like a paradise, with no evidence of violence or crime, it must be 'safe,' and it was okay to send unsupervised children out to play in that culture. This is... from my point of view the result of two major cultural blinders exhibited by the TNG-era Federation:

1) The assumption that cultures evolve in a more or less linear ways. For instance, the Federation core worlds are very peaceful, clean, happy, orderly places from what we know of them. And the Federation tends to assume that whenever they see a peaceful, clean, happy, orderly place, it must be 'enlightened' in the same way the Federation is enlightened. You'd think Kirk's experiences alone would be enough to disprove this; there must be half a dozen episodes of TOS whose plot contains the element "the Enterprise discovers a place that seems to be a paradise, but secretly isn't."

2) The tendency to bring children along on their starships into dangerous environments. Picard, at least, makes token protests against this once in a while, but overall it's a huge blind spot. Just because it's appropriate to send military personnel into a place where their lives are at risk doesn't mean civilians, especially children, should be accepting the same risks. And children in particular are simply incapable of conducting themselves with the same level of control and discipline as adults, which makes them a massive liability in a situation like a first contact.

[FaxModem1]

2) The tendency to bring children along on their starships into dangerous environments. Picard, at least, makes token protests against this once in a while, but overall it's a huge blind spot. Just because it's appropriate to send military personnel into a place where their lives are at risk doesn't mean civilians, especially children, should be accepting the same risks. And children in particular are simply incapable of conducting themselves with the same level of control and discipline as adults, which makes them a massive liability in a situation like a first contact.

This, at least, seems to have been rectified around the Dominion War era. The Defiant, Equinox, Voyager, and the Enterprise-E all have no civilians on board. The Borg invasion, the conflict with the Klingons, and over two years of war with the Dominion seemed to have broke them of that habit. I think we see the seeds of this around the time of "The Jem'Hadar" with Jadzia recommending to the captain of the Odyssey that he evacuate the civilians onto the station before they go into battle in the Gamma Quadrant.

Starfleet seemed to have lost its innocence regarding how they operate, but that's probably for the best.

[Simon_Jester]

Although ironically, having children on board is more true to the "wagon train to the stars" vision Roddenbury originally had, at least if you take it literally. Wagon trains did bring children along because they were colonist families going to new places.

On the other hand, exploratory missions into the complete unknown, like the Lewis and Clark Expedition, did NOT bring children along.

[Darmalus]

I always thought the "communist dystopia UFP" was a way to crank up the drama in fan-works, not a serious view of how the UFP is supposed to work. Given the number of society-shaking technologies that are just taken for granted, there are tons of ways history could go right as well as wrong.

Of course, we also know that the galaxy is not all hunky-dory and places like the Cardassian Union have severe resource shortages and their society is partly a result of that, so maybe the UFP is comfortable because they were lucky to be founded on top of the galactic mother lode of dilithium or whatever else makes society go.

[Simon_Jester]

The Cardassians fit the profile of "militarized society" that might well be spending so much of their resources on the military that it cripples their civilian economy, though. Plus, their government is authoritarian and they have a secret police force committed to suppressing dissent, both of which tend to undermine their ability to do anything about it in the event that something goes wrong with the economy. There's a tendency for police states to treat dissent caused by economic screwups as grounds to go bust dissenters' heads, rather than as a reason to actually fix the problem. Keep that up for a few decades and your society accumulates a lot of unfixed problems.

The Cardassians are a much better fit for the "communist dystopia" than the Federation is, which is fitting because the Cardassians were created to be the 'poster boy for totalitarianism' and the Federation wasn't.

[Darmalus]

Unless there's been a rewrite, the Cardassians were a space-faring (or at least world-spanning) civilization and would have been a shoe-in for UFP membership before their civilization collapsed due to lack of resources. That's when they went the route of military dictatorship. Assuming it's all true, it sounds like they would have been nice neighbors assuming the Breen or someone else didn't come in guns blazing and make them paranoid and xenophobic via another route.