Who is the top dog of the Top Dogs in Trek? (Energy Beings)

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Who is the King of the Trek God Beings?

Q
20
87%
Greek Gods
0
No votes
Trelane
0
No votes
Organians
2
9%
Prophets
0
No votes
Douwd
1
4%
Other?
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 23

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Who is the top dog of the Top Dogs in Trek? (Energy Beings)

Post by Replicant » 2015-10-12 11:02pm

So who ranks as the most powerful of the evolved energy beings that wander around in Star Trek?

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Re: Who is the top dog of the Top Dogs in Trek? (Energy Bein

Post by Simon_Jester » 2015-10-13 02:19am

I'd go with the Q continuum, mostly because they appear to be a large, organized body who appear more than once (even discounting that one particular Q's fixation with Enterprise and Voyager). This suggests that they are more numerous, or more ubiquitous. Whereas we only see a 'Douwd' once.

As for the rest... the Prophets are confined to a single region of space and appear to lack absolute reality-altering powers aside from control over the Bajoran wormhole.

Trelane is a single entity who appears to be vulnerable to human interference with his tools- he has parents who are more powerful, but there is no evidence of their identity. For all we know they could be Q's.

[Note that while 'the' Q's child 'Q Junior' is supposed to be the first new Q born in a long time, he's not the first one born ever; presumably the Q have something recognizable as a life cycle or at least the part of it which involves being born and raised]

The Greek gods lack the kind of reality-bending power it would take to be competitive with the Q. Seriously, Apollo loses a duel of energy firepower with the Enterprise, and is seemingly powerless with the loss of his machinery (like Trelane)

The Organians are contenders, at least- but again, we only see evidence of their activity once, which suggests they confine themselves to their homeworld, whereas the Q are far-ranging.
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Re: Who is the top dog of the Top Dogs in Trek? (Energy Bein

Post by FaxModem1 » 2015-10-13 02:59am

There's also the Metrons, but they are rather low tier in comparison to the Q.
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Re: Who is the top dog of the Top Dogs in Trek? (Energy Bein

Post by Prometheus Unbound » 2015-10-13 03:14am

Simon_Jester wrote: The Organians are contenders, at least- but again, we only see evidence of their activity once, which suggests they confine themselves to their homeworld, whereas the Q are far-ranging.
The Organians appeared in Enterprise and apparently had had contact with the Cardassians as well by that stage (and seemingly hundreds of other races, for thousands of years).
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Re: Who is the top dog of the Top Dogs in Trek? (Energy Bein

Post by SpottedKitty » 2015-10-13 08:54am

I'm not sure if Apollo should be ranked so low. Wasn't it stated that he used to be a lot more powerful? Then something happened, either the departure of the others in the pantheon, or some loss of power in his generator, and he faded to the point where a single Connie-class starship could destroy his power source.

And I don't think the Organians would count as "limited to their homeworld". Deliberately limiting themselves, maybe; but they seemed to have no problems with disabling the Federation and Klingon fleets spread through the system, and popping in to Earth and the Klingon homeworld almost as an afterthought. I'd put them second only to the Q.
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Re: Who is the top dog of the Top Dogs in Trek? (Energy Bein

Post by Borgholio » 2015-10-13 09:23am

Trelane is a single entity who appears to be vulnerable to human interference with his tools- he has parents who are more powerful, but there is no evidence of their identity. For all we know they could be Q's.
Although it's non-canon, it was explained in a novel that Trelane was actually a "teenage" Q...which is why he was acting like a spoiled brat.

That said, I would also throw my hat in on the Q's side. Although other entities could potentially have as much power as the Q (perhaps more), we see so many more instances of the Q doing stuff that we have a fairly good idea of their abilities...and it's impressive. Some examples:

Q can cause supernovae when they fight each other.

Q can transport anything they want as far as they want through time. They've gone back to the big bang and magically shrank starships to the subatomic level.

Q don't seem to expend any effort. Just a snap of the fingers or wave of the hand and that's it. We've never seen a Q get tired, run down, out of breath, or run out of power except when fighting another Q using weapons designed by the Q.

So overall they've demonstrated greater power than the other energy beings have and done it far more often (at least on screen). We don't know if the Organians were able to do what they did easily, or if the entire planet had to focus at once to make it happen and it was a one-trick pony.
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Re: Who is the top dog of the Top Dogs in Trek? (Energy Bein

Post by Prometheus Unbound » 2015-10-13 09:39am

Borgholio wrote: So overall they've demonstrated greater power than the other energy beings have and done it far more often (at least on screen). We don't know if the Organians were able to do what they did easily, or if the entire planet had to focus at once to make it happen and it was a one-trick pony.
Agreed on the Organians but they are pretty powerful - that cease fire they caused was all over the alpha quadrant (or in the episode did they say galaxy as ABCD qs weren't around then?)
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Re: Who is the top dog of the Top Dogs in Trek? (Energy Bein

Post by Replicant » 2015-10-13 12:35pm

I would have said the Q quickly except for one thing. Q, in a Voyager episode once very clearly told Junior Q that one does not play with the Borg. This, to me at least, implies a level of parental safety warning.

On the other hand the Douwd, in a singular moment of rage, destroyed the entire Husnock race.

So who is more powerful the Q or the Douwd?

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Re: Who is the top dog of the Top Dogs in Trek? (Energy Bein

Post by Borgholio » 2015-10-13 12:43pm

I would have said the Q quickly except for one thing. Q, in a Voyager episode once very clearly told Junior Q that one does not play with the Borg. This, to me at least, implies a level of parental safety warning.
I read that in the same vein as "Now Junior, I told you to stop kicking over that anthill! It's mean to the ants." Q didn't sound concerned for his son's safety...just wanted him to stop pestering the Borg.
So who is more powerful the Q or the Douwd?
We've never seen the Q destroy an entire race...but then again the Douwd was forced to resort to illusions and tricks to drive off the Enterprise instead of simply teleporting them away or wiping their memories.
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Re: Who is the top dog of the Top Dogs in Trek? (Energy Bein

Post by Elheru Aran » 2015-10-13 02:54pm

Borgholio wrote:
I would have said the Q quickly except for one thing. Q, in a Voyager episode once very clearly told Junior Q that one does not play with the Borg. This, to me at least, implies a level of parental safety warning.
I read that in the same vein as "Now Junior, I told you to stop kicking over that anthill! It's mean to the ants." Q didn't sound concerned for his son's safety...just wanted him to stop pestering the Borg.
Or, it seems (to me) more likely that there's a 'code' the Q follow to some degree-- you don't fuck with species 'just because'. Q seems to have had (however dim) a certain overall purpose with humanity via his interactions with the Enterprise crew. Which doesn't negate Borgholio's point, I suppose.

As far as power levels go, there's no way to reliably tell with most of them given that the majority are one-episode wonders. The Prophets seem to have a certain oomph to their abilities, especially within the wormhole, but overall the Q would seem to have the most overall power to do whatever the fuck they want, pretty much anywhere they want, with whomever they want.

How exactly they got to that point, who the hell knows. Nobody was particularly interested on elaborating on their limits during any of the series. The 'Q Continuum' series by... I wanna say it was Peter David, went into some detail, but it's pretty far non-canon. Decent books if a bit silly, though.
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Re: Who is the top dog of the Top Dogs in Trek? (Energy Bein

Post by Replicant » 2015-10-13 03:34pm

Borgholio wrote:
I would have said the Q quickly except for one thing. Q, in a Voyager episode once very clearly told Junior Q that one does not play with the Borg. This, to me at least, implies a level of parental safety warning.
I read that in the same vein as "Now Junior, I told you to stop kicking over that anthill! It's mean to the ants." Q didn't sound concerned for his son's safety...just wanted him to stop pestering the Borg.
So who is more powerful the Q or the Douwd?
We've never seen the Q destroy an entire race...but then again the Douwd was forced to resort to illusions and tricks to drive off the Enterprise instead of simply teleporting them away or wiping their memories.
Why make it a big point about the Borg. I mean look at them, they would be boring to tease anyway since 99.9999999% are drones you cannot have fun with. It would have made more sense if Q had said "Do not torment the Borg Queen" because she is the only one that will respond in a fun way.

As for Douwd, he was so depressed by his act of rage that the last thing he wanted to do was actually hurt anyone.

Who knows, maybe the fight boils down to who thinks the other one dead first.

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Re: Who is the top dog of the Top Dogs in Trek? (Energy Bein

Post by Simon_Jester » 2015-10-13 03:47pm

SpottedKitty wrote:I'm not sure if Apollo should be ranked so low. Wasn't it stated that he used to be a lot more powerful? Then something happened, either the departure of the others in the pantheon, or some loss of power in his generator, and he faded to the point where a single Connie-class starship could destroy his power source.
That is possible. On the other hand, we have no clues as to their capabilities in the distant past, so... moot point.
And I don't think the Organians would count as "limited to their homeworld". Deliberately limiting themselves, maybe; but they seemed to have no problems with disabling the Federation and Klingon fleets spread through the system, and popping in to Earth and the Klingon homeworld almost as an afterthought. I'd put them second only to the Q.
I didn't say the Organians were "limited to their homeworld." I said they "[confine] themselves to their homeworld." Certainly they have the ability to project their great powers over long distances, and I am sure they're on par with a number of other high-powered alien races in Star Trek. But that doesn't mean they're on par with the Q.
Borgholio wrote:
Trelane is a single entity who appears to be vulnerable to human interference with his tools- he has parents who are more powerful, but there is no evidence of their identity. For all we know they could be Q's.
Although it's non-canon, it was explained in a novel that Trelane was actually a "teenage" Q...which is why he was acting like a spoiled brat.
It IS canon that he is an incompletely mature member of his kind, whatever that kind that might be.
Replicant wrote:Why make it a big point about the Borg. I mean look at them, they would be boring to tease anyway since 99.9999999% are drones you cannot have fun with. It would have made more sense if Q had said "Do not torment the Borg Queen" because she is the only one that will respond in a fun way.
Thing is, Q Junior torments people in a very... immature way. For instance, we see him remove Seven of Nine's clothes just to make her freak out (it doesn't work, but still). Q doesn't do things that degrading to people as a rule. He may endanger their lives, even- but he doesn't normally debase people that way.

It may well be that Q Junior is prodding the Borg in an 'immature' way, and if allowed to do so he might start doing more and more drastic things to the Borg in order to get a reaction out of them. Since the Borg are unreactive, and Q Junior presumably has many of the same reality-altering powers as his parents, this might result in Q Junior doing things like blowing up entire suns out of childish petulance.

In which case, it would be bad for Q Junior's emotional development for him to be allowed to keep 'playing with' the Borg- because the Borg are boring and Q Junior is immature, and when you give a boring toy to an immature creature they're likely to break it out of carelessness or recklessness.
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Re: Who is the top dog of the Top Dogs in Trek? (Energy Bein

Post by Replicant » 2015-10-13 04:24pm

Simon_Jester wrote: In which case, it would be bad for Q Junior's emotional development for him to be allowed to keep 'playing with' the Borg- because the Borg are boring and Q Junior is immature, and when you give a boring toy to an immature creature they're likely to break it out of carelessness or recklessness.
Good point.

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Re: Who is the top dog of the Top Dogs in Trek? (Energy Bein

Post by PREDATOR490 » 2015-10-13 06:38pm

Not really much of a debate: The Q take top dog over everyone base on anything seen.

As for messing with the Borg: Voyager's assimilation could be a threat to the Q due to shared history. The Q also have some sort of interest in humanity which results in Delancie Q, dropping that story on Riker about humanity surpassing them. Followed by the numerous visits including the intervention to 'save' them from the Borg. The Borg or humanity may not be a direct threat but it does seem like the Q are acting as if they could be if not handled properly.

This does not seem entirely silly since the Borg have literally been seen launching intergalactic invasions on different realms like S8472. We know the Q Continuum realm can supposedly be accessed by humans so provoking the Borg would seem prudent at the least because their 'relentless' nature could be a real pain in the ass.

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Re: Who is the top dog of the Top Dogs in Trek? (Energy Bein

Post by Prometheus Unbound » 2015-10-13 09:19pm

Replicant wrote: Why make it a big point about the Borg. I mean look at them, they would be boring to tease anyway since 99.9999999% are drones you cannot have fun with. It would have made more sense if Q had said "Do not torment the Borg Queen" because she is the only one that will respond in a fun way..
Stretching here, but maybe it's a result of what Q did in Q Who - what he did provoked the Borg into saying "hmm that Federation sure has a nifty magic warp drive" and they headed toward 'em according to some theories.

Q junior was clicking ships in and out of existence around borg ships - maybe Q thought the Borg might go off trying to assimilate more magic warp drives v0v


EDIT I like simon's answer better
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Re: Who is the top dog of the Top Dogs in Trek? (Energy Bein

Post by Batman » 2015-10-13 09:26pm

What the hell is magic about Warp drive, especially from a Q viewpoint?
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Re: Who is the top dog of the Top Dogs in Trek? (Energy Bein

Post by Prometheus Unbound » 2015-10-13 09:30pm

Batman wrote:What the hell is magic about Warp drive, especially from a Q viewpoint?
From the Borg's point of view - the Enterprise appeared out of thin air (within sensor range of a Cube, which was the point of putting them there). Borg wander over, wondering who this magic ship is. They examine it, try to assimilate it. It seems to pack a fair punch, weapons-wise. Then when they go in for the final assimilation attempt, it magically breaks out of the tractor beam and has moved out of sensor range at speeds faster than Borg transwarp conduits.

So they go "hmm, that was interesting" and then we end up with TBoBW.


just to be clear, I'm on about Q snapping them around - The Borg didn't know it was Q doing that, they would have, presumably, thought it was an ability of the Enterprise.
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Re: Who is the top dog of the Top Dogs in Trek? (Energy Bein

Post by Simon_Jester » 2015-10-13 09:32pm

Nothing- except that from the Borg's point of view the Enterprise-D just literally materialized out of nowhere practically on top of one of their cubes as though it had somehow teleported there.

In other words, Q (wittingly or unwittingly) may have caused the Borg to see Q's actions upon the Enterprise as a function of the Enterprise's own technology rather than being the result of divine intervention.

This might well have triggered the Borg's initial interest in humans. Especially if they were already aware of humans earlier (there were allusions to this in earlier TNG episodes even if we ignore the events of the Enterprise prequel show) and decided not to make an aggressive attempt at assimilation at that time.

Since the Borg failed to capture the Enterprise, it may not have been until they captured and assimilated Picard some time later that they could actually rule out the idea that the Federation had some kind of magical long range transportation technology that would be worth assimilating.
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Re: Who is the top dog of the Top Dogs in Trek? (Energy Bein

Post by Prometheus Unbound » 2015-10-13 09:41pm

Simon_Jester wrote:Nothing- except that from the Borg's point of view the Enterprise-D just literally materialized out of nowhere practically on top of one of their cubes as though it had somehow teleported there.

In other words, Q (wittingly or unwittingly) may have caused the Borg to see Q's actions upon the Enterprise as a function of the Enterprise's own technology rather than being the result of divine intervention.

This might well have triggered the Borg's initial interest in humans. Especially if they were already aware of humans earlier (there were allusions to this in earlier TNG episodes even if we ignore the events of the Enterprise prequel show) and decided not to make an aggressive attempt at assimilation at that time.

Since the Borg failed to capture the Enterprise, it may not have been until they captured and assimilated Picard some time later that they could actually rule out the idea that the Federation had some kind of magical long range transportation technology that would be worth assimilating.
Or it may explain their bizarre policy change. Even Shelby noted "I thought they weren't interested in humans, only our technology" to which Picard says "their priorities seem to have changed." Maybe the Borg, in taking that chunk of the Enterprise with it as well as their scout drones, figured the magic teleporting was either a function of the ship or the crew. They realised it wasn't the ship, so they figured it must be something Humans can do - so went to assimilate their entire planet.
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Re: Who is the top dog of the Top Dogs in Trek? (Energy Bein

Post by PREDATOR490 » 2015-10-13 11:05pm

The Borg literally sucked the computer out of the E-D in Q,Who and the Borg would figure out really quickly from that information the Feds should not be able to do what the E-D did. Especially, if we go with the notion of them assimilating the outposts along the Neutral Zone. This does not include the possibility that sucking the computer would reveal the fact that Q is messing with the E-D simply through the logs.

The way Q spins his actions in Voyager is that he was saving the Federation by doing what he did. Either Q is lying and by doing what he did he caused the very event he was trying to prevent or it is true and the Borg were on the way so Q accelerated the encounter. Q did hurl them 2 years travel time from the Fed space which is an extremely far cry from the established Borg territory in Voyager. The cube they met could be the same one that hit the outposts or Q knew this one was on the long tour heading towards the Feds.
Regardless, not much hope in doing anything but speculate on motives.

It is reasonable for the Borg to know about the Q and assimilating the Feds could be as much about trying to figure out a way to reach the Q as it was to figure out why the Q are showing interest in the Feds. Would also go to explain why the Borg go for Picard since he has the relationship with Q.

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Re: Who is the top dog of the Top Dogs in Trek? (Energy Bein

Post by Simon_Jester » 2015-10-14 05:14am

PREDATOR490 wrote:The Borg literally sucked the computer out of the E-D in Q,Who and the Borg would figure out really quickly from that information the Feds should not be able to do what the E-D did. Especially, if we go with the notion of them assimilating the outposts along the Neutral Zone. This does not include the possibility that sucking the computer would reveal the fact that Q is messing with the E-D simply through the logs.
Ah. Forgot about the computer download.
The way Q spins his actions in Voyager is that he was saving the Federation by doing what he did. Either Q is lying and by doing what he did he caused the very event he was trying to prevent...
This is totally in keeping with his character, surely? Would Q ever straight-up admit a mistake with such horrible consequences?
or it is true and the Borg were on the way so Q accelerated the encounter.

Q did hurl them 2 years travel time from the Fed space which is an extremely far cry from the established Borg territory in Voyager. The cube they met could be the same one that hit the outposts or Q knew this one was on the long tour heading towards the Feds.

Regardless, not much hope in doing anything but speculate on motives.
You're certainly right- but it's a credible explanation for a few later events. If Q inadvertently promoted humanity higher on the Borg's list of interesting targets, this might have convinced Q at a later time that it is unwise to tamper casually with affairs involving them.
It is reasonable for the Borg to know about the Q and assimilating the Feds could be as much about trying to figure out a way to reach the Q as it was to figure out why the Q are showing interest in the Feds. Would also go to explain why the Borg go for Picard since he has the relationship with Q.
This is very much possible.
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Re: Who is the top dog of the Top Dogs in Trek? (Energy Bein

Post by Elheru Aran » 2015-10-14 09:34am

If they downloaded the E-D's computer, it's quite possible they accessed crew personal logs. In that case they would definitely have heard about the times that the crew ran into Q, and gone from there.
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Re: Who is the top dog of the Top Dogs in Trek? (Energy Bein

Post by Ziggy Stardust » 2015-10-17 11:08am

Where was it stated that they downloaded the E-D's computer? The drones beam into engineering, where they certainly seem to ACCESS the computer, but (as Q says to Picard in that scene) they are only interested in assessing the technological capabilities of the ship. I don't believe it is ever stated or implied that the Borg download the entire ship's computer. IIRC, while the drones are accessing the computer the image on the viewscreen shows a diagram of the ship, further indicating they were just looking at the technical specifications of the Enterprise.

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Re: Who is the top dog of the Top Dogs in Trek? (Energy Bein

Post by Simon_Jester » 2015-10-17 01:10pm

True. And if the Borg don't care about people and only care about technology... they probably wouldn't bother to read security logs or personal diaries if they had access to direct specifications about the engineering capabilities of the ship. Since the only reason to pay attention to such information, for them, would be if it somehow provided information about the technology. They already have as much of that kind of information as they could want, so why bother?
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Re: Who is the top dog of the Top Dogs in Trek? (Energy Bein

Post by PREDATOR490 » 2015-10-17 02:02pm

All we know is the Borg sucked information out of the E-D. The extent of the information they got is unknown since we have no idea what the computer storage system is like. Is it likely the Borg sucked bridge personal logs out of engineering - No
Is it possible that Geordi or anyone of the engineering staff put in reports or logs that referenced what Q recently did to the E-D - I would expect so

If you want to over examine further: The E-D magically flies extremely fast which attracts the Borg in short order. Since the Borg have already assimilated Fed bases they should be more than aware that a Federation ship out this far is unusual. Not to mention that the Borg vessel may have actually been able to detect something of what Q is doing to the E-D. Borg drone beams directly to Engineering and is described as taking an examination of the Warp Core - E-D magically flies extremely fast and now a Borg drone beams into Engineering. Could it be the Borg are trying to figure out the discrepancy of what just happened ?

As for "Borg do not care about people" - This line was proven to be bullshit over the entire Star Trek franchise history but even as far as Q,Who kinda indicates it is untrue.
If the Borg only care about technology it is a bit strange they seem to go to rather interesting lengths to depopulate the area of people just as much as technology. One would have expected at least one or more witnesses / survivors if the Borg truly did not give a shit about people on their assimilation binge. People may be lower on this list of assimilation priorities but raping people of their knowledge to understand technology better is established as Borg behavior as well.

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