WATCH-MAN wrote:Eternal_Freedom wrote:Do you really think Q, who in the very first episode claimed to be judging humanity, and in the very last episode admits the trial never ended, will only be basing his actions on what Picard does and says in his presence?
[...] Perhaps I should have said preaching about humanity and how evolved they are now.
This argumentation is a little bit fishy.
As you argued yourself: Q put humanity on trial in the very first episode. It is only to be expected that Picard, defending humanity, points out how humanity has changed, how it has evolved. What else should he have done?
Yeah, he can show how humanity has changed, I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that the
way he doe this, especially in early TNG, is excessively smug, arrogant and preachy.
Eternal_Freedom wrote:As for this: "Picard replied that he does not know that they are prepared, but he does know that they are ready to confront it." [...] Also what the fuck does "I don't know if we're prepared for thsi, but I know we're ready to face it" even mean?
To be honest: I do not really know what Picard means when he says that he does not know that they are prepared, but he does know that they are ready to confront it.
What is the difference between being ready and being prepared?
The implication is that Picard believes his ship and crew can handle anything thrown at them without any preparation or warning. And I'd say that's the difference betweent he two, being ready means you're good to go, being prepared is slightly more nuanced in hat you have, well, prepared, planned ahead, organised etc.
Eternal_Freedom wrote:Also what the fuck does "I don't know if we're prepared for thsi, but I know we're ready to face it" even mean? Is he that arrogant about the abilities of his ship and crew and/or the human nature, that he will willingly pit them against anything in the galaxy, with no preparation and with hundreds of civilians, including children aboard?
As you seem not to know what he means, you can't really conclude that he means that the abilities of his ship and crew and/or the human nature is prepared for what awaits them. He is only saying that they are ready to confront it. Picard seems to think that there is a difference between being prepared and being ready.
AS I said above, the implication is that Picard thinks they are ready to confront things
without preparing for them in advance. Which is a really arrogant opinion to hold.
Furthermore: It was not Picards decision to have families and children aboard:
SNIP LIST
The fact that it wasn't Picard's decision is, as you like to say, irrelevant.
He is still willing to endanger them all. He doesn't even routinely separate the saucer section like the
Galaxy-class is supposed to.
And as the Enterprise is a ship of Starfleet and has a crew not only consisting of humans - Picard's preaching about humanity would have no relevance. The Federation and Starfleet is not a homo sapiens club.
So why then does Picard, an officer of Starfleet and a true believer in the Federation, only ever mention
humanity and
mankind when talking about how "evolved" and "ready" they are in season 1 TNG? Do you start to see now why I call him arrogant and smug?
Eternal_Freedom wrote:That alone is monumentally stupid.
What exactly is monumentally stupid?
To be arrogant about the abilities of ones ship and crew and/or the human nature?
Please show that Picard has really shown such arrogance.
To have children aboard?
That was not Picard's decision.
To willingly pit the ship against anything in the galaxy with no preparation.
Please show that Picard has willingly done this.
To willingly pit the ship with hundreds of civilians, including children aboard against anything in the galaxy.
Please show that Picard has willingly done this.
1. Well we have Picard's blanket declaration that the E-D is ready to face anything "out there" which, as Q claims, contains things far worse than anything they've faced before.
2. Having the children aboard, whether it's his decision 100% of the time, doesn't matter, as it's his decision
when taking the ship into danger.
3. When has Picard pitted the ship against anything in the galaxy with no prep? "Where No One Has Gone Before." They get thrown all the way to Andromeda, and instead of immediately working to find a way home, Picard actually contemplates sticking around in a totally unknown galaxy, with no support, with hundreds of civilian and children aboard. Granted, that's in
a galaxy, not
the galaxy, but I think it counts.
Eternal_Freedom wrote:And given Picard already saying he can't trust Q, that means he can't trust Q not to throw them to something awful just to spite Picard.
Are you arguing that Picard should have let Q join the crew of the Enterprise?
What should Picard have done in this situation?
Should he have expected to be thrown into mortal danger and - to prevent this - let Q join the crew?
It's always simple to judge a situation looking back at it knowing all that has happened.
I doubt that any captain of Starfleet would have trusted Q and would have allowed him to join the crew.
I really don't think it's an either/or here. It's not "let me join the crew or I throw you into danger" it was "I can help you" "We don't need you're healp we're ready for anything" "Oh really? Let's see then."
What should Picard have done? Be
diplomatic, as he's supposed to be good at. Not reject Q is the smug way that he and Riker did.
Eternal_Freedom wrote:Hence why I said Jellicoe would not have done that - he was far too much of a pragmatist to get into that situation.
What a stupid thing to say. It's not as Picard has choosen to get into such a situation or could have prevented it.
See above, Picard could have prevented it
by not being an arrogant dick about it.
What do you think would Jellico have done in the very first episode if he had to defend mankind put on trial by Q?
What do you think would Jellico have done when Q offered Riker to join the Q-continuum?
What do you think would Jellico have done when Q - after all he has done already - asked to join his crew?
Do you really think that Jellico would have agreed that he needs Q since he is not prepared for what awaits him?
I'm not sure how Jellicoe would have handled the trial. But, based on how we see him act later, it would have been more careful, dare I say, more diplomatic than Picard? As for the rest, well, I suspect that had the trial gone differently Q may not have taken such an interest in the E-D. As for Riker and that mess, well, I doubt Jellicoe would have told Riker "you were right not to try" about saving that child.
Also, if Jellicoe were in command, Riker probably wouldn't be XO if "Chains of Command" is anything to go by.
Eternal_Freedom wrote:Even Keogh was smart enough to evacuate the civilians from Odyssey when going into an unknown but potentially dangerous situation.
Picard was smart enough in the very first episode to separate the ship and go into a battle only with the battle section of his ship.
Keogh, not knowing anything about what awaits him, did not separated his ship and even wanted to go without support of the runabouts from DS9.
Keogh didn't have to separate the ship because he'd evac'd the civilians. As for the runabouts part, that is far more forgivable, since adding two runabouts to a Galaxy class is a meagre improvement at best. And, as noted, he'd already evac'd everyone he could.
Picard, yes, he separated the ship in that first episode. After that? He went into battle countless times with the saucer firmly attached, except for Best of Both Worlds where separating was a
battle tactic, not a way to keep the civilians and children safe.