Replicaitors and raw food stalk

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Re: Replicaitors and raw food stalk

Post by Lord Pounder » 2015-07-16 02:05am

Simon_Jester wrote:I've often thought Troi might not be a political officer, exactly... but she may serve a comparable function in that part of her job is to report on the 'mental health' of the senior officers.

Picard, at least, has some major traumas in his past and is also known for being dogmatic, inflexible, and prone to seriously overworking himself... honestly, having an onboard counselor who keeps an eye on him is well justified. And God knows the original Enterprise encountered a lot of things that could interfere with or disrupt the functionings of a human mind (including, or so he assured us, God). So, again, having an onboard counselor, especially a telepathic counselor, who's capable of determining whether your crew has been affected by alien mind control ghosts is helpful.
She also seemed to help Picard a lot with negotiations telling him when a adversary was bluffing, lying, busting to crap etc. Given the more diplomatic nature of Picards missions she filled a vital role. Apart from the second Dax was there ever any other counsellors mentioned post TNG?
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Re: Replicaitors and raw food stalk

Post by Guardsman Bass » 2015-07-16 02:22am

Eternal_Freedom wrote:I always figured that replicators were ST's future version of ready meals. Tasty enough, easy to use and they fill a hole, but not the most satisfying of cuisine. Can you live on nothing but that? Sure, but it'll get boring quickly and you'll want a change of pace now and then.
They probably produce a fairly standardized version of recipes, that almost always taste the exact same every time they're prepared. I could see people wanting some variety and difference in the types of food they eat, even if it has a large number of recipes programmed (which you'd want for morale reasons, and because you can).
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Re: Replicaitors and raw food stalk

Post by Borgholio » 2015-07-16 08:34am

Also, I don't see any evidence that music other than classical or jazz is somehow discouraged, let alone prohibited- it's just not the preference of the characters we see. That's not really a surprise, either. Trends in music have evolved rapidly ever since 1960 or so and any attempt by the writers to accurately portray what 'pop' music would look like, or which parts of our pop music would withstand the test of time.
Well I never said they were prohibited, but you'd think out of a compliment of over a thousand people, someone would be into some other music style. Voyager has a totally different crew made up partly of rebels and terrorists, and even THEY don't go anything edgier than Jazz. The first time I remember ever hearing rock or metal music is in the Trek reboot in the bar scene.

Would have been fun to see Riker in a holodeck program where he's portraying a member of KISS though...
There's the point that there ARE societies like that on Earth, where casual violence is far more common as a way for certain people to 'control' the behavior of other people. Would you want to live there? If not, reconsider the desirability of living among Klingons.
Well from my current viewpoint, living with casual violence is certainly not a good thing. But if I was in a future which was bland, sterile, and politically correct to an extreme, then "going Klingon" might be the only escape. I will concede though that out of the billions of people and potentially thousands of cultures within the Federation, there could very well be some that are more "fun" than what we see on the E-D. It just would have been nice to see some more diversity on the show.
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Re: Replicaitors and raw food stalk

Post by Simon_Jester » 2015-07-16 10:34am

Lord Pounder wrote:She also seemed to help Picard a lot with negotiations telling him when a adversary was bluffing, lying, busting to crap etc. Given the more diplomatic nature of Picards missions she filled a vital role. Apart from the second Dax was there ever any other counsellors mentioned post TNG?
True. Of course, a good psychiatrist who minds the captain, the kind you'd actually deliberately assign to a ship is significant within the fleet as the Enterprise...

...Would probably be able to avoid an adversarial relationship with the officers and crew, and make herself useful to the ship's actual mission, rather than being a random supernumerary foisted off on them by Starfleet Command.

Even if Troi were truly a political officer, which I for one don't really believe... I like the idea of a political officer who's actually worth something and contributes to the success of the real goal of the organization rather than existing purely to punish those who get out of line.

It conveys their ideological commitment to the success of the overall mission, which is an important part of a political officer's character.
Borgholio wrote:Well I never said they were prohibited, but you'd think out of a compliment of over a thousand people, someone would be into some other music style. Voyager has a totally different crew made up partly of rebels and terrorists, and even THEY don't go anything edgier than Jazz. The first time I remember ever hearing rock or metal music is in the Trek reboot in the bar scene.

Would have been fun to see Riker in a holodeck program where he's portraying a member of KISS though...
Fun, yes- but the rights could get expensive, and it would risk making the episode horribly dated if they pick a 'popular' type of music that is hideously out of style five or ten years later.

Remember how groan-inducing the original series episode with the space hippies was? That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. Even granting that it was groan-inducing back in 1967 or whenever, that's what happens when fiftyish and sixtyish TV executives try to keep their finger on 'contemporary' music.

So again, at least the jazz and classical let people keep their dignity, plus those are musical styles that ARE in the process of surviving the test of time for more than a decade or two, which is a positive indicator for them being likely to survive.

They are also the kinds of music that a single person with normal instruments can most easily practice and participate in, although I agree with you that seeing a holodeck mosh pit would be AWESOME.
Well from my current viewpoint, living with casual violence is certainly not a good thing. But if I was in a future which was bland, sterile, and politically correct to an extreme, then "going Klingon" might be the only escape. I will concede though that out of the billions of people and potentially thousands of cultures within the Federation, there could very well be some that are more "fun" than what we see on the E-D. It just would have been nice to see some more diversity on the show.
There would almost have to be more diversity; there are both Doylist and Watsonian reasons to expect the forms of entertainment portrayed in Star Trek to be... rather staid... compared to the full range of what is available and common in Federation space.
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Re: Replicaitors and raw food stalk

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2015-07-16 11:32am

On that note, something's been bothering me about the TNG era for a while now. Do we realy see any cultures, on EArth or in the Federation, that aren't American? We have Picard with his French family (none of whom sound French aside from the names) and we have the occasional token minority Admiral, but that's about it.

Sure, maybe American culture became ascendant at some point, but there was that global nuclear war that destroyed most major cities and all the governments, so it's difficult to believe that any pre-nuke cultures would survive to the 2300's.
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Re: Replicaitors and raw food stalk

Post by Borgholio » 2015-07-16 12:10pm

Remember how groan-inducing the original series episode with the space hippies was?
Yeah that episode actually came to mind when I was composing my last reply...I think most people try to forget that episode ever happened. :)
I agree with you that seeing a holodeck mosh pit would be AWESOME.
That's one reason I loved the bar scene in the reboot. It showed people actually dancing, and not the ballroom variety. It was familiar to me, as opposed to people watching their shipmates perform Shakespeare (not knocking the Bard at all mind you, it's just not something I've been really interested in).
On that note, something's been bothering me about the TNG era for a while now. Do we realy see any cultures, on EArth or in the Federation, that aren't American? We have Picard with his French family (none of whom sound French aside from the names) and we have the occasional token minority Admiral, but that's about it.
Picard is supposed to be a Frenchman, yet he speaks with a British accent...and his family sounds American. They're definitely oddballs. The only really non-western culture I remember was when Keiko and Miles O'Brien got married. The wedding was in the Eastern style with Keiko dressed in a kimono. But after that they went to the standard TNG-style living.
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Re: Replicaitors and raw food stalk

Post by Terralthra » 2015-07-16 02:52pm

Lord Pounder wrote:She also seemed to help Picard a lot with negotiations telling him when a adversary was bluffing, lying, busting to crap etc. Given the more diplomatic nature of Picards missions she filled a vital role. Apart from the second Dax was there ever any other counsellors mentioned post TNG?
Yes. Miles O'Brien is commanded to see one in season 4, "Hard Time". There's one on Starbase 235 that Nog talks to/about after the Siege of AR-558, who gives progress reports to Ezri Dax. And there's at least one other named counselor to whom Troi tries to refer Barclay when he makes a few guest appearances on Voyager.

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Re: Replicaitors and raw food stalk

Post by Darmalus » 2015-07-16 04:44pm

Simon_Jester wrote:... Doylist and Watsonian reasons...
Thanks, I'd never heard those terms before. They will be added to my lexicon.
Borgholio wrote:Picard is supposed to be a Frenchman, yet he speaks with a British accent...and his family sounds American. They're definitely oddballs.
Wild Mass Guessing: Vast portions of Europe, including France, did not survive WW3. The modern French are actually the descendants of non-French people recolonizing and trying to romantically rebuild the culture based off what they remember or recorded. This is why the ships computer lists French as a foreign language, there are no native speakers.

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Re: Replicaitors and raw food stalk

Post by FaxModem1 » 2015-07-17 02:11pm

Uhura is supposed to be African, from the United States of Africa, with Swahili being one of her native tongues. Hoshi is from Japan, which didn't come up at all, except for one time when she asked T'pol why Montana, as the rest of the world was rather worried during First Contact when the Vulcans landed in the remains of the US, as they wondered what sort of advantage that would give them.

Worf grew up in Minsk, and we see his Russian parents in a few episodes. Chekov also comes to mind when we think of non-Americans.
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Re: Replicaitors and raw food stalk

Post by Purple » 2015-07-17 02:30pm

I think that the most likely explanation is that there is an overlaying "starfleet culture" at play there. That is to say a sort of military culture within starfleet just like the ones that exist within regular militaries. Most of our named characters in almost every series have spent years in the academy absorbing this culture and than years more serving on a starship immersed in it. So even if they have some sort of culture from back home they tend to behave in accordance with the one they live in and are used to.
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Re: Replicaitors and raw food stalk

Post by Pinjar » 2015-07-26 08:05pm

Borgholio wrote:It would probably be quicker to chemically make a block of goop in a factory with the same constituent ingredients as food rather than the food itself. You don't have to worry about being palatable or tasty, let the replicator re-arrange the stuff as needed to do that. The alternative would be to raise a herd of cattle, kill them, then dump them all into a giant food blender and ship it out. That sounds like it would take much longer and take more effort - not something that you want when it's all going to be stored in a vat anyways in the end.
In TNG The Lonely Amoung Us "Riker tells Badar N'D'D, the lead Antican delegate, that Humans no longer enslave animals for food purposes" whatever they are doing to get replicator material its safe to say that it does not involve animals. Morally it seems that they are vegetarians.

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Re: Replicaitors and raw food stalk

Post by biostem » 2015-07-27 06:54pm

Pinjar wrote:
Borgholio wrote:It would probably be quicker to chemically make a block of goop in a factory with the same constituent ingredients as food rather than the food itself. You don't have to worry about being palatable or tasty, let the replicator re-arrange the stuff as needed to do that. The alternative would be to raise a herd of cattle, kill them, then dump them all into a giant food blender and ship it out. That sounds like it would take much longer and take more effort - not something that you want when it's all going to be stored in a vat anyways in the end.
In TNG The Lonely Amoung Us "Riker tells Badar N'D'D, the lead Antican delegate, that Humans no longer enslave animals for food purposes" whatever they are doing to get replicator material its safe to say that it does not involve animals. Morally it seems that they are vegetarians.
Except in another episode, Picard is hosting some sort of diplomatic event, and mentions that they imported real caviar.

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Re: Replicaitors and raw food stalk

Post by Darmalus » 2015-07-27 08:54pm

biostem wrote:Except in another episode, Picard is hosting some sort of diplomatic event, and mentions that they imported real caviar.
There could be a disconnect between propaganda/ideology and the reality.

If the Average Joe lives off the replicator system and is told from birth that the UFP "doesn't enslave animals for food" then it could be very easy for them to believe a system they never interact with doesn't exist, especially if the replicator system is fed mostly via giant vats of algae or something. I remember O'Briens wife being disgusted at the idea of him/his family having handled real meat, so clearly there is a real meat industry somewhere, whatever it's size. A small (protected?) luxury market, perhaps.

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Re: Replicaitors and raw food stalk

Post by Borgholio » 2015-07-27 11:10pm

Except in another episode, Picard is hosting some sort of diplomatic event, and mentions that they imported real caviar.
They don't enslave animals for food, but it's perfectly ok to eat their babies on toast. Riker DID make scrambled eggs once, and nobody had any issues until they actually tasted it. Except Worf, of course.
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Re: Replicaitors and raw food stalk

Post by FaxModem1 » 2015-07-28 02:46am

It could be a difference between the rather cruel conditions we have on our farms, and free range farms that ensure freedom of movement and happiness. I know a few Vegans who will eat free range meat, as the animals didn't have cruel conditions. The UFP might have a similar policy.
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Re: Replicaitors and raw food stalk

Post by Prometheus Unbound » 2015-07-28 04:35am

Darmalus wrote:
biostem wrote:Except in another episode, Picard is hosting some sort of diplomatic event, and mentions that they imported real caviar.
There could be a disconnect between propaganda/ideology and the reality.

If the Average Joe lives off the replicator system and is told from birth that the UFP "doesn't enslave animals for food" then it could be very easy for them to believe a system they never interact with doesn't exist, especially if the replicator system is fed mostly via giant vats of algae or something. I remember O'Briens wife being disgusted at the idea of him/his family having handled real meat, so clearly there is a real meat industry somewhere, whatever it's size. A small (protected?) luxury market, perhaps.
she wasn't disgusted, the reaction was more like he'd said he eats live eels - a "euw" but not like eating your own poo disgusting. "She handled real meat?" She didn't seem concerned about *eating* it (well she wasn't, she was eating a replicated version) but I mean she didn't seem concerned about them eating it, just that they touched it beforehand.

Kinda like people who eat Nuggets and then watch a video on how it's made. And then have some the next week.
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Re: Replicaitors and raw food stalk

Post by Elheru Aran » 2015-07-28 10:58am

Borgholio wrote:
Except in another episode, Picard is hosting some sort of diplomatic event, and mentions that they imported real caviar.
They don't enslave animals for food, but it's perfectly ok to eat their babies on toast. Riker DID make scrambled eggs once, and nobody had any issues until they actually tasted it. Except Worf, of course.
Or perhaps Riker's just... fibbing? Because nobody ever did that in the history of diplomacy ever.

More seriously, there would almost certainly have to be some form of farming. Not factory-farming, perhaps, but something a little more organic and free range. 'enslaving animals' could be a reference to factory-farming mass production methods, while it's perfectly okay to have little family farms (see Picard family vineyard) here and there which quietly slip a few sides of beef to restaurants in exchange for whatever the Federation uses for money.
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Re: Replicaitors and raw food stalk

Post by Borgholio » 2015-07-28 11:20am

'enslaving animals' could be a reference to factory-farming mass production methods,
I could buy that. Hell, the whole "free range" thing is going on right now IRL. It makes more sense than a blanket "We don't eat real meat. Ever."
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Re: Replicaitors and raw food stalk

Post by Prometheus Unbound » 2015-07-28 12:53pm

woah woah woah who said they never eat meat?

I don't think they ever claimed that. Hell in Enterprise Trip goes out of his way to be like mmmmmmm mmmmmmmmmm this is soooooooo goooooooooood when eating a steak in front of T'Pol just to piss her off (as a vegetarian).

Riker goes on about "enslaving" animals - yeah i take that to mean battery or factory type stuff. They presumably have vat-grown meat - I actually can't imagine them having millions of cows slaughtered each year but vat grown - sure. And even to some like Keiko, that may seem a bit "euw..." but... I dunno, times move on and if there's no functional difference between replicated and real - after a generation you wouldn't even know the difference and... it's not like replicated food is gross.

And you always have protein re-sequencers.
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Re: Replicaitors and raw food stalk

Post by Borgholio » 2015-07-28 12:56pm

I don't think they ever outright said that either, but a common reaction in TNG is that meat is icky. In Enterprise, they still ate meat since they were a good two hundred years before TNG. In TOS they ate meat. Kirk liked chicken sandwiches, for instance. But, and please correct me if I'm wrong, we don't see anybody dig in to a steak or carve up a ham. The only turkey I ever remember seeing was replicated.
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Re: Replicaitors and raw food stalk

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2015-07-28 03:21pm

By chance I watched "The Wounded" again the toher day, and Keiko's shock seemed far more at the fact that O'Brien's mother actually cooked the food herself rather than the eating the meat part.

As for eating meat, I'm pretty sure various meats were available at papa Sisko's restaurant.
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Re: Replicaitors and raw food stalk

Post by Prometheus Unbound » 2015-07-28 03:32pm

Borgholio wrote:I don't think they ever outright said that either, but a common reaction in TNG is that meat is icky. In Enterprise, they still ate meat since they were a good two hundred years before TNG. In TOS they ate meat. Kirk liked chicken sandwiches, for instance. But, and please correct me if I'm wrong, we don't see anybody dig in to a steak or carve up a ham. The only turkey I ever remember seeing was replicated.
Well Riker and Picard eat live Gagh, as do many on DS9 - and that's living animals. Picard has special caviar which is real...

Star Trek has always been pretty PC when it came to these things and kinda swept it under the carpet. They're so pussy about everything (sexuality, gender, animal rights, holographic rights / AI rights / religion) that they try to please everyone.

They give the appearance of clean, replicated "no animals were harmed during this production" disney feel, but under it, sure captains, commanders, ambassadors etc will quite happily eat live animals in front of others.

Overall my impression is one that the Federation does not generally use farm animals like we do, but I don't think it's actually outlawed - there's too many times people will happily eat meat and animals. It's just Trek trying to please everyone at once.
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Re: Replicaitors and raw food stalk

Post by Elheru Aran » 2015-07-28 03:42pm

Gagh eating, I always thought, was more an effort to try and acclimate a bit to Klingon customs rather than actually embracing it in an habitual manner. Sort of like visiting another country and trying out the bizarre specialties.
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Re: Replicaitors and raw food stalk

Post by Prometheus Unbound » 2015-07-28 03:43pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:By chance I watched "The Wounded" again the toher day, and Keiko's shock seemed far more at the fact that O'Brien's mother actually cooked the food herself rather than the eating the meat part.
The actual quote was (apologies, subtitles are way out of whack)

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"She cooked?" (amazed but not disgusted)


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"Oh she didn't believe in a replicator, she thought real food was more nutritious."
"She actually handled real meat? She touched it and cut it?"


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"Oh yeah, she was like a ... Master chef!"


Keiko is amazed, but not disgusted, and finds it kinda funny.


As for eating meat, I'm pretty sure various meats were available at papa Sisko's restaurant.
Well as a kid Jake was told his grandad killed that alligator they have hanging there - presumably he didn't and by PC standards the producers would probably say "it died of old age" :roll: but either way, Jake, as a kid, was happy in that knowledge and his grandad and dad found it a funny joke that an animal had been killed for decoration.

So... yeah... I think nearly all meat is replicated, the "top tier" generic is probably vat grown and ,... yes live gagh or chickens laying eggs or fresh shrimp caught by Sisko's dad... perfectly fine.

Kirk happily ate a large Pepperoni in 1986, too when he could have ordered the vegetarian.


I'm sure the "replicated, burnt bird" (as Kurn put it, describing a Turkey meal) doesn't taste as good as a 28 day cured calf but it's a hell of a lot less cruel and a fuck ton probably more delicious than applebys or mcdonalds. But that's an exchange I'd be willing to make - but even then - clearly, they haven't fully made the change even by TNG! It's not like there's some massive federation law, like the SECONDARY DIRECTIVE that says no live animals etc etc. Clearly not because we see it happen! Hell, Sisko and Jake are practicing fishing and lamenting they can't do it on the actual planet of Bajor in Emissary!

Worf's an outlier given he's a Klingon but he's happy to hunt and people don't generally see an issue with it, other than once when Dax pointed out they did already have rations, he didn't need to kill it. But she isn't even human so w/e.

Obviously the Vulcans are vegetarians by choice, though they still even keep pets so they're not a totally omg vegan hippy thing.

btw how many vegans have pets? Just asking.



As for other life forms like Voles on DS9, Sisko has no real issue with them being killed off - he'd rather they'd be left alive but if all else fails... though he is opposed to "vole-fighting" (dog / cock fighting I guess).

But then so am I. And I fucking hate wasps and spiders (like super super) but if there was a nest in my flat and I was given a choice I'd rather it was relocated rather than exterminated because I'm not massively vindictive?

idk.


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Re: Replicaitors and raw food stalk

Post by Prometheus Unbound » 2015-07-28 04:12pm

Elheru Aran wrote:Gagh eating, I always thought, was more an effort to try and acclimate a bit to Klingon customs rather than actually embracing it in an habitual manner. Sort of like visiting another country and trying out the bizarre specialties.
possibly, but it was common enough that they had a restaurant about it on DS9 v0v

I'm sure some of it was out of politeness here and there but if they were dead set against it or had it drilled into them, they didn't seem to put up much of a fuss when it was in front of them.
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