Borg vs Dominion

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Replicant
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Re: Borg vs Dominion

Post by Replicant » 2015-10-12 01:57pm

The Borg are not stupid, lazy and overly focused on efficiency since they will constantly attempt the easiest solution to a problem. They will use the minimum effort they believe will solve a problem.

But vs the Dominion this might work. Assimilate a few Jem Hadar warriors and you learn the massive importance of the "White" for their survival and to keep them loyal.

To me simple Borg logic would be to take advantage of their superior speed to dart around the Dominion in the matter of a few days or weeks and destroy or disrupt as much "White" production as possible.

Just imagine the Founders trying to fight off the Borg while at the same time a they have a massive "White" shortage which is causing Jems to kill Vorta who cannot get them their fix, go rampaging, or just straight up die. Their safeguard could become their greatest liability if they face a foe that is cold enough and properly equiped to take advantage, and the Borg are both.

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Re: Borg vs Dominion

Post by Borgholio » 2015-10-12 03:33pm

I would imagine that the White production facilities are secret and hidden from all but those who need to know. I doubt the rank and file Jem Hadar or Vorta know where they're located.
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Re: Borg vs Dominion

Post by Replicant » 2015-10-12 04:48pm

Borgholio wrote:I would imagine that the White production facilities are secret and hidden from all but those who need to know. I doubt the rank and file Jem Hadar or Vorta know where they're located.
I would assume the Vorta would know, because they are the ones running those facilities and distributing the White to the Jem. I doubt any Founder would sink so low as to be the drug peddler. Also while it could be hidden anyone with decent sensor abilities and processing power could figure it out. The White has to be distributed regularly, you cannot let too much get stockpiled or you risk the Jem seizing that stockpile.

So shipments to the Jem are basically the White and munitions since we know the Jem do not really eat or drink, at least according to Quark. So I could easily see the Borg doing what Data once did when he analyzed several months of Starfleet Command orders and deemed in just a short time period that someone was very subtly manipulating Starfleet. If Data can do that with his computing power then imagine what the collective could do with their technology, their computing power, and any real amount of time to collect sensor data on Dominion ship movments.

Not saying it would be easy, but it would be possible and it would be easier resource wise than smashing headfirst into the Dominion military with the number of Cubes it would take to win.

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Re: Borg vs Dominion

Post by PREDATOR490 » 2015-10-13 02:28am

Attacking Dominion White facilities is the surest and quickest way to go to C). Those facilities should be highly secure and protected.

Logically, the Dominion had a standing fleet of warships somewhere in the Gamma Quadrant. That fleet would be manned by troops and those troops need to be supplied with White. If anywhere in the Gamma Quadrant makes sense for those fleets to be it would be around the White facilities. I find it unlikely the Borg will choose the 'efficient' route of dismantling the Dominion logistics rather than pull the same stunt they tried with the Federation and make a run directly at the Founders to 'force a surrender'

One Borg cube vs. Whatever the standing defense fleet the Dominion has.

First Contact does suggest a Borg cube can be worn down with enough effort and I fully expect the Dominion to be able to throw as much firepower at a cube as the Federation could.

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Re: Borg vs Dominion

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2015-10-13 02:36am

Another thought that occurs to me is that just because the Borg can deduce the Jem'Hadar's dependency on the white does not mean they will know where or how it is produced, and hence what production facilities would look like to target. I would suspect that details of how it is produced is not widely known among the Vorta, in case any of them become sentimental enough to try ad free their troops, and there is absolutely no reason for the Jem'Hadar themselves to know how it's produced (and plenty of reasons for them not to know)
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Re: Borg vs Dominion

Post by PREDATOR490 » 2015-10-13 03:11am

DS9: "Die is Cast" - The Dominion pull 150 ships out of thin air for their ambush
DS9: "In Purgatory's Shadow" - The Dominion send a fleet of 50+ ships as the first wave to Cardassia

Between these two episodes is really the only indication of what kind of numbers the Dominion MIGHT have as fleets in the Gamma Quadrant. I do not see a Borg cube surviving a bullrush against the Founders with those kind of numbers. Another major element is the Dominion ship selection is fantastically limited in depiction.

Ironically, the Dominion SHOULD fair rather well against a single Borg cube because their Bug ships apply the same concept the Defiant was originally designed for. Mass swarm with highly maneuverable ships. Alternatively, the Dominion can build battleships that were twice as big and three times more powerful than a Galaxy class.

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Re: Borg vs Dominion

Post by Replicant » 2015-10-13 03:19pm

PREDATOR490 wrote:Attacking Dominion White facilities is the surest and quickest way to go to C). Those facilities should be highly secure and protected.

Logically, the Dominion had a standing fleet of warships somewhere in the Gamma Quadrant. That fleet would be manned by troops and those troops need to be supplied with White. If anywhere in the Gamma Quadrant makes sense for those fleets to be it would be around the White facilities.
Small hole in the logic.

You have the White to keep the Jem in line and keep them from revolting. How much sense does it make the Jem fleet the primary protector of the White that was created to keep them in line? Talk about asking the Fox to guard the Hen House.

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Re: Borg vs Dominion

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2015-10-13 03:26pm

You don't tell the Jem'Hadr that they're guarding Ketracel White facilities. They are bred to obey and revere the Founders as gods, so if their chosen messengers (the Vorta) say "it's a important weapons factory" or somesuch the ordinary soldiers will accept this.

This also helps with operational security as well.
Baltar: "I don't want to miss a moment of the last Battlestar's destruction!"
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."

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Re: Borg vs Dominion

Post by Replicant » 2015-10-13 03:28pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:Another thought that occurs to me is that just because the Borg can deduce the Jem'Hadar's dependency on the white does not mean they will know where or how it is produced, and hence what production facilities would look like to target. I would suspect that details of how it is produced is not widely known among the Vorta, in case any of them become sentimental enough to try ad free their troops, and there is absolutely no reason for the Jem'Hadar themselves to know how it's produced (and plenty of reasons for them not to know)
Someone knows, a Borg assimilates a Jem and learns that they get the White from the Vorta. Grab a Vorta the same way Picard was grabbed and you learn what the Vorta knows. You also learn that the Jem do not really eat or drink so the only supplies sent to Jem ships are ship materials and the White. Throw enough computer processing power behind decent sensor logs and the Borg could backtrack all those supply ships.

It might not work, maybe they learn that the White is produced in 100,000 different places in small quantities intentionally so that even if the Jem revolted and grabbed one or two they would not be able to produce enough White to sustain a revolt. Or maybe they learn that the Dominion produces the White at three mega-facilities and destroying them will throw the Dominion into chaos.

No way to know for sure. But it is not uncommon for concepts designed to protect against internal threats can be exploited as weaknesses by external foes, or vice versa.

Might make for a fun fan-fic, the Dominion fighting a war against the Borg while millions of White starved Jem alternate between manic violence and their genetically programmed love of the Founders.

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Re: Borg vs Dominion

Post by Replicant » 2015-10-13 03:29pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:You don't tell the Jem'Hadr that they're guarding Ketracel White facilities. They are bred to obey and revere the Founders as gods, so if their chosen messengers (the Vorta) say "it's a important weapons factory" or somesuch the ordinary soldiers will accept this.

This also helps with operational security as well.
LOL, that would be litterally the great con job in the history of con jobs.

"You mean we have been guarding WHAT?!? For how long?!?"

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Re: Borg vs Dominion

Post by PREDATOR490 » 2015-10-13 04:42pm

Replicant wrote:
PREDATOR490 wrote:Attacking Dominion White facilities is the surest and quickest way to go to C). Those facilities should be highly secure and protected.

Logically, the Dominion had a standing fleet of warships somewhere in the Gamma Quadrant. That fleet would be manned by troops and those troops need to be supplied with White. If anywhere in the Gamma Quadrant makes sense for those fleets to be it would be around the White facilities.
Small hole in the logic.

You have the White to keep the Jem in line and keep them from revolting. How much sense does it make the Jem fleet the primary protector of the White that was created to keep them in line? Talk about asking the Fox to guard the Hen House.
How is that a hole ? - We saw Dominion ships re-supplying White stockpiles when DS9 stole the Bug Ship to sabotage it. I would expect that such a facility to be heavily guarded and have numerous ships around it at minimum getting re-supplied. I think a major failing in logic here is the idea the White is the only thing keeping the Jem Hadar loyal.

Did you not see Rocks and Shoals ?
The Jem Hadar are fanatically loyal to the Founders and will die for them with no hesitation. The White is an added insurance so having them guard the facilities where it is made / distributed is not that much of a risk. Vorta are trusted with the important shit and they have suicide implants. One expects Jem Hadar on those facilities will be screened heavily to ensure they are loyal and will vaporize themselves before they compromised the Dominion. It is unlikely the Jem Hadar know how to make White and less likely they will be able to run such a facility for long given the Founder will respond with loyal soldiers to slaughter any rebels.

This is still unlikely to be an issue because the Borg have never demonstrated an approach of this method. From what has been observed, the likely scenario is a Borg cube trying to rush at the Founder homeworld which heavily favors the Dominion winning with anything from heavy to moderate casualties. The Founders dont give a shit about their cannon fodder and during numerous engagements we literally see Bug ships being pissed away with ram attacks.
Frankly, I do not see the Borg fairing well against THAT kind of opposition because the Borg are routinely shown to be slow off the mark. The Federation played into that by being equally slow to ramp up.

I do not see a Dominion ship firing once at a Borg cube and then happily stopping for them to regenerate / adapt or allow a Borg drone to beam aboard and suck the computers dry for tactical information like Q,Who.
The more likely scenario is:

Borg cube meets Dominion ships - "We are the Borg..."
Dominion ships open fire and off to war we go.

I doubt a Borg cube is going to survive against double digit Bug ships or the 150 ships that appeared to defend the Founder homeworld.

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