Federation and in vivo genetics?

[edaw1982]

I know about the Federation about their rabid distrust to any type of genetic augmentation. But the fact that the humans, even accounting for advanced medical technology, seem to live for much longer, and are generally fitter, hardier and such, I have to wonder that there isn't any in-womb treatments for those sorts of things?

I know Julian Bashir was given genetic treatments, in his respect the reason his parents were arrested was because he was 'enhanced'. I don't know whether it's the legal loophole of that was because what was done to him outside the womb (and falls under some legal malaise). But the fact that the humans (more so the protagonists admitidly) can stand up to with aliens who are generally stronger or at the very least, hardier than them.

What are your thoughts on the matter?

[Borgholio]

It is possible to have a population that is strong, fit, and longer-lived just based on medical tech alone. Since the Federation LOVES it's untried and untested medical treatments...they probably inject newborns with all sorts of shit that gives them a leg up on people who have to let their body actually work for itself.

[Broomstick]

A lot of "fitter and hardier" can be attributed to good childhood nutrition, which should be a given in the "no poverty, all needs provided for" Federation; preventive treatments such as vaccines which should be ubiquitous and if anything superior to what we have; public health measures like clean water and sanitation; and good treatments for acute disorders and injury. In fact, a lot of the increased longevity and health of contemporary First World humans can be attributed to 19th and 20th Century versions of the above. It's why average lifespans have doubled in the past two centuries and we didn't need genetic engineering for that.

Past about 60, though, there are the problems that are generally lumped under "old age". We are learning that the elderly have different and distinct nutritional needs and concerns than younger people do, that new vaccinations and/or boosters for old vaccinations are needed, and exercise is more of a boost than we though it would be a generation or two ago. So, if we can make equivalent improvements in elder care as have in those, say, 40 and younger then people living to McCoy's 120 sufficiently healthy to be walking around unassisted isn't that unreasonable. There will probably need to be joint replacements, replacements or assist given to failing organs, and so on but Federation tech has those things.

As we currently have people 100 years old (and slightly older) walking about, mentally normal, and able to care for themselves, in some cases still working, it is certainly possible to retain such a level of health into old age. The big task is figuring out why those people remain so healthy and then figuring out how to bring those blessings to a maximum number of other people.

Yes, genes count. They do affect maximal life span. Perhaps during the eugenics wars, in addition to a lot of other things that went on, the human genome got "scrubbed" and some of the worst genes that cause aging problems were eliminated from the population at large. Also, living to extreme old age may not be universal. It may be that living to 100 becomes as common as living to, say, 70 is now and living to 120 becomes as typical as living to 100 is these days. You'd still have most people dying before that far edge but you have more in total numbers hitting the target.

In short, I don't see the ages for maximal human lifespan under the Federation being that unlikely. Now, if Federation citizens were routinely living to 1,000 that would require an alternate explanation.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Well we already know that the Federation is able to replace organs easily enough. Picard's synthetic heart is a good case in point, as is McCoy's hilarious "take this pill" that grows an old woman a new kidney (or repairs a damaged one, I'm not sure which) in a matter of minutes.

Now if they can do that for kidneys which AFAIK are bloody difficult to repair, then I'd wager they can do that for other organs. That right there takes care of a lot of aging problems.

We also know from Geordi that they are able to bypass/replace nerve tissue with a functionally identical substitute, which is also a big step forwards.

Between those two factors and the nutrition that Broomstick mentioned, you've got a pretty good answer as to why people in the Federation live longer without invoking genetic manipulation.

[Elheru Aran]

We also know from Geordi that they are able to bypass/replace nerve tissue with a functionally identical substitute, which is also a big step forwards.

Not functionally identical; in many ways actually superior (if you're speaking of his movie-era artificial eyes). The VISOR was useful but had some issues (gave him headaches, as I recall).

I'm not sure that with the VISOR they actually replaced his optical nerves as much as they bypassed it and linked directly to the brain, though. That was always the impression I had anyway...

In sum, the Fed doesn't need genetic engineering so much as it already has work-arounds to the basic problems of human biology that work well enough for the great majority of humans. The engineering would be redundant even if some aspects of it are superior to their medical science.

[Eternal_Freedom]

...which is why I said "bypass." And while I was just talking about nerves (since Geordi says in Insurrection that his nerves regenerated, rather than his eyes) rather than the eye itself, the superior eyes are a good point also.

[biostem]

The Federation doesn't seem to be against artificial organ replacement, nanotech, or other exotic treatments, as long as they don't change the patient's base genetics. To that end, while "switching off" a gene that stops aging, for instance, would be illegal, I can imagine that a daily shot that compensated for reduced new cellular growth wouldn't be frowned upon. Similarly, having a little swarm of nanobots that repair damaged organs or compensate for an organ's lessened functionality would probably be alright.

Now add to that the ability for the computer to replicate food that contains a balanced diet, while tasting like anything you want, and you have a recipe for a long life.

One caveat, though - we really don't see too much of civilian life - there are a few scenes at Sisko's father's place, or Picard's family's vineyard, and from the looks, it may be that such a highly regulated lifestyle may be reserved for Starfleet personnel.

[Lord Revan]

and tbh how many really old people do we see that we know for certain are humans?

[edaw1982]

and tbh how many really old people do we see that we know for certain are humans?

McCoy. I mean sure the whole 'Carrying Spock's Katra' thing but the effect can't have been *that* great. He was only carrying it for, what...a few weeks at best? I suppose there'd be some bleed-off effect but it's got to be minimal at best.

I suppose the Starfleeters could get a regular dose of Frietas respirocytes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respirocyte

From the novel "Bloodstar: Corpsman"

All Marines carry a few million Frietas respirocytes circulating through their bloodstreams— artificial one-micron cells that work like the body’s own red blood cells, only far more efficiently. Natural systems that have evolved hit or miss over hundreds of millions of years tend to be pretty clunky compared to human engineering.

Respirocytes are a lot better at carrying oxygen and removing waste metabolytes than RBCs; though they’re one fifth the diameter, they can store and transport 236 times as much oxygen as a red cell , and deliver it to specific cell groups— in the brain, in the heart, in key muscle groups— with targeted precision. It’s been estimated that if the red blood cells in a human’s circulatory system were completely replaced by respiroctes, that person would be able to hold his breath for over an hour— or sprint at top speed for fifteen minutes and never take a breath. We haven’t reached that point yet— it brings us smack up against the Transhuman Debate and the Hopkins Declaration. But injecting Marines with respirocytes dramatically improves their endurance and physical performance , and we’ve been doing it routinely since the late twenty-first century.

[Elheru Aran]

and tbh how many really old people do we see that we know for certain are humans?

Most of them, I would say. There's a few weird ones like the Federation President from ST VI, who's technically an alien in-canon but could be a human with really funky hair and forehead. The President in ST IV is definitely human, though.

Mind you, we don't often see 'really old people'... Picard in All Good Things is probably a pretty good example of what an senior Federation citizen would look like, apart from that whole "it's an illusion of Q's" thing.

...which is why I said "bypass." And while I was just talking about nerves (since Geordi says in Insurrection that his nerves regenerated, rather than his eyes) rather than the eye itself, the superior eyes are a good point also.

oops. Reading fail.

The eyes may be superior though but I doubt they would just offer to replace anybody's eyes. If there's a medical need, sure, but otherwise it seems that they don't go about replacing bits and pieces as desired. We don't see any really ridiculous cosmetic alterations like I'm certain are probably possible; after all, they did turn Sisko and a few DS9 crewers into cosmetic Klingons that passed muster pretty well in one episode.

[FaxModem1]

I remind everyone that we do see genetic alteration before birth in the Federation. In the episode Voyager episode lineage, the Doctor makes some genetic modifications on Miral Paris(Torres and Paris's unborn child) in order to fix a crooked spine from ever developing. The rest of the episode deals with Torres wanting the rest of the baby's Klingon DNA removed due to her fear of her daughter growing up an outcast due to her being the only Klingon around.

Now, while you could say that this is a special case, as they're about 30,000 lightyears away from home at this point, no one seems to blink an eye at the Doctor making a genetic change to their baby. However, when Torres works to make a designer baby, everyone starts to become a bit unhinged about it.

[Broomstick]

I think the distinction there is the difference between fixing an obvious structural defect and making unnecessary modifications

[Batman]

Seconded. There's a difference between fixing genes that are obviously broken and trying to 'improve' on a genome that works just fine.
Especially when in the past, the 'improvements' didn't work out all that well for anybody besides the allegedly improved.

[biostem]

I wonder if *any* degree of genetic modification would leave a trace that can be detected at a later date. For instance, let's say that someone had access to the statistics regarding longevity, intelligence, and physical prowess, and simply engineered their unborn child to be at the top-end of what was considered "normal". Said child could potentially excel in many areas, but technically wouldn't be "superhuman".

Another concept that I don't think they ever addressed was one of "conditioning" - I wonder if they have the capability to simply train a child to excel in science/engineering/combat.

[Simon_Jester]

Recently watched a TNG episode where they have small children learning calculus, so I wouldn't be surprised if the Federation is supposed to have more advanced educational techniques.

Not so sure about combat skills; on the other hand, Federation humans don't really show superhuman combat ability.

[Borgholio]

Federation humans don't really show superhuman combat ability.

I've seen a few cases actually. In DS9 when the Klingons invade the station, Kira beats the shit out of a Klingon who is twice her size and probably three times her weight. Granted she's Bajoran but they never make any references about Bajorans being stronger than normal Humans. So somehow she's able to take on an opponent way out of her weight class. Also somehow, Jadzia can best Worf at the Batleth...

[Eternal_Freedom]

Federation humans don't really show superhuman combat ability.

I've seen a few cases actually. In DS9 when the Klingons invade the station, Kira beats the shit out of a Klingon who is twice her size and probably three times her weight. Granted she's Bajoran but they never make any references about Bajorans being stronger than normal Humans. So somehow she's able to take on an opponent way out of her weight class. Also somehow, Jadzia can best Worf at the Batleth...

That last one is probably due to all the experience Curzon had. Muscle memory is apparently able to (partially at least) transfer to new hosts, as seen by Ezri doing gymnastics in the baseball game against the Vulcans because one of her former hosts could do it.

[Darmalus]

I've seen a few cases actually. In DS9 when the Klingons invade the station, Kira beats the shit out of a Klingon who is twice her size and probably three times her weight. Granted she's Bajoran but they never make any references about Bajorans being stronger than normal Humans. So somehow she's able to take on an opponent way out of her weight class. Also somehow, Jadzia can best Worf at the Batleth...

Kira is a hardened combat veteran with I don't know how many years of combat experience under desperate circumstances, she's probably frighteningly ruthless. I've heard the theory, on this website I think, that Klingon combat training is highly ritualized, possibly to the point of being useless in actual combat. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see a skilled fighter defeat effectively untrained fighters above their weight class.

[Borgholio]

That's a good point, but skilled fighter or not, you can't expect to elbow a man in the stomach when he's clad in scale mail and get him to double over without breaking your elbow in the process unless you're freakishly strong or durable.

[FaxModem1]

Considering that Klingon armor hasn't ever seemed to protect anyone from harm, from phaser fire, knives or anything else, it seems rather more ceremonial than anything else.

[FaxModem1]

Okay, found a video of the fight:

Kira's fighting starts around 5:03

http://youtu.be/lYePPtRE9eQ?t=5m3s

[youtube]http://youtu.be/lYePPtRE9eQ?t=5m3s[/youtube]

Note that the majority of Kira's strikes are on exposed skin, the fist, hand, wrist or face. Even if the armor isn't doing much, Kira is enough of an experienced fighter to aim for the non-armored spots in a brawl.

[Borgholio]

Thanks for that clip. It's been awhile since I saw that scene. Yeah it looks like she DID aim for the vulnerable points, but I noticed something else. Slashing weapons seemed to do a number on the Klingons, which they wouldn't have done if it was metal armor. When I stare at a closeup of the armor it looks padded and not actually metal. That would certainly make a difference...

[Lord Revan]

metal is heavy though, so heavy in fact that when firearms became powerful enough metal armor was phased out and didn't come back until WWI with helmets and other body armor didn't come back until the invent of kevlar and similar materials.

so it's not impossible to assume that klingon armor took it's current form when klingons started using firearms and while they obviously maintain a stronger martial tradition then on earth (you'd hard pressed to find person who knowns how use sword on a battlefield now, let alone over 300 years from now) how that tradition manifested differs from time to time, for example TOS both in prime-timeline and in alt-timeline seemed to preferred to use their disruptors over their melee weapons.

Since most of the enemies of the Klingon Empire don't regulary use melee weapons in the battlefield redesigning the ceremonial armor to better protect against melee weapons isn't really needed.

[Panashe]

I know about the Federation about their rabid distrust to any type of genetic augmentation.

The prohibition against genetic engineering for improvements might apply only to Humans. The law is a United Earth one, and the Federation backs it's application. I can't remember any other Federation species having such a prohibition upon them.

Phlox said in Boardlands that the Denobulans had been openly genetically engineering themselve for centuries, the Denobulans being Federation Members later is questionable, but if they are then a Federation wide ban would make less sense.

Federation humans don't really show superhuman combat ability.

I've seen a few cases actually. In DS9 when the Klingons invade the station ...

It's this, and some other scenes in the show, that leads me to believe that Klingons are not even as strong as Humans. Klingon aren't completely weak, but are maybe 90 to 95 percent the strenght of a Human of the same general size and muscle tone.

[Irbis]

From the novel "Bloodstar: Corpsman"

All Marines carry a few million Frietas respirocytes circulating through their bloodstreams— artificial one-micron cells that work like the body’s own red blood cells, only far more efficiently. Natural systems that have evolved hit or miss over hundreds of millions of years tend to be pretty clunky compared to human engineering.

Respirocytes are a lot better at carrying oxygen and removing waste metabolytes than RBCs; though they’re one fifth the diameter, they can store and transport 236 times as much oxygen as a red cell , and deliver it to specific cell groups— in the brain, in the heart, in key muscle groups— with targeted precision. It’s been estimated that if the red blood cells in a human’s circulatory system were completely replaced by respiroctes, that person would be able to hold his breath for over an hour— or sprint at top speed for fifteen minutes and never take a breath. We haven’t reached that point yet— it brings us smack up against the Transhuman Debate and the Hopkins Declaration. But injecting Marines with respirocytes dramatically improves their endurance and physical performance , and we’ve been doing it routinely since the late twenty-first century.

Million? Would that even do anything? Being 240 times better is all good and nice, but humans have 20–30 trillion red blood cells at any given time, making it a tiny drop in the bucket.

Ah, Star Trek, where bad math is a feature, not a bug

Seconded. There's a difference between fixing genes that are obviously broken and trying to 'improve' on a genome that works just fine.

And where do you draw the line between fixing and working just fine? Is gene that breaks when you're 3 years past average life expectancy fine or not? Is muscle 15% weaker than norm, but still within human average, broken or not? Is a gene that makes your wounds heal twice as fast, but increases chance of blood clots and strokes if you don't eat perfectly balanced diet, broken or not?

It's always possible to move the barrier just that single additional step forward, especially given how wonky work the evolution did with 'working fine' and given how much people care about giving their kids good start.