How would the U.S.S. Vengeance fare...

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How would the U.S.S. Vengeance fare...

Post by biostem » 2014-04-28 08:58pm

How do you guys think the U.S.S. Vengeance from Star Trek Into Darkness would fare against:

1. The Narada from the 1st of the Star Trek Reboots

2. The Enterprise D from Next Generation

3. The Enterprise E from the Next Generation Movies

4. A Borg Cube


Thanks for your feedback! :)

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Re: How would the U.S.S. Vengeance fare...

Post by Lord Revan » 2014-04-28 09:07pm

impossible to say as we never see what kind of defenses the Vengence has, while the fire seems relatively speaking impressive.

EDIT: the thing is that we never see the Vengence in battle, as the Enterprise never fires back, only tries to run away. Spoiler
the Cryo-pod torpedos don't count as they exploded inside a cargo hold and thus by-passed any defenses
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Re: How would the U.S.S. Vengeance fare...

Post by Prometheus Unbound » 2014-04-29 02:43am

Didn't they say it was twice the size, three times the power? (or twice the power, three times the size?)


The Nerada would destroy it easily. So would the rest, I think.
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Re: How would the U.S.S. Vengeance fare...

Post by DaveJB » 2014-04-29 01:23pm

Bearing in mind the Narada could have destroyed the Enterprise with just two weapon volleys and was only temporarily disabled by getting rammed by the Kelvin, I doubt the Vengeance would stand much of a chance. Might inflict some damage with those huge torpedo launchers, but probably nothing major.

Harder to say how it would fare against a TNG-era Starfleet ship, since NuTrek ships apparently have much faster warp drives than their prime universe counterparts, but we haven't heard much about their weapons capabilities. It'd probably turn into a battle of attrition, and the Vengeance's nature as a dedicated warship may give it the edge over the E-D, but probably not the E-E.

A Borg cube would probably steamroller the Vengeance pretty easily, given that the only time Starfleet has actually destroyed a Borg cube involved a gigantic fleet and Picard's residual connection to the collective.

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Re: How would the U.S.S. Vengeance fare...

Post by Borgholio » 2014-04-29 01:27pm

A Borg cube would probably steamroller the Vengeance pretty easily, given that the only time Starfleet has actually destroyed a Borg cube involved a gigantic fleet and Picard's residual connection to the collective.
What are the Borg like in the AU anyways? I mean basic concepts such as the speed of warp drive has been revised, so what impact would it have on the Collective?
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Re: How would the U.S.S. Vengeance fare...

Post by Elheru Aran » 2014-04-29 01:35pm

*sigh* "So would the rest, I think"? Such a compelling argument. :roll:

Consider: the Vengeance was made to fight a war, not explore. It's a battleship rather than a starship. Yes, the Narada is from the "future", but that doesn't automatically make it better. The Borg cube also has a decent chance as well, but Ent-D and Ent-E would be more of a match. Ent-D in particular would probably lose-- while it's a big craft, the Vengeance outguns it. Ent-E is a closer match in firepower but we don't know how much of a match exactly.

One thing to bear in mind is that nu-Trek ships are apparently built far tougher than old-Trek. The Enterprise re-entered Earth atmosphere without power and came to a screeching halt before it lifted off again. That'd have shredded most old-Trek ships with ease.

Borgholio: From lack of specification in the OP, I presume we are dealing with old-Trek Borg as it would be pointless to speculate about nu-Trek Borg.
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Re: How would the U.S.S. Vengeance fare...

Post by Lord Revan » 2014-04-29 03:30pm

have we seen the Vengence fire any other weapons then the rapid fire bolt guns at the sides of of the Navigational Deflector? the shown guns have rather limited firing arcs and the big guns have way too long a charge time to seem all that effective in combat (except maybe against a Borg cube or the Narada)
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Re: How would the U.S.S. Vengeance fare...

Post by Borgholio » 2014-04-29 03:33pm

I'm wondering if the big guns really were designed as bombardment weapons...against a station or planetary target perhaps.
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Re: How would the U.S.S. Vengeance fare...

Post by Lord Revan » 2014-04-29 06:36pm

Borgholio wrote:I'm wondering if the big guns really were designed as bombardment weapons...against a station or planetary target perhaps.
it's certainly possible, problem being that we really don't see the Vengence at it's intended role.
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Re: How would the U.S.S. Vengeance fare...

Post by biostem » 2014-04-29 07:38pm

You guys bring up some really good points. Do we ever see the Vengeance fire on a shielded Enterprise? I mean, that alpha strike it got in already severely damaged it...

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Re: How would the U.S.S. Vengeance fare...

Post by Borgholio » 2014-04-30 02:13am

I don't think we really have seen any "straight" ship on ship fights in the AU yet. Nerada vs everybody else is a curbstomp, Enterprise vs a Nerada that's stuck in a black hole, Vengeance sucker-punching Enterprise at warp...

We need the next movie to have the big E taking on a Klingon ship or two.
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Re: How would the U.S.S. Vengeance fare...

Post by Sidewinder » 2014-04-30 02:51pm

Borgholio wrote:We need the next movie to have the big E taking on a Klingon ship or two.
No, what we need is to have the Big E take on a ROMULAN ship or two.

That's one of my gripes against J. J. Abrams' half-assed "reboot." In the first movie, a ROMULAN terrorist attacked the Federation and destroyed Vulcan- and destroyed a Klingon fleet on its way to Vulcan. Both the Federation and the Klingons (in the tie-in comic books) specifically identified this terrorist as a ROMULAN. Logically, what the Federation and the Klingons should be doing, is to ally with one another against their mutual enemy, i.e., the ROMULANS. Even if neither side expects the alliance to last long- probably no longer than the Prime continuity's Romulan-Klingon alliance- they should expect it to last long enough for their (Starfleet and the Klingon Defense Force's) military technology to catch up with the ROMULANS' "Super-Science from the Future!" Adm Marcus' attempt to provoke a Federation-Klingon War, is something the ROMULANS would welcome, as it would weaken both of the ROMULANS' current rivals- something that either makes him a ROMULAN agent, or a ROMULAN pawn.

(Yes, I know the tie-in comics had Nero refuse to provide aid to the Romulan government of the 23rd century, because he saw the past government as the same as the one that let his home world die in the 24th century, meaning any aid would be wasted- he even destroyed a shuttle of Narada crewmembers who wanted to warn the 23rd century Romulans of the supernova. But how would Starfleet intelligence know this? From the Klingons? The tie-in comics specifically portrayed Nero as being resistant to Klingon interrogation techniques, revealing nothing before he escaped Klingon captivity! No competent Starfleet Intelligence officer will assume "Oh, we don't have to worry about the possibility a time-travelling enemy WHO WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR DESTROYING THE VULCAN HOME WORLD might share futuristic weapon technology with his own home world." Even if Nero hated the 23rd century Romulan government as a past incarnation of the 24th century one, what about his father, grandfather, or great-grandfather? What about his crewmembers' fathers, grandfathers, or great-grandfathers? Find one of his ancestors, go, "I'm one of your descendants. I am here to warn you of a future cataclysm, and the technology to avert this. Proof? I will provide a DNA sample, and technology from my time," and this ancestor will be able to demand peerage- a noble title, and a high position in the Romulan government- in exchange for what Nero can provide!)
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)

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Re: How would the U.S.S. Vengeance fare...

Post by Gandalf » 2014-04-30 11:34pm

He's racially Romulan, but not politically Romulan. That much is obvious when he states that he doesn't represent the Empire, because they "stand apart." He's a lone nut with a loyal crew and a big gun.

Personally, I'd like to see the next film have no ship combat, just awesome discovery stuff.
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Re: How would the U.S.S. Vengeance fare...

Post by Sidewinder » 2014-05-01 01:41am

Gandalf wrote:He's racially Romulan, but not politically Romulan. That much is obvious when he states that he doesn't represent the Empire, because they "stand apart." He's a lone nut with a loyal crew and a big gun.
And what competent Starfleet Intelligence officer will plan defenses based on this assumption? 'Into Darkness' had Khan declare himself as such, and Kirk's crew claimed the same- that Khan wasn't representative of the Federation- when the Klingons caught them on Q'onoS, trying to catch Khan himself. Did the Klingons buy that? If you were a Klingon forensic investigator, trying to find out how and why a Starfleet vessel penetrated Klingon defenses and then killed a bunch of Klingon warriors ON THE KLINGON HOME WORLD, would you buy that?

Remember that, as the movie audience, we have access to info the movie characters don't have. How can Starfleet Intelligence be certain Nero actually was a lone nut? Was the Romulan government actually ignorant of Nero's actions, means, and motivations? Or are they simply claiming "plausible deniability"?
Personally, I'd like to see the next film have no ship combat, just awesome discovery stuff.
That may be a welcome change from the recent movies' "pew-pew lasers light show," but as Chuck noted in his 'Transformers' review, sci-fi movies' special effects cost MONEY, and with the amount they must invest to make the movie, the studios will want to "play it safe."
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)

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Re: How would the U.S.S. Vengeance fare...

Post by DaveJB » 2014-05-01 04:50am

It wouldn't surprise me if Starfleet Intelligence actually did start drawing up information on a potential new Romulan threat, only for Admiral Marcus to brush it off because he was convinced that the Klingons were the real threat and/or thought it wouldn't matter either way with all the superweapons Khan was making for him.

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Re: How would the U.S.S. Vengeance fare...

Post by Sidewinder » 2014-05-01 10:51am

DaveJB wrote:It wouldn't surprise me if Starfleet Intelligence actually did start drawing up information on a potential new Romulan threat, only for Admiral Marcus to brush it off because he was convinced that the Klingons were the real threat and/or thought it wouldn't matter either way with all the superweapons Khan was making for him.
This just demonstrates Marcus is incompetent or insane- and by consequence, the scriptwriters are incompetent for make such an incompetent character a military leader in a non-comedy movie. Can you imagine Adm Ernest King brushing off Office of Naval Intelligence reports on the "potential new Japanese threat" in January 1942, i.e., AFTER THE JAPANESE ATTACK ON PEARL HARBOR?
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)

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Re: How would the U.S.S. Vengeance fare...

Post by Lord Revan » 2014-05-01 11:22am

Tbh we don't know what the Romulan Star Empire did after the Narada incident, it's been at least months between Star Trek(2009) and Star Trek Into Darkness, for all we know The Romulans did their best to convince that Nero was in fact acting alone and UFP has no reason to ally with the Klingons to wipe them out.

Personally I think the Dreadnaught-class was something Starfleet had been working also in the prime-verse but there, it was shut down as an unneeded drain on resources, while in Abrams verse the apprence of the Narada allowed Admiral Marcus to demand the extra resouces.Spoiler
Also Commander Harrison aka Khan probably helped them solved issue that made it inviable in prime verse.
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Re: How would the U.S.S. Vengeance fare...

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2014-05-01 11:40am

Into Darkness takes place after Praxis has exploded (early apparently) so Gorkon was not in a position to set up peace talks. Couple that with the Klingons losing 47 ships to the Nerada and we have the Klingons building up their military even moreso than the prime universe, and Starfleet naturally does to, only there are no Khitomer Accords to put a halt on things.
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Re: How would the U.S.S. Vengeance fare...

Post by Elheru Aran » 2014-05-01 11:40am

The nu-Trek tie-in comics, I have no idea what their canoncity is but they do offer an explanation for what the Romulans are doing. Between the Trek movie and the sequel,
Spoiler
A group of Vulcans decide to take revenge on the Romulan Star Empire by collecting fragments of red matter left from the destruction of their planet and "giving" it to the Romulans. This is foiled by Kirk and company, of course. Later on, Section 31 gets the Romulans involved in fighting the Klingons, who have figured out some of the Narada's Borg technology and incorporated it into their own ships. Section 31 then proceeds to blow up everybody. So right now the Federation has a slight upper hand but the Romulans and Klingons may be pretty grumpy at them as well as each other. Lovely little three-way situation going on.
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Re: How would the U.S.S. Vengeance fare...

Post by DarthPooky » 2014-05-01 04:15pm

the one thing that I was disappointed with the new abrams movies is that we didn't have any strait up fleet or ship to ship battles. like what we saw in DS9. the closet we saw was the kelvin and the narada but that wasn't relatively equal and the fleet at Vulcan but that wasn't vary equal either and not shown plus I wanted to see star fighters kind of bummed out about that maybe in the third one. but I still loved them anywise. :)

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Re: How would the U.S.S. Vengeance fare...

Post by Tribble » 2014-05-02 10:45pm

1. I doubt the Vengeance would win against the Narada, but I'm certain it would put up a better a lot better fight than the Enterprise did. We don't know exactly how powerful it is, but apparently the Enterprise was so outclassed that even Kirk chose to run away rather than pick a fight. In fact, I don't think he even bothered to fire a shot at the Vengeance, and he pinned all of his hopes on sabotage and (later on) trickery.

2. If this fight is with the same crews, the Vengeance stands a decent chance of winning against the E-D, even if it has a tech disadvantage. Admiral Marcus is a far more aggressive leader than Picard, and he wouldn't hesitate to strike first, and strike hard. IMO Picard's reluctance to fight a fellow officer combined with the E-D's well known design flaws put's the E-D at a disadvantage. All it'd take is a couple of good hits and the E-D could be totally disabled and/or destroyed. Whereas the Vengeance survived (albeit was disabled by) the detonation of 72 photon torpedoes going off inside it. Although we don't know the exact yields involved, I highly doubt the E-D could take something like that without being blown into a cloud of debris.

3. The E-E appeared to have none of the obvious weaknesses of the E-D (like having a warp core explode because someone looked at it funny) and it appeared to be the E-D's superior in nearly every respect except for size. Also, although this is pure speculation on my part it seemed to me like Starfleet developed the quantum torpedo because they had reached the practical limits of what could be achieved with photon torpedoes. If that's the case, the E-E's quantum torpedoes could be the deciding factor here, even if the Vengeance were equal it in every other respect. I would give the advantage to the E-E, even with Picard in command.

4. This one depends on heavily on context. In a first encounter with the Borg (I'm assuming main universe), like the E-D the Vengeance would stand a chance of winning if started firing with all weapons before the Borg has beamed aboard the ship, downloaded the contents of the computer, knocked the shields out and started carving out chunks of the hull. Unlike Picard, I'm pretty sure that the moment a Borg drone beamed over Marcus would start firing. Also unlike Picard, he would probably keep firing until either his ship blows up or the Borg Cube does, and I wouldn't be surprised that if all else failed he would resort to ramming it. This would be an interesting fight to watch as the Borg wouldn't have the time to adapt to the Vengeance's weapons, and the only reason why they wouldn't be destroyed right away would be due to the sheer size of the Cube.

If this were a post-first encounter and the Borg had been given the opportunity to attempt adaptation, I don't think the Vengeance would remotely stand a chance on it's own. Even if the adaptation was imperfect, I think the damage would be reduced enough that it would take a fleet of ships to bring a Cube down (like STFC). And the Vengeance was a prototype, not a representative of the fleet as a whole. I doubt NuStarfleet would be able to handle a Borg incursion, especially if they had been given the opportunity to adapt first.
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Re: How would the U.S.S. Vengeance fare...

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2014-05-03 12:04pm

Something I think it's worth remembering is that the Narada is only ever shown firing missiles, which means they have a limited supply. The new-verse Starfleet knows how to use it's phasers as point-defence, and the Big E seemed remarkably capable of shooting nearly all of the missiles fired at it (only one actually hit IIRC). So if the Vengeance knows what it's up against at isn't caught unawares (like the fleet at Vulcan) I can see them shooting down all the missiles fired at it while those big guns chew the Narada to pieces.
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Re: How would the U.S.S. Vengeance fare...

Post by Simon_Jester » 2014-05-08 02:16pm

Possible. Then again, Narada has room to store a LOT of missiles.
Elheru Aran wrote:*sigh* "So would the rest, I think"? Such a compelling argument. :roll:

Consider: the Vengeance was made to fight a war, not explore. It's a battleship rather than a starship. Yes, the Narada is from the "future", but that doesn't automatically make it better.
On the other hand, Narada's weapons effortly destroy entire fleets of nuTrek ships with one or two shots. Vengeance is built a lot bigger and tougher... but that much?
The Borg cube also has a decent chance as well, but Ent-D and Ent-E would be more of a match. Ent-D in particular would probably lose-- while it's a big craft, the Vengeance outguns it.
Of course, the Borg cube also outguns the Enterprise-D, by at least an order of magnitude, so that suggests the cube has a decisive edge over the Vengeance.
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Personally, I'd like to see the next film have no ship combat, just awesome discovery stuff.
That may be a welcome change from the recent movies' "pew-pew lasers light show," but as Chuck noted in his 'Transformers' review, sci-fi movies' special effects cost MONEY, and with the amount they must invest to make the movie, the studios will want to "play it safe."
Hey, it worked for Avatar.
Lord Revan wrote:Tbh we don't know what the Romulan Star Empire did after the Narada incident, it's been at least months between Star Trek(2009) and Star Trek Into Darkness, for all we know The Romulans did their best to convince that Nero was in fact acting alone and UFP has no reason to ally with the Klingons to wipe them out.

Personally I think the Dreadnaught-class was something Starfleet had been working also in the prime-verse but there, it was shut down as an unneeded drain on resources, while in Abrams verse the apprence of the Narada allowed Admiral Marcus to demand the extra resouces.Spoiler
Also Commander Harrison aka Khan probably helped them solved issue that made it inviable in prime verse.
There are references to superheavy 'dreadnought' ships built using the same technology as the Constitution-class, but larger and more powerful, in the TOS era. Wish I could remember where from; it's from some of the Trek EU novels.
Eternal_Freedom wrote:Into Darkness takes place after Praxis has exploded (early apparently)
What? On what do you base that statement?
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Re: How would the U.S.S. Vengeance fare...

Post by Borgholio » 2014-05-08 03:30pm

What? On what do you base that statement?
He's probably basing it on the existence of the debris field around the planet.
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Re: How would the U.S.S. Vengeance fare...

Post by FedRebel » 2014-05-08 03:49pm

Elheru Aran wrote: Consider: the Vengeance was made to fight a war, not explore. It's a battleship rather than a starship. Yes, the Narada is from the "future", but that doesn't automatically make it better.
And it's implied that the Vengeance was in response to the Naranda.
The Borg cube also has a decent chance as well,
Unless the Vengeance's registry is 74656, a cube will rape it.
but Ent-D and Ent-E would be more of a match. Ent-D in particular would probably lose--
The E-D's worst enemy is it's own warp core, if the Vengeance can output a volume of fire to overload the shields...just one more torpedo to the back of the neck will kill the E-D.

The E-E built to be more combat capable..while still balancing the exploration mission, she can take a beating and can dish out her fair share. A 100 years tech advantage over the Vengeance should put the E-E on top.
while it's a big craft, the Vengeance outguns it. Ent-E is a closer match in firepower but we don't know how much of a match exactly.
I would hypothesize that the Vengeance makes up for the 100 year tech gap at the expense of efficiency, as an example the ship would have larger torpedos that match 24 century yields (the V has bigger 'coffins')
One thing to bear in mind is that nu-Trek ships are apparently built far tougher than old-Trek. The Enterprise re-entered Earth atmosphere without power and came to a screeching halt before it lifted off again. That'd have shredded most old-Trek ships with ease.
Given that some 24th century designs like the E-D are literally held together by their structural integrity fields, that's true.

The original E-Nil on the other hand [accidentally] did the warp slingshot..around a 'black star' (blackhole) with far less damage than the BoP did around Sol. Nu-Kirk had to call the Mac Genius' after the red matter wormhole cracked the rebooterprise's bridge.

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