What happened to the Borg ship from "The Neutral Zone"?

[Borgholio]

On a related note, what exactly were the Borg planning to do if the had successfully reached Earth? There's what, maybe 100,000 drones up against billions of people?

Remember just how fucking stupid the Federation is regarding weapons. They'd keep trying to "re-modulate" phasers until the cows came home and the Borg would keep adapting and assimilating more and more people until the whole planet was Borg. Nobody seemingly had the bright idea of using sharp sticks or museum weapons such as swords to physically cut down the Borg.

If the Feds were smart, they'd use "primitive" weapons to hold off the Borg invasion while more starships were recalled to Earth. Then just set a few on autopilot to ram the Borg Cube at warp and problem solved. Follow that up with an orbital bombardment to take out any large concentrations of drones and the invasion is over.

But the that relies on the Feds being smart.

[Prometheus Unbound]

On a related note, what exactly were the Borg planning to do if the had successfully reached Earth? There's what, maybe 100,000 drones up against billions of people? Would they be launching a ground invasion? Would they be trying to beam people up one by one? Or would they be ripping cities out of the ground like what happened in the Neutral Zone and J-25? I mean, sure, a Cube is pretty large by spaceship standards, but its manpower and resources are much more limited compared to the capital world of the federation. Or maybe their goal was to lay that transwarp conduit seen in the final episode of Voyager, in the expectation that more ships would come later? I don't think they we're planning on time-travel the whole time, as Darth Wong points out the Queen was probably just trying to avoid getting fried by the Enterprise.

Well, this was back before other Borg episodes. Until this point, the only known thing that could stop the Borg was Q himself.

and in universe, Q is meant to be basically a god.

Later episodes, sure, make asking those questions relevant but at the time, basically there was a massive (in some scenes, such as when the Ent-D is warping off next to it, 1000 cubic kilometres) ship in orbit with possibly millions or billions of drones on-board.

And yes, they'd be scooping up the cities, annihilating space dock, destroying the infrastructure... assimilating the entire planet.

Hell, a Sphere managed it in earlier times in ST:FC - 9 billion assimilated humans.

How? who knows. They were certainly capable of it, or gave the impression of it, back in 1990.




Of course, later years and episodes - it makes a bit less sense - but this was also Peace Federation. You think they'd start nuking their own cities? I don't.

They'd have assimilated Starfleet Command in the first instance and from there spread all over the planet.

Damn it, I wish they never featured the Borg after TBOBW.

[Tribble]

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I agree that in BOBW that the Borg were fully capable of curb-stomping the entire federation. What was the Borg in STFC trying to accomplish? They must have noticed that unlike in Wolf 359 their ship was taking a beating. By the time it reached Earth the shields had failed and they had suffered heavy damage to the out hull. Even if Picard hadn't shown up in all likelihood the fleet would have eventually taken the Cube down, especially if they started resorting to ramming. And yet instead of doing the prudent thing by withdrawing, which would give them time to repair the damage and regenerate their shields, they keep going in a straight line. Were they hoping that their ship would hold together long enough to assimilate Earth? I mean, they must have known that unlike last time the Feds would do their best to keep up the pressure by constantly sending in reinforcements (We hear the fleet request reinforcements right from the beginning, and IMO the botanist's line that "there's another ship coming in" implies that the Enterprise was just the latest ship to have arrived at the battle).

[StarSword]

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I agree that in BOBW that the Borg were fully capable of curb-stomping the entire federation. What was the Borg in STFC trying to accomplish? They must have noticed that unlike in Wolf 359 their ship was taking a beating. By the time it reached Earth the shields had failed and they had suffered heavy damage to the out hull. Even if Picard hadn't shown up in all likelihood the fleet would have eventually taken the Cube down, especially if they started resorting to ramming. And yet instead of doing the prudent thing by withdrawing, which would give them time to repair the damage and regenerate their shields, they keep going in a straight line. Were they hoping that their ship would hold together long enough to assimilate Earth? I mean, they must have known that unlike last time the Feds would do their best to keep up the pressure by constantly sending in reinforcements (We hear the fleet request reinforcements right from the beginning, and IMO the botanist's line that "there's another ship coming in" implies that the Enterprise was just the latest ship to have arrived at the battle).

That's the Borg for you. Single-minded, hyper-focused complete retards. Groupthink on a societal scale. If Starfleet or indeed anyone in the entire 24th century franchise had any sense of tactics at all, they would've been a one-shot threat, reacted to with roughly, "Well, that was bracing. Let's go take a look at that pulsar over there."

[Prometheus Unbound]

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I agree that in BOBW that the Borg were fully capable of curb-stomping the entire federation. What was the Borg in STFC trying to accomplish? They must have noticed that unlike in Wolf 359 their ship was taking a beating. By the time it reached Earth the shields had failed and they had suffered heavy damage to the out hull. Even if Picard hadn't shown up in all likelihood the fleet would have eventually taken the Cube down, especially if they started resorting to ramming. And yet instead of doing the prudent thing by withdrawing, which would give them time to repair the damage and regenerate their shields, they keep going in a straight line. Were they hoping that their ship would hold together long enough to assimilate Earth? I mean, they must have known that unlike last time the Feds would do their best to keep up the pressure by constantly sending in reinforcements (We hear the fleet request reinforcements right from the beginning, and IMO the botanist's line that "there's another ship coming in" implies that the Enterprise was just the latest ship to have arrived at the battle).

Shhhh.




Don't think. Just... watch.

[Prometheus Unbound]

oops, double post.

[Batman]

Later episodes, sure, make asking those questions relevant but at the time, basically there was a massive (in some scenes, such as when the Ent-D is warping off next to it, 1000 cubic kilometres) ship in orbit with possibly millions or billions of drones on-board.

I'd like to see a screenshot that shows the Cube to be 10 kilometres a side given that's more than 15 times the length of a Galaxy.class. Those buggers are big, but they're not that big.

[Borgholio]

The size of the standard cube is about 3km per side, which = about 28 cubic km. Pretty big to be sure, but not nearly THAT big.

[Prometheus Unbound]

Later episodes, sure, make asking those questions relevant but at the time, basically there was a massive (in some scenes, such as when the Ent-D is warping off next to it, 1000 cubic kilometres) ship in orbit with possibly millions or billions of drones on-board.

I'd like to see a screenshot that shows the Cube to be 10 kilometres a side given that's more than 15 times the length of a Galaxy.class. Those buggers are big, but they're not that big.

I pulled that figure out of my ass.

the Ent-D is 643 metres in length.

Here's a shot of it engaging warp next to a cube (from TBOBW), whilst it skims across its surface.




I dunno. 10x bigger? 8? In any case, it's clearly meant to be gigantic in comparison.

I know in VOY's... Dark Frontier a cube was meant to be "28 cubic kilometres" which would be put it about 3km per side. the one in TBOBW is more than that (definitely 5-6km if you put the Ent-D pixel by pixel, but the Ent-D had "clearance" room on the sides.

I think cubes must be different sizes since a Tactical Cube is way smaller and the one we saw in the clip I linked a few posts above is CLEARLY less than 3km on a side, since Voyager is next to it and that's only about 70-100 metres tall itself.

I say the one in TBOBW is between 5 and 10km per side, some later ones are smaller, some are (possibly) bigger. The ones seen in Scorpion are probably 1-1.5km per side.



---------------------- in any case

I simply meant to say that in TBOBW (and Q-Who), the Borg Cube was meant to be "the ultimate" thing. HUGE. Dwarfing anything and everything the Federation had. That it was a threat to Earth.

Then, later on, it wasn't. Cos stupid.

[Prometheus Unbound]

The size of the standard cube is about 3km per side, which = about 28 cubic km. Pretty big to be sure, but not nearly THAT big.

Ahh, be careful. Is it?

That figure comes from Dark Frontier, when the hansen's measured their particular one at "28 cubic kilometres".

And thus roughly 3km per side.

Spheres have been all manner of sizes. The Cube that tractored Voyager in Scorpion part 1 was smaller. The Tactical Cube in Unimatrix Zero was much smaller, too.

Hugh's Cube can't have been that big since it only had 5 drones on board.

[Prometheus Unbound]

I'd like to add, that episode (TBOBW) had some scaling problems. In my video that has every frame of the cube, there's one warp scene with the Enterprise following the cube, which actually makes the Enterprise about the same size as the cube. And in Q who, there's a warp scene in which the enterprise is LARGER than the cube (!).

[Batman]

Try 3-5 times. Yes, the Cube is visually shortened by perspective, but so is the Big E. Unless you want to argue the E-D is considerably closer to the camera than the Borg vessel, no way it's 8-10 (leave alone 15+) times a Galaxy's length.

[Prometheus Unbound]

I would argue the Ent-D is closer ... because it is - that's why it can comfortably (twice, in the episode) engage *warp* and turning, whilst it's directly in front of it.

15 times? maybe not

[Batman]

I said considerably closer, not closer period (which is a 'd'uh' given the E-D is between the camera and the Cube). As for her engaging Warp, that turn is considerably sublight and we don't see the Warp flash until after she completes that turn and in TNG the Captain ordering 'Warp whatever, course XYZ, engage' is routinely followed by the ship remaining at sublight while she turns to her new course, then engaging Warp drive.

[Prometheus Unbound]

I'd still say that particlar scene shows the cube, assuming the Ent-D is 643m long, as more than 3km per side. Much more. Maybe even up to 6 or 7.


However, for a moment let's place that aside.

I present you with this image:


and this video:




In those, and definitely in the second video there, the Enterprise is actually bigger than the damn cube.

Same as when it comes out of the Nebula in TBOBW, actually.

[Batman]

Are you on drugs? In the picture the Enterprise is partially obscured by the Cube. It's not only a fraction of the width of the Cube, it's obviously behind it. Bigger than the Cube my kevlar-clad behind.
As for the video, um, no. Again, there's this little thing called 'perspective'. A ship zooming across the screen and looking really big, then another ship zooming across the screen tells us jack all about their size unless we know how far they were from the camera. If they're in the same frame we can at least make educated guesses.

[Prometheus Unbound]

Are you on drugs? In the picture the Enterprise is partially obscured by the Cube. It's not only a fraction of the width of the Cube, it's obviously behind it. Bigger than the Cube my kevlar-clad behind.
As for the video, um, no. Again, there's this little thing called 'perspective'. A ship zooming across the screen and looking really big, then another ship zooming across the screen tells us jack all about their size unless we know how far they were from the camera. If they're in the same frame we can at least make educated guesses.

In the first one, if you extrapolate its size compared to the cube, taking into account the fact that it's meant to be at least 5-6 times smaller, it doesn't work.

In the second one, the cube is smaller as it passes - the camera doesn't change.

It's a scaling error.

Or is this one of those "NO SCALING ERRORS / PRODUCTION ERRORS DON'T EXIST, EVERYTHING MUST BE EXPLAINED" ?

Don't be such an autist about it.

The Enterprise and the Cube change size throughout the episodes.

Nice ad hominem with the drugs, though. Classy.

[Tribble]

Inconsistent scaling is the least of the Borg's problems. As Chuck points out, when Voyager and the tactical cube duke it out in Unimatrix Zero, it's the tactical cube which suffered most of the damage, to the point where it took hours just to repair itself enough to go back into warp.

EDIT: In all of the shots the tactical cube is a lot smaller than a standard cube, and based on what we see it's nowhere near as powerful. Seven never actually stated that the tactical cube was more powerful than a regular one, she only implied that Voyager wouldn't stand a chance against it. After-all, Voyager can't even go toe-to-toe with a sphere. The term "tactical cube" can mean anything... perhaps the designation refers to a ship which is primarily designed for quick, rapid responses to incursions in Borg territory, rather than a vessel capable of launching an all-out invasion of another species like the standard cube.

[Eternal_Freedom]

The term "tactical cube" can mean anything... perhaps the designation refers to a ship which is primarily designed for quick, rapid responses to incursions in Borg territory, rather than a vessel capable of launching an all-out invasion of another species like the standard cube.

I think you can make a pretty good argument for this. Consider, the normal Cubes are used for planetary assaults and assimilations...which are strategic things. The tactical cube, armed, armoured, was most likely built for fighting other vessels (they're clearly smaller than standard cubes, and logically less capable on the "assimilate a planet" front...and none were seen attacking that planet in Dark Frontier. Of course it's possible it wasn't designed by then)...possibly as a result of the Borg's failures against the Federation (Seven recognized it, and I can't recall if she joined Voyager before or after the events of First Contact) or possibly their problems with Species 8472 (Seven may have learned of it in Dark Frontier, possibly).

If I'm right, it would actually be a nice example of the Borg actually adapting to new threats. The Borg send a standard cube against the Federation, it does incredibly well until being gimmicked to death. So the Borg don't change their tactics for the next attempt...because they worked. This time though, Starfleet has purpose-built warship classes ready to fight them, and they do a hell of a lot better than before. And around this time the Borg get involved in a war where their standard do-anything Cubes get pasted. So they adapt, field new designs built specifically for combat.

Which would also make the Borg, in their conflict with 8472, mirror the Federation's fight with the Borg: Both the Borg and the Federation use "do everything" types of ships (cubes, Ambassadors, Mirandas, Nebulas etc) and suffer for it, so they design and deploy purpose built warships (tactical cubes, Akiras, Defiants, Sabres etc.).

Blimey, that was longer than I thought it would be.

[Tribble]

Perhaps the tactical cube is smaller simply because it doesn't have the empty space that a regular cube has. The regular Cube being hollow actually makes sense from an assimilation standpoint - if your ripping up starships and cities, all that material has to go somewhere! The tactical cube seems to be specifically designed to fight and destroy other starships rather than assimilate them, so extra space isn't needed. Not only that, the empty space would just make the tactical cube more prone to damage if any hits penetrate the hull. The Cube in STFC was likely destroyed because the damaged section had exposed one of these empty spaces, which allowed the weapons fire to travel deep inside.

[FaxModem1]

We actually do see the 'hangar' that the Borg cubes have in the Voyager episode "Collective" wherein the Delta Flyer and the Brunali ship Icheb was brought in on were stored(as we later found out in "Child's Play" that Icheb was the bioweapon that wrecked the ship in the first place), probably to be assimilated if the cube was fully crewed, but were just left there due to the crew of the cube being reduced to five children.

A shot of the hangar with the Delta Flyer on the left and the Brunali ship on the right.


Trekcore link

[Prometheus Unbound]

Later episodes, sure, make asking those questions relevant but at the time, basically there was a massive (in some scenes, such as when the Ent-D is warping off next to it, 1000 cubic kilometres) ship in orbit with possibly millions or billions of drones on-board.

I'd like to see a screenshot that shows the Cube to be 10 kilometres a side given that's more than 15 times the length of a Galaxy.class. Those buggers are big, but they're not that big.

HA!






From Q-Who


Which would make it approximately....



And it's still going forward and hasn't cleared the ship yet!



what?

[Tribble]

You know, those pics have gotta make you wonder what the HELL Picard was thinking when he decided to park the E-D within throwing distance.

I also miss the look of these cubes... their haphazard design was what made them both unique and threatening. The "solid" design from STFC onwards just doesn't have the same impact.

[Prometheus Unbound]

Yeah I do have to wonder what was going through his mind.

Q has been royally pissed off, he's thrown 7k light years away.

Guinan says "head back, NOW." and "they destroyed my planet".

They've just taken part of the Enterprise away, knocked down the shields.

"oh gee, let's sit here".

What?

[Borgholio]

Back to what I said earlier, I wouldn't have stopped with two phaser strikes if I was in Picard's shoes. I'd have thrown everything I had at them then run like hell before another cube showed up. All his conferences did was to give the Borg time to adapt and regenerate.