Dominion v. Borg

[Tribble]

While the Dominion would lose a war in the long run, they would do a hell of a lot better than the Federation. Given that both sides can be equally ruthless and suicidal, the war would be one of attrition, and the Borg's superior firepower, speed and numbers would eventually prevail.

However in an initial encounter I think things would go very differently. If the Dominion equivalent to a Galaxy-Class were to encounter a single Borg Cube for the first time I'd say it would win, no question. The E-D was able to cause significant damage to the Cube the first time around, and that was after the Borg had gathered info from the E-D's computer. Had the E-D kept firing it's conceivable that it would have been able to destroy the Cube outright. The moment a Borg drone beams over to the Dominion ship it's probably going to be killed, and the Dominion would immediately open fire in retaliation. Seeing as the they do not pull their punches, I'm willing to bet the Cube would be destroyed before it has the time to adapt. A first encounter in a similar vein to the one in "Q-Who" would likely result in the Borg getting curb-stomped, but as everyone stated above, the Dominion wouldn't win in a war.

[NecronLord]

The Borg can't lose. Absolute best case scenario for the Dominion is the Borg treat them like the Federation - a single cube at a time.

Best case scenario the Dominion are able to create or already have the pictogram-virus (what with their having infiltrated starfleet in the war) that destroys the collective from I Borg, use it, and destroy the collective root and branch. Or a "neuralitic pathogen."

Both ways to completely, utterly destroy the borg collective in the canon, the latter of which actually did the job.

Remember, STO and things are fanfic. In the canon the borg are dead. The Federation exterminated them, with no survivors. To suggest that the Dominion couldn't do so either is... unlikely, I suspect.

Now, you can say these are silly which is true, but it is unquestionably part of the canon that Picard had the option to destroy the borg and did not do so. It was stated on screen and even referred to in a later episode (where Admiral Necheyev IIRC, chews him out) but to say the best case scenario is that the Dominion can't do what a single UFP starship did in a day is also silly.

[NecronLord]

CRUSHER: He suffered massive internal injuries. We've been able to control the haemorrhaging, but some of the implants in his brain were damaged. I may have to remove them.
PICARD: The Borg will die if they're removed permanently. Their brains grow dependent on the biochips.
CRUSHER: Perhaps Geordi can construct some new implants.
LAFORGE: They contain relatively straightforward programming, interface protocols. We have the files we downloaded after your experience, Captain. I think I can manage it.
PICARD: Mister La Forge, do you know enough about Borg programming to alter the pathways to their root command structure?
LAFORGE: I'm not sure, sir. The subroutines are pretty complicated. I'd probably have to study the data processing algorithms. It's the only way I could trace the access codes.
PICARD: If we could get to the root command, we could introduce an invasive programming sequence through its biochip system and then return it to the hive.
LAFORGE: The Borg are so interconnected it would act like a virus.
PICARD: Which would infect the entire Collective. We could disable their neural network at a stroke.
CRUSHER: Infect it? You make it sound like a disease.
PICARD: Quite right, Doctor. If all goes well, a terminal one.
[Observation lounge]
LAFORGE: If this works the way I think it will, once the invasive programme starts spreading, it'll only be a matter of months before the Borg suffer total systems failure.
PICARD: Comments.
CRUSHER: A question. What exactly is total systems failure?
DATA: The Borg are extremely computer dependent. A systems failure will destroy them.
CRUSHER: I just think we should be plain about that. We're talking about annihilating an entire race.
PICARD: Which under most circumstances would be unconscionable. But as I see it, the Borg leave us with little choice.
RIKER: I agree. We're at war.
[...]
LAFORGE: That's it, Captain.
PICARD: It looks harmless enough.
LAFORGE: We had to disguise it as something innocuous. The Borg have ways of screening out programme anomalies.
PICARD: How can a geometric form disable a computer system?
DATA: The shape is a paradox, sir. It cannot exist in real space or time.
LAFORGE: When Hugh's imaging apparatus imprints this on his biochips, he'll try to analyse it.
DATA: He will be unsuccessful, and will store the shape in his memory banks. It will be shunted to a subroutine for further analysis.
LAFORGE: Then when the Borg download his memory, it'll be incorporated it into their network, then they'll try to analyse it.
DATA: It is designed so that each approach they take will spawn an anomalous solution. The anomalies are designed to interact with each other, linking together to form an endless and unsolvable puzzle.
PICARD: Quite original. How long before a total systems failure?
LAFORGE: Not until the shape has gone through several hundred computational cycles.
PICARD: When can you begin the process?
LAFORGE: About another twenty hours. Doctor Crusher wants to make sure the new implants have taken hold.
PICARD: Very well. Begin as soon as you're ready.
(Data leaves)
LAFORGE: Captain. I have to admit I've been having second thoughts about this plan.

Supplemental: one could say that Picard's experience as Locutus gives him special insight here, but it's only the idea that's his, and it's not a very complicated idea. It's certainly a possible outcome for the Dominion to deploy something like that; they certainly have the will, as the victims of the Quickening will tell you, to muddy their hands.

Relevant also is that Geordi assesses the technical complexity of the implants involved as "Fairly straightforward."

Now you may say 'why haven't the borg had this happen to them before?' the obvious response is of course, that the majority of Delta Quadrant races, the Hirogen etc, are much less advanced than the Federation... and the Dominion, who are more advanced in many areas than the Federation.

While I won't go so far as to say 'The Dominion would win' there are non-shooting means of destroying the Borg Collective, and we know the Dominion is prepared to engage in terrorism, biological weapons, and other such non-conventional tactics. It is certainly not impossible for the Dominion to win. Just as it was not impossible for the Federation to destroy the borg in TNG, as stated explicitly on screen in multiple episodes and never contradicted.

[Lord MJ]

The Borg can't lose. Absolute best case scenario for the Dominion is the Borg treat them like the Federation - a single cube at a time.

Best case scenario the Dominion are able to create or already have the pictogram-virus (what with their having infiltrated starfleet in the war) that destroys the collective from I Borg, use it, and destroy the collective root and branch. Or a "neuralitic pathogen."

Both ways to completely, utterly destroy the borg collective in the canon, the latter of which actually did the job.

Remember, STO and things are fanfic. In the canon the borg are dead. The Federation exterminated them, with no survivors. To suggest that the Dominion couldn't do so either is... unlikely, I suspect.

Now, you can say these are silly which is true, but it is unquestionably part of the canon that Picard had the option to destroy the borg and did not do so. It was stated on screen and even referred to in a later episode (where Admiral Necheyev IIRC, chews him out) but to say the best case scenario is that the Dominion can't do what a single UFP starship did in a day is also silly.

There is no evidence in canon, that the virus in Endgame succeeded in destroying the Borg. All we know is that it fucked it up pretty good, but for all we know the collective was able to reestablish itself, albeit weakened. Furthermore, even if it did work, it would require the Dominion to have direct access to the Borg Queen and unicomplex. Something that is beyond the Dominion's reach.

Furthermore, in every other instance when someone has tried to use a virus, computer program, etc to destroy the Borg, it has failed to do anything other than cause damage that failed to spread. If the Enterprise has succeeded in using the pictogram virus, it's likely only a single ship, or maybe even multiple ships would be affected, but it wouldn't crash the collective.

[Tribble]

I think the key to the pictogram virus was that it was disguised, and that its effects would only kick in after a matter of months. Data's command to put the Borg into a regenerative cycle was an obvious and immediate intrusion, and they clearly had enough time to limit the command to a single ship. Ditto for Hugh's introduction of "individuality."

I think the pictogram virus' success highly depends on what the Borg decide to do when they see the puzzle. Given what we've seen from TNG's Borg, IMO they would have figured out pretty quickly that the puzzle was unsolvable and discarded it as a waste of time. The damage would have been limited to a few ships at best. If it's Voyager's Borg we're talking about, I could see them going "ohh look! Shiny unsolvable puzzle!!!" and spreading it around to every single ship as fast as possible.

[NecronLord]

There is no evidence in canon, that the virus in Endgame succeeded in destroying the Borg. All we know is that it fucked it up pretty good, but for all we know the collective was able to reestablish itself, albeit weakened.

This requires unknown terms, what we know in the canon is that they were devastated, speculating they rebuilt is fair enough, but there is no canon evidence for it, and there is canon evidence for the pathogen being catastrophic.

Furthermore, even if it did work, it would require the Dominion to have direct access to the Borg Queen and unicomplex. Something that is beyond the Dominion's reach.

Access to the queen is much more easily obtained than you suggest. Queens lead attacks, repeatedly. A Queen was on the cube at Wolf 359, and on the cube at the Battle of Sector 001 had one. The attack on Species 10036 was led by a queen. Why would the queen not lead a war against an opponent of a size the borg have never engaged before?

Furthermore, in every other instance when someone has tried to use a virus, computer program, etc to destroy the Borg, it has failed to do anything other than cause damage that failed to spread. If the Enterprise has succeeded in using the pictogram virus, it's likely only a single ship, or maybe even multiple ships would be affected, but it wouldn't crash the collective.

How do you know? Why is it you know better than Geordi and Picard, and whatever analysts Admiral Necheyev has? What evidence is there that contradicts their knowledge?

You're right that sometimes pathogens have caused limited damage, but of course, limited damage is still damage. These are not the same type of infection as the pictogram-virus however, and so there is no contradiction there. The other example even a genetic adaptation, playing directly to dominion strengths:

SEVEN: I've been studying Brunali culture. It's very different from what you've become accustomed to on Voyager.
ICHEB: In what way?
SEVEN: They're an agrarian society. Their technological resources are limited.
ICHEB: Are they capable of space travel?
SEVEN: Yes, but most of their vessels were destroyed by the Borg.
[...]
JANEWAY: That cube was disabled by a deadly pathogen. It suffered extensive damage. Isn't it possible these records were corrupted?
[...]
YIFAY [on viewscreen]: He's fighting for his people.
SEVEN: Alone, on an unarmed transport?
LEUCON [on viewscreen]: We don't have particle weapons or powerful starships at our disposal. We're forced to use the only resource we have.
SEVEN: Your children?
YIFAY [on viewscreen]: No. Our genetic expertise.
JANEWAY: Icheb's not bait. He's a weapon. The first Cube that captured him was infected by a pathogen. Icheb was the carrier, wasn't he?
[...]JANEWAY: Are you saying his parents re-infected him?
EMH: No, they merely sedated him.
SEVEN: I don't understand.
EMH: He was genetically engineered to produce the pathogen, from birth.
JANEWAY: Bred to kill Borg.
SEVEN: Is he in danger?
EMH: I can suppress the pathogen. He'll be fine, physically.
[...]
ICHEB: I could have destroyed that sphere. I failed them.
SEVEN: You would have been reassimilated.

Here is an example of a pathogen infecting individual borg ships for you - this is what the evidence suggests in this case - notable however, is that it was something bred into the boy, something everyone expects to work repeatedly, including Seven the Borg Expert, and of course, the borg were not intelligent enough not to re-assimilate the kid, or at least, no one expects them to.

The Dominion, of course, has master genetic-engineers, and vast resources. Certainly spawning a generation of Jem'hadar with a similar pathogen would be easy (ready to fight in seven hours!) for them, and the borg will continue assimilating something even when it is objectively harmful to try (Scorpion, this episode) so will continue assimilating Jem'hadar and losing entire cubes to single Jem'hadar pathogen-carriers until the cows come home.

The Brenali option for fighting the borg might seem evil, and it perhaps is, but it is also effective; single transport ships with single children on them can destroy entire cubes and spheres. There is no evidence the borg won't fall for the same trick twice - they do in the episode - or that they can 'adapt' to it.

I think the key to the pictogram virus was that it was disguised, and that its effects would only kick in after a matter of months. Data's command to put the Borg into a regenerative cycle was an obvious and immediate intrusion, and they clearly had enough time to limit the command to a single ship. Ditto for Hugh's introduction of "individuality."

I think the pictogram virus' success highly depends on what the Borg decide to do when they see the puzzle. Given what we've seen from TNG's Borg, IMO they would have figured out pretty quickly that the puzzle was unsolvable and discarded it as a waste of time. The damage would have been limited to a few ships at best. If it's Voyager's Borg we're talking about, I could see them going "ohh look! Shiny unsolvable puzzle!!!" and spreading it around to every single ship as fast as possible.

There is only one borg collective, it appears in both series. The 'borg in voyager are dumb' thing doesn't hold up to scrutiny, the borg only appear in 4 stories of TNG, and in two of those they are screwed up by the power of friendship, and in the other one, they are easily commanded into allowing their ship to explode by all falling asleep. Their competence in TNG is purely a subjective impression based on the coolness of their incidental music and other such factors; they are no more capable in Best of Both Worlds than in Dark Frontier.

Them going "ohh look! Shiny unsolvable puzzle!!!" and spreading it around to every single ship as fast as possible is actually part of the TNG canon!

I also note that if you want thousands of cubes dominating the Delta Quadrant, you have to accept Voyager as canon. There's no indication of such scale from the borg in TNG's four borg stories.

You guys don't get to decide how Star Trek works. I have shown evidence with quotes that the pictogram virus would destroy the collective. To rebut that this is a possible means for a race without transwarp to destroy the collective, you must now show evidence to the contrary.

Every indication is that pathogens - including biological weapons (!) are distinctly effective weapons against the borg collective.

[Lord MJ]

[quote="NecronLord"]This requires unknown terms, what we know in the canon is that they were devastated, speculating they rebuilt is fair enough, but there is no canon evidence for it, and there is canon evidence for the pathogen being catastrophic.[quote]

Actually the only evidence we know for sure is that the Unicomplex was exploding, and the Queen lost contact with the rest of the Borg ships. We have no evidence of any other damage to the Borg at all. We have no evidence of what happened to the rest of the Borg ships, planets, facilities, etc.

[seanrobertson]

Hiya, Necron!

I have a number of thoughts on this, but I only have a minute to post right now*.

Most important is that I don't see enough compelling evidence to conclude the Borg were destroyed outright. But I also find it very interesting that both Janeways spoke of "dealing a crippling blow to the Borg," usually in the context of wiping out the transwarp network. I can't help but to wonder why they'd talk about crippling the Borg when, in reality, they expected their actions to actually FUBAR the entire Collective.

But more on that soon, hopefully. Nice to be back.

*I'm still recovering from intestinal surgery (time permitting, I'll post particulars in the HOS vent thread), and when I do feel like sitting up for extended periods, my pain-killers ... well ... tend to make me talk a lot of nonsense.

Yes, even more than usual
Sean.

[NecronLord]

I will concede to over-stating the point with the neuralitic pathogen, I was misremembering the actual episode; however, the point remains that the borg can be devastated by viruses, and in canon it was outright stated that showing them a funny picture would kill them all, which I've provided quotes for.

I think this comprehensively addresses the claim that 'the Dominion could never defeat the borg' - drawing a funky picture can defeat the borg, albeit not instantly.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I'm not so sure on the funny picture thing. It was created by Data, who had interacted directly with the Collective in TBOBW (and therefore understood it better than anyone who isn't/wasn't a drone) and Picard (IIRC) said it would work, based on his own experience as a former drone. That's informationt he Dominion are not going to get I think.

Now, I'm not saying it will be impossible for them to create such a problem, but I wonder if such a solution woudl even occurr to them. Brute force military strategies, yes, cunning political ploys, yes, germ warfare, yes, but clever technobabble computer virus solutions? I don't think so.

[Batman]

That depends to some extent on whether the war with the AQ already happened. If it did then there's a reasonable chance they got their hands on that information given there was some infiltration of Federation ranks if memory serves.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Whilst that is true it seems like a fairly low-priority thing for the infiltrators to try and learn. A proposed (and untested) method of destroying an enemy on the far side of the galaxy that they had no current or future plans against. When you consider the useful tactical and strategic information they could be acquiring on the Federation/Klingons/Romulans it seems likely that this would be a very low priority, if they even knew to look for it.

[NecronLord]

Brute force military strategies, yes, cunning political ploys, yes, germ warfare, yes, but clever technobabble computer virus solutions? I don't think so.

The quote I showed before shows that an agrarian society with limited remaining space assets was able to create a genetic-pathogen that totals borg cubes when they assimilate a carrier (and the borg keep coming back for more!). Germ warfare is viable on the borg. Immensely potent against them in fact.

Not that I am sure why you think the Dominion is bad at computer warfare? They have them after all.

Whilst that is true it seems like a fairly low-priority thing for the infiltrators to try and learn. A proposed (and untested) method of destroying an enemy on the far side of the galaxy that they had no current or future plans against. When you consider the useful tactical and strategic information they could be acquiring on the Federation/Klingons/Romulans it seems likely that this would be a very low priority, if they even knew to look for it.

Why would the borg not be a priority for the Dominion? The borg are an immense threat.

The Dominion are at least intended to be good long term planners:

The Dominion knew the Federation was out there long before the wormhole was opened, and they had plans to deal with the Federation when the Federation was projected to enter their space in two hundred years, and they were building slowly towards that, that's why they sent out Odo in the first place. But then the wormhole opens up and suddenly the Federation is in their backyard today and it just throws everything into question for both the Federation and the Dominion. (The Birth of the Dominion and Beyond, DS9 Season 3 DVD special features)

That implies (though it is behind the scenes material) at least that the Dominion was planning for fighting one enemy hundreds of years in advance on the other side of the galaxy. I can't imagine why they'd not be interested in and drawing plans against the borg, if they've not had contact already.

[Metahive]

It's never tested if the "funny pattern" image would actually work so saying it would surely destroy the Borg Collective is somewhat premature. All other "Borg Busters" are shown to only ever affect one isolated ship at a time, except for the neurolithic virus which however presumably came from future and had to be assimilated by the Queen herself.

The reason why I think the Borg could handily destroy the Dominion is because the two major weaknesses of the Dominion, slow to innovate and adapt due to rigidly enforced mental inertia, are the two areas where the Borg shine*. All those attempts to come up with a silver bullet for the Dominion to use against the Borg just underline that since that's an admission that the Dominion couldn't overwhelm the Borg without and who says the Borg won't just deploy a silver bullet on their own? The Dominion has plenty of weak spots on its own to exploit after all.



*before anyone says that the Borg can not innovate but only steal innovation based on what's said in Scorpion, remember that they were the ones who invented a reliable way to access foreign dimensions first. Not even the ever-innovative Federation managed to do that on a stable and repeatable basis before them.

[NecronLord]

It's never tested if the "funny pattern" image would actually work so saying it would surely destroy the Borg Collective is somewhat premature.

It is canon that people with expertise believe it will. Why will you not show your counter-evidence from the canon, instead of speculating endlessly?

The reason why I think the Borg could handily destroy the Dominion is because the two major weaknesses of the Dominion, slow to innovate and adapt due to rigidly enforced mental inertia, are the two areas where the Borg shine*.

Are you fucking kidding me?

The borg have roughly pound for pound firepower with Federation ships.

BORG [OC]: A vessel has been detected. Unimatrix four two four grid one one six. Activate. Alter course to intercept. Vessel identified. Federation Starfleet, Intrepid Class, one hundred forty three life-forms. Prepare for assimilation. We are the Borg. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile.
JANEWAY [on monitor]: Break off your pursuit, or we'll open fire.
BORG [OC]: Irrelevant.
JANEWAY [on monitor]: Is it? You've scanned our vessel. You know we can match your firepower.

The Borg Probe, which is roughly the same size (the script has it that it's half the length of voyager though obviously being a solid shape it's bulkier anyways, the ship as shown on screen is roughly the same size) as Voyager, and the borg have been around for hundreds thousand years.

The Dominion has been around for at most ten thousand years and is stated to have superior weapons to the Feds, and indeed, any other weapon the Feds have encountered before - even borg weapons don't slice right through UFP shields:

OFFICER: I'm getting casualty reports from decks four, five, eight and seventeen. We also have a plasma leak in our port nacelle.
KEOGH: Deploy damage control teams.
OFFICER: Aye, sir.
KEOGH: Keogh to runabouts.
KIRA [OC]: Go ahead.
KEOGH: They're using some kind of phased polaron beam to penetrate our shields.

[Runabout Mekong]

DAX: Have you tried altering your harmonics to compensate?

[Odyssey Bridge]

KEOGH: We've run through the full spectrum, but none of the frequencies were effective. Divert shield power to weapons. We'll give O'Brien five more minutes

There is no reason to presume the Dominion develop technologically slower than the Borg.

The borg are a hundred times older than the UFP and are equal in combat to equivalent size UFP vessels. (Happily for the borg the Federation has no three kilometer cubed leviathan ships)

SHOW YOUR EVIDENCE.

Bonus points: Rotating shield frequencies doesn't work on Dominion phased polaron beams. Demonstrate from the canon (show evidence) that the borg will be able to block Jem'hadar ships' weapons. The evidence I am aware of shows that the borg 'adapt' by adjusting frequencies, and that this is useless against the Dominion's weapons, therefore, there is no reason to think that the Dominion could not continue shooting straight through Borg shields with absolute impunity.

Additional: Jem'hadar fighters are equivalent in manouverability to the Defiant, roughly, and the Defiant is shown in First Contact to be capable of evading borg weapons and pouring fire on it. Why is a Jem'hadar fighter, with its ability to punch through shields on the first shot, rated so poorly against the Borg when the Defiant is obviously highly effective?

All those attempts to come up with a silver bullet for the Dominion to use against the Borg just underline that since that's an admission that the Dominion couldn't overwhelm the Borg without and who says the Borg won't just deploy a silver bullet on their own? The Dominion has plenty of weak spots on its own to exploit after all.

The fact that the Borg never do. They need Voyager's help developing nanoprobes to combat 8472 and the Queen later needs Seven's help to devise a silver bullet to assimilate one Federation world.

QUEEN: Isn't it obvious? You're going to help us assimilate humanity. We failed in our first attempt to assimilate Earth, and we won't succeed the next time unless we understand the nature of their resistance. We want you to be our eyes. Let us see humanity.
[...]
QUEEN: Your knowledge for the target species is invaluable. Species five six one eight. Human. Warp capable. Origin, grid three two five. Physiology inefficient, below average cranial capacity, minimal redundant systems, limited regenerative abilities. Our previous attempts to assimilate them were all direct assaults. They failed, so we've created a more surreptitious strategy.
SEVEN: You intend to detonate a biogenic charge in Earth's atmosphere.
QUEEN: It would infect all life forms with nanoprobe viruses. Assimilation would be gradual. By the time they realised what was happening, half their population would be drones.
SEVEN: Inefficient. The virus would take years to proliferate.
QUEEN: We've waited this long. Interface with the central alcove. Begin programming the nanoprobes. Be sure to enhance the viral sequencers. You've been involved in hundreds of assimilations. This is no different.

That by the by, is the Borg Queen convinced that she can't defeat the Federation without Seven of Nine's help. IE, she gets Seven, states on screen that she needs her to help with sneaky things, she loses seven, and then the sneaky things never happen.

Using wide-scale dispersal of nanoprobes wasn't even an idea the borg came up with on their own; that was something Janeway showed them earlier! And they still need a human's help to implement it!

JANEWAY: All right. We've analysed one of the alien vessels, and it appears to be constructed of organic material vulnerable to the modified nanoprobes. I suggest we begin thinking about a large-scale delivery system, a way to infect their ships and destroy them at the microscopic-
BORG [OC]: We will begin.

The borg ability to produce silver bullets is non-existant. They are even frightened away from the Federation ("We won't succeed next time") by losing one or two cubes, unless they have a human help make them a silver bullet!

*before anyone says that the Borg can not innovate but only steal innovation based on what's said in Scorpion, remember that they were the ones who invented a reliable way to access foreign dimensions first. Not even the ever-innovative Federation managed to do that on a stable and repeatable basis before them.

No, one statement overrrides another only when they contradict. The borg started the war with 8472 by invading fluidic space. The borg assimilate, not invent. These do not contradict; "The borg assimilated the knowledge of how to access Fluidic space from an unknown third species" is a postulate that retains both statements as true, therefore it is the correct answer.

[Metahive]

t is canon that people with expertise believe it will. Why will you not show your counter-evidence from the canon, instead of speculating endlessly?

How about you present canon evidence first that it definitely works? There are numerous occasions where Federation personnel had access to the Borg collective's nervous system (like Unimatrix Zero), why don't they ever try to insert their Funky Image then? If it was such a game changer surely every Fed ship would be given it just in case they'd stumble upon the Borg, no?
Also, if this really worked as advertised, simply displaying this form over the viewscreen whenever a Borg ship comes a-hailin' should be enough. Obviously this is also never happens.

There is no reason to presume the Dominion develop technologically slower than the Borg.

Yes, there's plenty. The Founders are xenophobic and distrusting or actively hostile towards anything that behaves outside what they've set as norm. You can't see how this attitude would hinder innovativeness? Want evidence? Section 31, a clandestine organisation managed to develop a lethal bioweapon against the founders, yet the Dominion with its entire wealth of resources could not come up with a cure, despite the fact that this cure was simple enough that a human being could remember it from scratch. This is simply pathetic.

The Borg Probe, which is roughly the same size (the script has it that it's half the length of voyager though obviously being a solid shape it's bulkier anyways, the ship as shown on screen is roughly the same size) as Voyager, and the borg have been around for hundreds thousand years.

This is based on fallacious reasoning. Size and firepower do not automatically go hand in hand. A modern missile destroyer weighs less than a battleship yet the former could easily sink the latter. Also, since the probe is a most probably a recon vessel of some sort, we might as well say that much of its interior is taken up by sensory equipment instead of weapons and shield systems.

CHAKOTAY: It was only a probe. Next time, we might not be so lucky.

Against cubes and spheres they are however chanceless as seen in The Drone where a single sphere overwhelms Voyager easily and even counters their techbabble silver bullet without effort.

The Dominion has been around for at most ten thousand years and is stated to have superior weapons to the Feds, and indeed, any other weapon the Feds have encountered before - even borg weapons don't slice right through UFP shields:

The Dominion has been around that long yet loses its technological edge over the Federation before open war even begins, keeping only their superior industrial capabilties. During the second Borg incursion in First Contact you can hear panicked shrieks over radio over warp cores breaching and stuff blowing up only seconds after the cube is engaged. I think that handily proves the firepower of a Borg ship.

There is no reason to presume the Dominion develop technologically slower than the Borg.

Here's the list of things the Dominion develops over the course of the war: Alpha Jem'hadar which have practically no effect on the war and plasma rifles to replace the polaron guns. Presumably because they're cheaper to manufacture since they lack the whole anti-coagulant effect. They don't even find a solution to the Ketracel White shortage caused by Sisko's sabotage and have to import it from the Son'a. The battleship is an arguable case since that might as well be a design from the Gamma quadrant.

Bonus points: Rotating shield frequencies doesn't work on Dominion phased polaron beams. Demonstrate from the canon (show evidence) that the borg will be able to block Jem'hadar ships' weapons. The evidence I am aware of shows that the borg 'adapt' by adjusting frequencies, and that this is useless against the Dominion's weapons, therefore, there is no reason to think that the Dominion could not continue shooting straight through Borg shields with absolute impunity.

The Phased Polaron Beam is said to be devastating to Federation shields, not shields in general, as Weyoun states during the attack on DS9. It's also a techbabble weapon the Federation eventually counters without even having to majorly overhaul their ships (unlike what they had to do to counter the Breen dampening device). You're also wrong about Borg adaption, in Dark Frontier, their adaption to the modulating phaser weapon is to:

SEVEN: Triaxillate our shield geometry to absorb their phaser pulses.

Doesn't sound like they just changed frequencies to me. Also, if it's just frequency shifting that gives the Borg their invulnerability how come the cube in Q Who also managed to completely nullify photon torpedoes which don't work with frequencies?

Additional: Jem'hadar fighters are equivalent in manouverability to the Defiant, roughly, and the Defiant is shown in First Contact to be capable of evading borg weapons and pouring fire on it. Why is a Jem'hadar fighter, with its ability to punch through shields on the first shot, rated so poorly against the Borg when the Defiant is obviously highly effective?

The Defiant has an overpowered engine and is way more stable than a bugship, and still it is on the verge of destruction and has to be bailed out in First Contact after one direct hit, that doesn't scream "highly effective" to me. Bugships often die after only a few direct hits. DS9 swats them out of the sky with happy abandon and I don't see them performing any fancy evasive maneuvers there (or ever, they'd rather kamikaze).

That by the by, is the Borg Queen convinced that she can't defeat the Federation without Seven of Nine's help. IE, she gets Seven, states on screen that she needs her to help with sneaky things, she loses seven, and then the sneaky things never happen.

Easy alternative interpretation, she's playing mind games with Seven, she's been at it for the entire episode. The Borg could destroy the Federation at any point just by deploying more than one ship. They did so with Arturis' species after all when they proved to be a worthy target. Humanity is low on their priority order and yes, that's stated in the same episode. Nothing says the Borg never lie.

Using wide-scale dispersal of nanoprobes wasn't even an idea the borg came up with on their own; that was something Janeway showed them earlier! And they still need a human's help to implement it!

Or it's just the Borg Queen trying to break Seven by forcing her to commit atrocities against heir former allies.

No, one statement overrrides another only when they contradict. The borg started the war with 8472 by invading fluidic space. The borg assimilate, not invent. These do not contradict; "The borg assimilated the knowledge of how to access Fluidic space from an unknown third species" is a postulate that retains both statements as true, therefore it is the correct answer.

No one before the Borg could access Fluid Space. Evidence? The 8472/Undine would have reacted with an invasion to purge our space if it had happened before just by the fact that they consider our whole universe by its mere existence to be a threat of defilment to theirs, even if the Borg hadn't attacked them. Saying that maybe those former incursions into their space went unnoticed are rejected because Voyager, upon entering a completely random spot of Fluidic Space is almost immediately beset by its inhabitants. They obviously do notice when someone comes visiting.

If your reject this logic, I want direct canon evidence of the mysterious third party the Borg supposedly took their knowledge of Fluid Space from, please. I also wouldn't be so relying on Voyager crewmember's statements as facts. They fear, hate and despise the Borg so lambasting them over their supposed lack of innovation has to be taken with a grain of salt. Direct refutation of that statement can also be found in their research of the Omega particle.

[NecronLord]

I'll get the rest of your post later but...

the Borg their invulnerability how come the cube in Q Who also managed to completely nullify photon torpedoes which don't work with frequencies?

Holy Hell.

LURSA: That's it! Replay from time index nine two four. ...Magnify this section and enhance. ...Their shields are operating on a modulation of two five seven point four.
B'ETOR: Adjust our torpedo frequency to match two five seven point four!
(the Bird-of-Prey launches a torpedo attack on the Enterprise)

My arse.

[Metahive]

OK conceded, I thought they only used disruptors during that sequence.

But since torpedoes are matter/anti-matter missiles how does frequency figure into that anyway? Fucking BS ST writing...

[Eternal_Freedom]

I think that the "torpedo frequency"refersto wahtever system the torpedo's have to escape the launching ships shields, so adjusting that allows them to penetrate enemy shields. The Borg ship however, nullified the explosive force, which doesn't have a frequency.

Also, the Defiant wasn't near-crippled by just one hit, it was clearly heavily damaged when it first appeared weaving through other ships on an attack run. A good third of the dorsal hull was either burnt away or still on fire (somehow). If you want a better example, witness the Steamrunner and Sabre class ships destroyed by single torpedo hits while the fleet prepares to concentrate fire.

[NecronLord]

I can't reply to everything here, but I'll take two points, "Triaxillation" and "Omega."

SEVEN: Triaxillate our shield geometry to absorb their phaser pulses.

Doesn't sound like they just changed frequencies to me. Also, if it's just frequency shifting that gives the Borg their invulnerability how come the cube in Q Who also managed to completely nullify photon torpedoes which don't work with frequencies?

Hurrah. Evidence.

However, let's look at what Triaxillate means in Star Trek...

QUEEN: We're close. I can almost hear them. Bring us closer. There. Amplify. Disrupt the frequency. It's not working. They're using a triaxillating modulation. You're making this very difficult. If we can't terminate their link then we'll simply have to pay them a visit.

KEJAL: They're emitting the pulse on a triaxillating bandwidth.
IDEN: Reconfigure the tracking beam to the inverse frequency and fire.
[Bridge]
JANEWAY: B'Elanna, report.
[Engineering]
TORRES: They're creating a feedback surge. I don't understand how they could've isolated our frequency so quickly.
SEVEN: The main deflector is overloading.

KIM: We're eight light years away.
CHAKOTAY [OC]: How are you transmitting a signal that far?
EMH: We're using a triaxialating frequency on a covariant

[Janeway's apartment]

EMH [OC]: subspace band. It was B'Elanna's idea.

TUVOK: It appears to be an alien comm. signal. Triaxilating wavelengths.
CHAKOTAY: Origin.
TUVOK: Unknown.

Triaxilate is almost certainly a verb meaning 'apply a triaxilating frequency to' as every other occurrence of the word "Triaxilating" in Star Trek involves frequencies, or communications signals. What Seven is probably saying is:

"Apply a triaxillating frequency to our shield geometry to absorb their phaser pulses."

Does it still sound like it's got nothing to do with the frequencies?

What that scene does prove, though, is that a group of far smaller ships, armed with a shield penetrating weapon are potentially a major threat to borg cubes (and the diamond):

QUEEN: Tactical strength.
SEVEN: They've developed a modulating phaser pulse that can penetrate our shields.
QUEEN: How do you propose we adapt.
SEVEN: You are the Borg. You tell me.
QUEEN: Thirty nine of their vessels are converging on our position. They're firing weapons. Our shields are failing. We will be destroyed. How do you propose we adapt.
SEVEN: Triaxillate our shield geometry to absorb their phaser pulses.

Those ships were not especially big, certainly bad news for borg cubes if the phased polaron beam penetrates their shields.

Direct refutation of that statement can also be found in their research of the Omega particle.

JANEWAY: I'm curious... when did the Borg discover Omega?

SEVEN OF NINE: Two hundred, twenty-nine years ago.

JANEWAY: Assimilation?

SEVEN OF NINE: Yes of thirteen different species.

JANEWAY: Thirteen?

SEVEN OF NINE: It began with Species Two-Six-Two. They were primitive, but their oral history referred to a powerful substance which could "burn the sky." (beat) The Borg were intrigued... which led them to Species Two-Six-Three. They, too, were primitive.. and believed it was a drop of blood from their Creator.

JANEWAY: Fascinating...

SEVEN OF NINE: Irrelevant. We followed this trail of myth for many years... until finally assimilating a species with useful scientific data. We then created the molecule ourselves.

[...]


SEVEN OF NINE: On one occasion, we were able to create a single Omega molecule. We kept it stable for one trillionth of a nanosecond before it destabilized. (beat) We didn't have enough boronite ore left to synthesize more. But the knowledge we gained allowed us to refine our theories.

They found information on it, and immediately started building. This is not research, any more than my assembling a piece of Ikea flat pack furniture is - they found instructions, followed them. The only slight glimmer of research is that they "refined their theories" but there is no reason to think they did so in an ordered, scientific way, subject to reproductible criteria and the parsimony principle. They do worship the thing, after all.

If your reject this logic, I want direct canon evidence of the mysterious third party the Borg supposedly took their knowledge of Fluid Space from, please. I also wouldn't be so relying on Voyager crewmember's statements as facts.

You might not want to accept pieces of the canon, but canon it is.

JANEWAY: B'Elanna, it's clear from the Borg database that they know practically nothing about Species 8472.
TORRES: That's right. The Borg gain knowledge through assimilation. What they can't assimilate, they can't understand.
JANEWAY: But we don't assimilate, we investigate, and in this case, that's given us an edge. We've discovered something they need.

1. The Borg gain knowledge through assimilation.
2. Knowledge not gained by assimilation, they cannot understand.
3. The borg have knowledge of how to access fluidic space.

Therefore that knowledge was gained by assimilation.

Voyager, upon entering a completely random spot of Fluidic Space is almost immediately beset by its inhabitants.

You mean to say "Voyager, upon entering Fluidic Space through the "North West Passage" where 8472 vessels are on their way to engage the borg, under the guidance of a borg drone on a deliberate course to engage the 8472 in battle." Not a 'completely random spot of Fluidic Space,' right?

[NecronLord]

As for the rest - you can speculate what you want about the Queen's motives (I can speculate that the collective was taken over by the Dominion long ago and the Founders programmed them to serve them by bringing order to the Delta Quadrant, nothing in the canon contradicts this after all!) but the canon statements are the only thing relevant to debate from.

Yes, you can speculate all you like that the pictogram virus would fail. There is no canon evidence it would not, indeed:

NECHAYEV: There will be fifteen starships in this sector by the day after tomorrow. The Gorkon will be my flagship. You'll take command of task force three, consisting of the Enterprise, the Crazy Horse and the Agamemnon.
PICARD: Understood.
NECHAYEV: Captain, I've read the report that you submitted to Admiral Brooks last year regarding the Borg you called Hugh, and I've been trying to figure out why you let him go.
PICARD: I thought that I had made that clear.
NECHAYEV: As I understand, it you found a single Borg at a crash site, brought it aboard the Enterprise, studied it, analysed it, and eventually found a way to send it back to the Borg with a programme that would have destroyed the entire collective once and for all. But instead, you nursed the Borg back to health, treated it like a guest, gave it a name, and then sent it home. Why?
PICARD: When Hugh was separated from the Borg collective he began to grow and to evolve into something other than an automaton. He became a person. When that happened, I felt I had no choice but to respect his rights as an individual.
NECHAYEV: Of course you had a choice. You could've taken the opportunity to rid the Federation of a mortal enemy, one that has killed tens of thousands of innocent people, and which may kill even more.
PICARD: No one is more aware of the danger than I am. But I am also bound by my oath and my conscience to uphold certain principles. And I will not sacrifice them in order to
NECHAYEV: Your priority is to safeguard the lives of Federation citizens, not to wrestle with your conscience. Now I want to make it clear that if you have a similar opportunity in the future, an opportunity to destroy the Borg, you are under orders to take advantage of it. Is that understood?
PICARD: Yes, sir.

Just for a bit more; Nechayev also thinks it would have 'destroyed the entire collective once and for all.'

Why they didn't do it? Perhaps Picard destroyed the research? Perhaps Nechayev's opinion is a minority in starfleet? The fact is they didn't. The fact, equally, is that it would have destroyed the borg collective.

Do you still hold - does anyone - the opinion that:

The Borg can't lose.

We've seen them lose several times. Including a means to wipe out the entire collective.

I think it's sufficient to say the borg can lose, which isn't to say that they will. Does anyone still disagree that the borg losing is a possibility?

[Lord MJ]

Regarding the Pictogram virus. Neither the Enterprise crew nor Starfleet knew anything about the extent of the collective. In fact their whole exposure to the Borg was just 1 or 2 cubes. They had no idea where in the Delta Quadrant the Borg resided, how the different cubes connected to each other, the existence of the Borg Queen, Borg planets, how many ships and planets existed, etc, etc.

Of all the DQ races that thought they had the magic bullet to destroy the Borg, all of them only succeeded at disabling single ships, and the damage failed to spread to the rest of the collective. Which indicates that either infections or corruption does not spread from ship to ship, or the Borg have ways of routing out and containing corruption of that type.

[NecronLord]

Regarding the Pictogram virus. Neither the Enterprise crew nor Starfleet knew anything about the extent of the collective. In fact their whole exposure to the Borg was just 1 or 2 cubes. They had no idea where in the Delta Quadrant the Borg resided, how the different cubes connected to each other, the existence of the Borg Queen, Borg planets, how many ships and planets existed, etc, etc.

Excepting of course that the had Guinan and other El Aurians to debrief on the matter. Guinan knows the fucking age of the collective.

Annika Hansen's parents were sent in a UFP flagged research ship, with Starfleet markings, and were aware of tactical drones and the queen as of

MAGNUS [OC]: Field notes, U.S.S. Raven, Stardate 32611.4: It's about time. The Federation Council on Exobiology has given us final approval. Starfleet's still concerned about security issues but they've agreed not to stand in our way. We've said our goodbyes, and we're ready to start chasing our theories about the Borg.

For comparison's sake:

PICARD: To Captain Jean-Luc Picard, stardate 41148
(three people jeering from the upper level)
PICARD: You are hereby requested and required to take command
(four of them behind him)
PICARD: to take command of the USS Enterprise as of this date. Signed Rear Admiral Norah Satie, Starfleet Command.

Captain's log, stardate 41153.7. Our destination is planet Deneb Four, beyond which lies the great unexplored mass of the galaxy. My orders are to examine Farpoint, a starbase built there by the inhabitants of that world. Meanwhile, I am becoming better acquainted with my new command, this Galaxy Class USS Enterprise. I am still somewhat in awe of its size and complexity. As for my crew, we are short in several key positions, most notably a first officer, but I am informed that a highly experienced man, one Commander William Riker, will be waiting to join our ship at our Deneb Four destination.

While obviously the Enterprise-D crew are broadly ignorant of the borg, Starfleet Command (and therefore Starfleet's admirals!) are evidently not. The Hansens could have found out about the Queen after they boarded the cube of course, but the point remains that the Federation had some knowledge of borg long before Q-Who, though obviously not enough to identify them as the culprits in "The Neutral Zone" (But then, we never see them scoop up cities elsewhere so that might be a rare behaviour).

Of all the DQ races that thought they had the magic bullet to destroy the Borg, all of them only succeeded at disabling single ships, and the damage failed to spread to the rest of the collective. Which indicates that either infections or corruption does not spread from ship to ship, or the Borg have ways of routing out and containing corruption of that type.

None of those (I am, again, only aware of one example, that of the Brenali, who used a biological weapon, which worked exactly as intended) were a computer-based approach intended to exploit the collective nature of the borg. This was.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I do seem to recall that the Hansen's were chasing vague theories that everyone else thought were myths. I don't recall anyone taking them seriously. They gave them a glorified runabout and didn't even give them a crew, I suspect it was "fine, take the ship, sod off and stop writing us letters."

[NecronLord]

They were given mission approval by the Federation Council on Exobiology and a ship by starfleet. This implies they're part of the scientific establishment. Again, in Q Who, when Picard wants a borg expert, he merely has to ask around on the ship! Are we to think that of all the El Aurian refugees in Generations...

CRUSHER: He's an El-Aurian, ...over three hundred years old. He lost his entire family when the Borg destroyed his world. Soran escaped with a handful of other refugees aboard a ship called the Lakul. That ship was later destroyed by some kind of energy ribbon, but Soran and forty-six others were rescued by the Enterprise-B.

They went directly on the same ship from the borg invasion to the Federation. Would no one bother to ask them what they were running from? Of course the Federation knew about the Borg, even if all starfleet officers didn't know about them.