What did Spock Tell the Federation?

[FaxModem1]

And I'm agreeing with Gandalf, Spock's silence is giving the Federation a disadvantage. He could provide them with 24th century technology, briefings on what came in his future, since there are enough similarities between the two universes for his information to be valid. Otherwise, we have someone who is willingly let the universe go much worse than by his inaction, with hundreds, if not thousands or millions paying for it because the NuTrek universe is already at a disadvantage when dealing with the Klingons, Romulans, Doomsday Machine, etc, because they lost a founding member of the Federation and a fleet full of cadets.

Khan doesn't even look like the old Khan, well neither does Spock, Uhura, Kirk, or Scotty compared to the old universe, but they're still the same people with seemingly the same history.

[Ahriman238]

Saying 'polluted timeline' makes you look pretty stupid. This Kirk and this Spock have THEIR OWN destinies; they're not 'alternate shatner' and 'alternate nimoy'. Maybe the movie isn't stupid - maybe it's you.

Thinking about it like some kind of timecop is wrong and hilariously limited. It's good to me that they threw OCD fans a bone with people literally saying 'alternative universe' on screen in clunky dialog just for them, just to prevent hysterical heart attacks.

If the writers and director are going to treat it that way, why shouldn't viewers?

[Lilgreenman]

Calm down, Stark. I don't want Nimoy in any more reboot movies unless they're going to make him useful (*envelope to my forehead* though I bet they will for the 2016 anniversary one), but I don't think wanting someone to stop performing a role is a good reason to wish death upon them. Kirk didn't kill the Gorn; would you kill a harmless old man?

OT, it's Schrodinger's cat: Spock simultanenously told the Federation everything and nothing until it becomes important to the plot, and so there's not much point discussing it.

[Alyrium Denryle]

And I'm agreeing with Gandalf, Spock's silence is giving the Federation a disadvantage. He could provide them with 24th century technology

Give 19th century humanity nukes. See how far that takes you. One thing we learned from the cold war. If the speed of technological development outpaces cultural development, bad shit happens. How many people die if someone like Admiral Marcus has access to 24th century tech?

briefings on what came in his future, since there are enough similarities between the two universes for his information to be valid.

Only to introduce whole net sets of variables and the potential for bad consequences. Have you ever read sophocles by chance?

Otherwise, we have someone who is willingly let the universe go much worse than by his inaction, with hundreds, if not thousands or millions paying for it because the NuTrek universe is already at a disadvantage when dealing with the Klingons, Romulans, Doomsday Machine, etc, because they lost a founding member of the Federation and a fleet full of cadets.

Thus the future will be different, and thus the information he gives is invalid, or liable to lead to bad consequences. The destruction of Vulcan was the Federation 9/11, they made this pretty fucking explicit, and factions within the Federation did some fucked up shit as a result. Yes. Tell them everything. Tell them about the Borg and the Dominion. See how they react to THOSE threats. Great idea.

It is one thing to say to you from the past "Hey man, Khan is a crazy asshole." it is another to sit down and brief starfleet about their fucking future that-is-not-their-future. That is how you create causality paradoxes and Sophoclean tragedies. The world has diverged. Do you want to pollute their decision making processes? That is a Bad Idea, and it is the reason the Temporal Prime Directive exists in the first place.

[mr friendly guy]

I doubt the Federation would be able to do anything about the Borg since they are still too far too reach. They might be able to better prepare against future Borg incursions by making better weapons, and having protocols to deal with any Borg sightings etc.

[FaxModem1]

Give 19th century humanity nukes. See how far that takes you. One thing we learned from the cold war. If the speed of technological development outpaces cultural development, bad shit happens. How many people die if someone like Admiral Marcus has access to 24th century tech?

Genie's already out of the bottle, with Nero's 24th century borg-modified mining vessel that tore through the fleets like tissue paper. Advances in medicine, physics, and other fields would save countless lives, or are you arguing that they are fated to die because the Federation isn't ready for a cure for a future disease?

Only to introduce whole net sets of variables and the potential for bad consequences. Have you ever read sophocles by chance?

No, unfamiliar with his work, sorry. But, wouldn't it be nice for the Federation to know, that say, a whale probe is coming, or there's going to be an outbreak of some virus on such and such planet? Or are you preferring that everyone stay ignorant so that they advance slowly as they develop culturally?

Thus the future will be different, and thus the information he gives is invalid, or liable to lead to bad consequences. The destruction of Vulcan was the Federation 9/11, they made this pretty fucking explicit, and factions within the Federation did some fucked up shit as a result. Yes. Tell them everything. Tell them about the Borg and the Dominion. See how they react to THOSE threats. Great idea.

It is one thing to say to you from the past "Hey man, Khan is a crazy asshole." it is another to sit down and brief starfleet about their fucking future that-is-not-their-future. That is how you create causality paradoxes and Sophoclean tragedies. The world has diverged. Do you want to pollute their decision making processes? That is a Bad Idea, and it is the reason the Temporal Prime Directive exists in the first place.

So, should all the people, ships and space stations destroyed by V'ger be allowed to die since Spock warning Starfleet to brush up on the Voyager probes radio codes would give them foreknowledge? Something is better than nothing, since Spock apparently said NOTHING to Starfleet. Admiral Marcus found the Botany Bay on his own because he lacked future knowledge, and gave a madman power. If 23rd century Section 31 had Spock's knowledge, they might do a lot worse, I'll concede that. But without Vulcan, without an entire fleet, and an entire class of cadets, the Federation will not be in the same shape it was in the original timeline. The Treaty of Organia might not happen because the Klingons are able to meet the Federation before they can conjure up a response, ending with Andor, Earth, Tellar, etc. invaded or destroyed. Starfleet might not have enough ships to patrol space so that the Doomsday machine ends up eating colony worlds while they're putting all their defenses on the Klingon border.

The point is, the Federation is already at a losing point with the Klingon Empire and Romulan Star Empire due to the events of the 2009 film, and that means they probably wouldn't be able to help the dozens of ships, planets, and other adventures we saw the Enterprise do in TOS. All those worlds could be slighted over to the Klingon Empire's control, as the Enterprise might not be there to save them or to intervene. if the Federation were to acquire Spock's foreknowledge, the balance could at least be reattained, if not shifted to the Federation's side.

Yes, the potential for the Federation to abuse future knowledge is very possible, but without it, the Federation is already in a losing position and will have to deal with the world being modified anyway. Spock's lack of interference in an already changed timeline in hopes of preserving the timeline are foolhardy, as he isn't setting right what went wrong, he's letting what went wrong continue on course.

[Gaidin]

I might be rusty on Star Trek 2009, but didn't the Klingons lose a pretty damn sizable fleet as well?

[Havok]

Yup.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Genie's already out of the bottle, with Nero's 24th century borg-modified mining vessel that tore through the fleets like tissue paper. Advances in medicine, physics, and other fields would save countless lives, or are you arguing that they are fated to die because the Federation isn't ready for a cure for a future disease?

What happens when the Romulans or Klingons find out that Starfleet has access to weapons and technology hundreds of years more advanced than theirs? Pre-emptive strike, War. Forget the Neutral Zone Treaty staying in place for another hundred years. What happens when Section 31 has access to transphasic torpedoes and TR 116s? They will do what they do, which is never pleasant. You dont maintain a peace by totally fucking the balance of power.

No, unfamiliar with his work, sorry. But, wouldn't it be nice for the Federation to know, that say, a whale probe is coming, or there's going to be an outbreak of some virus on such and such planet? Or are you preferring that everyone stay ignorant so that they advance slowly as they develop culturally?

First of all: In Sophoclean tragedy, the tragedy comes with the consequences of knowing your own fate. A greek playwrite understood the causality paradox better than you, apparently. A king finds out that his son will kill him, so he leaves his infant son exposed on a rock, this eventually leads to his own death, at the hands of his son after said son was raised by some kindly shepherds.

A viral outbreak is a stochastic event. Change the initial conditions--which we have--and the virus may not show up at all. The whale probe might show up, but it can be dealt with in the same way it was before, or it might not show up. The Borg? For all we know, Q wont ever get involved in Picards life, or Picards career path may be different and the events of Q Who might never occur.

And yes. If you suddenly give a society a HUGE leap in technology, they wont handle it properly. We know this from our own history--you know, where we spent 50 years nearly destroying ourselves.

[FaxModem1]

What happens when the Romulans or Klingons find out that Starfleet has access to weapons and technology hundreds of years more advanced than theirs? Pre-emptive strike, War. Forget the Neutral Zone Treaty staying in place for another hundred years. What happens when Section 31 has access to transphasic torpedoes and TR 116s? They will do what they do, which is never pleasant. You dont maintain a peace by totally fucking the balance of power.

In that case, since Starfleet had the foresight to upgrade their technology by a century, the Klingons and Romulans lose handily, and the Federation survives. Meaning that the Federation stops being in a cold war and becomes the dominant superpower in the quadrant.

First of all: In Sophoclean tragedy, the tragedy comes with the consequences of knowing your own fate. A greek playwrite understood the causality paradox better than you, apparently. A king finds out that his son will kill him, so he leaves his infant son exposed on a rock, this eventually leads to his own death, at the hands of his son after said son was raised by some kindly shepherds.

A viral outbreak is a stochastic event. Change the initial conditions--which we have--and the virus may not show up at all. The whale probe might show up, but it can be dealt with in the same way it was before, or it might not show up. The Borg? For all we know, Q wont ever get involved in Picards life, or Picards career path may be different and the events of Q Who might never occur.

And yes. If you suddenly give a society a HUGE leap in technology, they wont handle it properly. We know this from our own history--you know, where we spent 50 years nearly destroying ourselves.

This is a bit different from a predestination paradox. As no one went back in time and shot the King's army, blew up his castle, and killed his wife. He isn't in the same scenario as he was before hand, he's dealing with entirely new circumstances at a disadvantage and can either do nothing about it, which is what you're saying he should do, or try and learn from this and make his kingdom better.

So what about the Doomsday Machine? The Space Amoeba? V'ger? All the casualties those things inflict should just be left to pass because "KNOWING THE FUTURE IS BAD".

Are you referring to the Cold War, and the threat of world war three? Or is it the development of the aeroplane, inflicting on us a century of it being possible for there to be warfare in the skies? How about the discovery of penicillin, and leading us to germ warfare and immunities to antibiotics? Heck, how about the invention of writing, which enabled us to lose our ability to keep vast amounts of information in our heads? I say all these things, because ANYTIME a new technology comes out, there will be negative consequences, that doesn't mean that we should still be a hunter-gatherer society who die out because we never discovered fire or agriculture.

You might argue that it's about the lack of cultural development that comes with technology, such as the proliferation of nuclear weapons worldwide. Problem is, like I said above, the genie is already out of the bottle, when Nero and his ship the Nerada blasted its way across the alpha quadrant, already exposing everyone to the century ahead technology. They can either use it, and be accused of using century ahead technology by the Klingons and Romulans, or they can not use it, and be accused anyway of using century ahead technology by the Klingons and Romulans. The former might lead to war that the Federation could win, but the latter will lead to war that the Federation will lose.

[Kuja]

First of all: In Sophoclean tragedy, the tragedy comes with the consequences of knowing your own fate. A greek playwrite understood the causality paradox better than you, apparently. A king finds out that his son will kill him, so he leaves his infant son exposed on a rock, this eventually leads to his own death, at the hands of his son after said son was raised by some kindly shepherds.

But Star Trek, with few exceptions, isn't Greek tragedy, and there's no paradox at play here. The future can, will, and has been altered- you can't invoke the "by trying to avoid prophecy you only fulfill it" rule.

As I said a page back, even if you give the writers a mulligan and go with the idea that the destruction of the Kelvin is the breaking point (and everything else, like white Khan, different Klingons, and different aesthetics of technology are just film cosmetics) the timeline has been irrevocably butchered.

-the Klingons lost a fleet of ships at the Narada's hands. What if General Chang, or Worf's great-grandfather, or Kor (the guy who in oldTrek occupied Organia) was aboard one of them?

-Vulcan got blown up. What if Saavik or Valeris' family went up with it? What about all the Vulcans fro mthe old timeline that will now never be born or go on to do stuff that they would have done had their planet not blown up?

-Kirk never lived off planet under the brutal reign of Kodos the Executioner, he grew up without a dad. What does that change about him and about the lives of people around him?

-Pike had, as far as we can tell, a totally different career from his original incarnation. What does that change?

-The Federation went off on a star-searching binge after Nero's death, provoking innumerable possible changes. Bones says in STID that he's delivered Gorn babies, unlike in oldTrek where first contact was the Gorn bombing that outpost in TOS. What else has that search changed?

-Khan killed off a whole bunch of people. What kind of change does that cause?

Now, I'm just pulling these theoretical questions out of my ass, but amidst all this, Spock using the "I cannot alter your destinies" excuse makes him sound like he's doing a 'see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil' routine. Destiny has been altered for untold billions. Is Spock really going to take the chance that, say, the Enterprise happens to be out of communication when a big blue cloud shows up on Earth's doorstep? If V'ger slam-dunks Terra Firma in a fit of pique and kills billions is Spock really just going to shrug and say "well, uh, I couldn't say anything?" If the whale probe turns off the world's atmosphere and catches the Enterprise crew at stardock, helpless to figure out the time-travel solution, is Spock just going to say "oh well?"

This is reminding me of Chuck's rant about Janeway's insane faith in the Prime Directive. You could save that guy from that mugger....but he might grow up to be Hitler's dad, better not intervene in case something worse happens! Just like that one Voyager episode, any intervention has to result in a better solution than the entire planet burning up! There's been multiple occasions in Star Trek history that the Federation scraped by on the skin of its teeth, Spock really has no sensible excuse for sitting back and saying "welp, hope that all works out for you guys, hyuk!"

[aieeegrunt]

The real problem here was including Old Spock at all. They should have given him a heroic death in the 2009 movie and spare us all this BS.

[Simon_Jester]

The whole deal with Spock refusing to dump info to the nuTrek crew in order to "preserve their destinies" or whatever such nonsense is goddamned stupid.

I think Spock's perspective on this is that the altered timeline means that the Federation will face new, largely unforeseen and unknown threats. Many of these threats cannot be predicted in advance, and trying to use knowledge from the original timeline to deal with those new threats would be at best useless and at worst actively misleading. For example, assuming the Klingons will relax and become friendly after 2300, so that Worf can end up kicking around in TNG, may prove mistaken, if the various events that make that chilling out possible do not occur on schedule.

For example, Into Darkness has Khan pop up in a different time and place, doing different things, because he was found earlier and by different people. As a result, he arguably does even more damage and ends up closer to being in a position to wreck the Federation than he did in the original timeline. In the original, he gets Genesis and becomes a threat to the Federation largely by chance; this time, he is deliberately invited into the top levels of the Federation's councils and given a more or less free shot at the immense power of the Dark Scary Angular Battleship.

If old-Spock DID tell Admiral Marcus about Khan's whereabouts, I'm sure he's regretting that decision now, and will continue to do so as long as he lives.


If you ask me, what old-Spock is trying to preserve is not the exact sequence of events that occurred in his personal history. He's trying to preserve the growth of his younger self, and of Kirk and the crew of the Enterprise, into the powerful trouble-shooting team that can solve not only the predictable problems he knows will occur, but also the strange and unexpected crises he can't possibly warn them about because they never happened to him.

It seems very credible that Spock WOULD tell the Federation about some or all of the upcoming threats, ones that might otherwise murder entire planets. But that information might well be disclosed only to senior personnel under controlled conditions. Or he might even give it to some body other than Starfleet, such as the leaders of the Vulcan survivors.* The idea being that needless catastrophes can be avoided, without issuing a tell-all guide to people who are still junior in the Starfleet hierarchy like... well, Kirk and Spock.

Seriously, would YOU give nuTrek Kirk a book full of information about future events? Even after the events of the second movie, I still wouldn't trust him to be responsible with information like that.

*[Which is arguably a good strategy, come to think of it. The Vulcan survivors are few in number and largely powerless in the new-timeline Federation. If Spock wishes to preserve the future of the Vulcans as a distinct culture, and not just a powerless band of refugees, he might be wise to give them a powerful bargaining chip like "we know stuff about the future and you don't."]

But it would make sense for him to say things like "There's a ship floating around out there that's full of genetically enhanced supermen. Watch out for that." or "V'Ger/Whale Probe/other are coming, watch out for those too."

It would explain why Marcus went to get Khan.

As others noted, if Spock DID tell Starfleet about the Botany Bay being out there, and he might have... he is probably regretting it now, and that might actually make him less likely to disclose more information to them later.

I kind of hope he did warn them about V'Ger, the Whale Probe, and other such threats, though.

Why does it make sense? What's his motive? Playing god? An innate need to be cryptic? An old man's need for attention and validation?

Spock is kind of a humanitarian, so I would expect him to warn people about random disasters that could kill billions, especially since he has just experienced such a disaster himself with the loss of his homeworld.

And I'm agreeing with Gandalf, Spock's silence is giving the Federation a disadvantage. He could provide them with 24th century technology

Give 19th century humanity nukes. See how far that takes you. One thing we learned from the cold war. If the speed of technological development outpaces cultural development, bad shit happens. How many people die if someone like Admiral Marcus has access to 24th century tech?

For all we know, he did have it- that helps to explain why the ship is so overwhelmingly fast and powerful compared to Enterprise, along with its larger size.

Now, I do think it would be sensible for Spock to warn the Federation about a few imminent threats, like V'Ger and the whale probe from the movies, or some of the planet-eating monsters and species-exterminating aliens from TOS. Alerting them to these near-term threats could save a lot of lives in the short term, and can be done without giving the Federation any tools much more powerful than what they already have.

But spilling the beans about long term strategic threats is unwise, though it might still be prudent for Spock to write a letter saying "here is all I know about the Borg," and hand it to a VERY trusted Vulcan friend, saying "do not open this letter unless we are invaded by zombie cyborgs from the Delta Quadrant."

What happens when the Romulans or Klingons find out that Starfleet has access to weapons and technology hundreds of years more advanced than theirs? Pre-emptive strike, War. Forget the Neutral Zone Treaty staying in place for another hundred years. What happens when Section 31 has access to transphasic torpedoes and TR 116s? They will do what they do, which is never pleasant. You dont maintain a peace by totally fucking the balance of power.

Was Section 31 as horrible in the 2200s as in the 2300s? I never got the impression in TOS that there were Evil Spies lurking in the background. Maybe Section 31 started out as a relatively innocuous organization for intelligence gathering and R&D (any sane nation has them), and only later became the black-ops assholes we know and loathe from DS9.

No, unfamiliar with his work, sorry. But, wouldn't it be nice for the Federation to know, that say, a whale probe is coming, or there's going to be an outbreak of some virus on such and such planet? Or are you preferring that everyone stay ignorant so that they advance slowly as they develop culturally?

First of all: In Sophoclean tragedy, the tragedy comes with the consequences of knowing your own fate. A greek playwrite understood the causality paradox better than you, apparently. A king finds out that his son will kill him, so he leaves his infant son exposed on a rock, this eventually leads to his own death, at the hands of his son after said son was raised by some kindly shepherds.

A viral outbreak is a stochastic event. Change the initial conditions--which we have--and the virus may not show up at all. The whale probe might show up, but it can be dealt with in the same way it was before, or it might not show up.

Good.

The whale probe might show up, and having literally no idea how to handle it is worse than having some idea how to handle it. The probe would have killed all life on Earth if it hadn't been stopped, and it would have been one hell of a lot easier to stop if someone had known even a month in advance that it was coming and dealt with it professionally. They could have slingshotted around the sun more safely, in a better-built ship, gone back to a time when there was less risk of accidentally screwing up their own past (say, 5000 BC), and picked up whole colonies of whales instead of just two.

The space viruses and stuff- in many cases they WERE stopped historically, the only difference is that this way fewer planets are destroyed or depopulated. At the moment, the Federation is down one important planet compared to the original timeline, so having them not lose a few that they would otherwise lose is arguably a necessary improvement in order to restore something like the original balance of power.

The Borg? For all we know, Q wont ever get involved in Picards life, or Picards career path may be different and the events of Q Who might never occur.

But Q did not create the Borg, so the Borg still exist as a threat. In this case, they are a long term threat- as I suggested, maybe Spock should somehow seal off that information so it cannot be used by the Federation until such time as they need that knowledge.

[Kuja]

All I really wanted to see of oldSpock in the next Star Trek movie was something along these lines in the first thirty minutes of the film:

*Kirk and Spock walking down a hallway in the Enterprise*
QUINTO: Captain, before I went down to the planet's surface I understand there was a transmission from Earth regarding an approaching blue cloud of unusual size.
PINE: Oh, yeah, that. Don't worry about it, Starfleet updated us on things. They said you took care of it.
*Kirk grins and pats Spock on the shoulder before stepping off camera, leaving a bewildered Spock behind*

There. That's really all we need to hear. The audience can fill in the rest- "oh, haha, right, Spock is taking care of all the old movie stuff 'cause he knows about it already." We don't need to know mechanics or how much or little he told Starfleet. That tidbit is all that's necessary to inform the audience the movies aren't going to be retreading old ground and that oldSpock can be kept nicely off-camera.

EDIT:

If old-Spock DID tell Admiral Marcus about Khan's whereabouts, I'm sure he's regretting that decision now, and will continue to do so as long as he lives.

Actually, as I recall the movie's explanation for the whole fine-tooth search of space that uncovered Khan was provoked because Spock wouldn't tell the the Federation anything.