Operation Return

[Daefaron]

Having watched the space battle, or at least part of it... I really have to question why Starfleet acted that way. I really have two gripes about the battle.

Gripe A: It took them 2 hours + to get the Defiant through an enemy fleet... only twice as big as theirs. This is with orders of "Don't stop for anything keep pushing forward." Combine with the fact that the Klingons broke a hole in the lines apparently, yet the Defiant was the only ship that got through despite the screen showing a number of Fed ships near that location?

Gripe B: They show at least 3 galaxy class ships, and one steamrunner, turning and opening fire... Keyword TURNING, the ships were actuall going to face the same direction as the Dominion fleet toward Federation space. Why the heck did they do that?

[Lord Revan]

well you kind of answered your question already, we saw (IIRC) only a part of the battle so there might be enemy actions we've missed that prompt certain tactical decisions.

as for why the Defiant was the only to get past, you got to remember that unlike most federation ships the Defiant is fairly small, just what the exact size is, is up for debate, but still it's signifigantly smaller then most Starfleet ships. Also the Defiant was designed and built as a warship to fight the borg, where as most federation ships are war/exploration ship hybrids designed against Klingons or similar threats, thus it's not unreasonble to assume the Defiant can take more punishment then other similar sized starfleet ships.

[Purple]

What gripes me is why they did not just go around. I mean seriously, how big can that blockade be that you can't go say 1-2ly to the side to avoid them. A far better tactic would have been to just send the main fleet as they did to hold the enemy down and than a small strike force to go around completely. Preferably a force including the Defiant and some Klingon ships all cloaked.

[Daefaron]

I can understand the Dominion fleet intercepting them at warp... but it seems to be described as the fleet takes up this stretch of space... then it's suddenly a compacted box that with 2 hours the Federation hadn't pushed through... That's a mighty deep line for a fleet only... twice as big as the Starfleet force.

[Lord Revan]

I can understand the Dominion fleet intercepting them at warp... but it seems to be described as the fleet takes up this stretch of space... then it's suddenly a compacted box that with 2 hours the Federation hadn't pushed through... That's a mighty deep line for a fleet only... twice as big as the Starfleet force.

well IIRC the Federation fleet consisted of mainly Exelciors, Mirandas or Galaxies all above the 200 metre mark IIRC, also Mirandas and Galaxies have very large on their top and bottom profile relative to their size due being quite wide compored to their length. It wouldn't suprice me if the federation captains were fighting as conservativly as possible given the situation.

It's easy to say "why didn't they do this or that" when you got incomplete picture of the battle and you're looking at things from hindsight. something people tend to forget that during battle you don't have excess amount of time to deside on battle tactics so sometimes you end up with tactics that seem too conservative or too reckless in hindsight but seemed like a good idea at the time.

Also you familiar with the term "fog of war", it refers to the fact that pretty much everytime in combat the commanders must make tactical decisions based on incomplete intelligence regarding the position, intents and actions of the enemy (yeah it's not just on RTS term).

to sum up you got a fleet based on mainly fairly large ships and you got limited time and intelligence, so it's no suprice that the federation commanders would prefer to preserve their assets then go all out for a breach that if failed would cost them the battle.

[Ted C]

What gripes me is why they did not just go around. I mean seriously, how big can that blockade be that you can't go say 1-2ly to the side to avoid them. A far better tactic would have been to just send the main fleet as they did to hold the enemy down and than a small strike force to go around completely. Preferably a force including the Defiant and some Klingon ships all cloaked.

This involves the second Defiant, doesn't it? The one rechristened after the original was destroyed? I don't think the replacement has a cloaking device.

Which doesn't mean the Federation fleet shouldn't engage the Dominion fleet to keep them occupied while a cloaked fleet of Klingon and/or Romulan allies avoids the enemy entirely on the way to the station.

I suppose the question is how many cloaked ships were actually available. I'm not very familiar with the episode, but probably enough to do something useful.

[Crazedwraith]

Operation Return was the big battle early season 6, involving the first defiant in favour the brave/sacrifice of angels.

The only part that really bothered me was the klingons flying in the battle to resuce the feddie fleet rather than just heading straight to the goal. Martok could have won his bet with Sisko that way... But I guess... klingons love battle? Not hugely out of character for them.

[Alyeska]

The best way to think of Trek fleet combat is probably compare it to Napoleonic warfare. The defender can detect the approaching fleet from a distance far enough to give them time to intercept. And with the ranges and speed, well your combat is going to be massed groups on either side clashing. As to why they fight there instead of using warp tactically, no effing idea. We have seen a BoP use technobabble to pull Jem'Hadar attack ships out of warp. And we have seen Dominion ships go to warp to flee battle.

But the FTL brainbug is a common one. I've seen it in just about every single favorite scifi series I have watched or played. "The battle must happen" is the most apt statement I can think of.

[Lord Garth, FOI]

The best way to think of Trek fleet combat is probably compare it to Napoleonic warfare. The defender can detect the approaching fleet from a distance far enough to give them time to intercept. And with the ranges and speed, well your combat is going to be massed groups on either side clashing. As to why they fight there instead of using warp tactically, no effing idea. We have seen a BoP use technobabble to pull Jem'Hadar attack ships out of warp. And we have seen Dominion ships go to warp to flee battle.

But the FTL brainbug is a common one. I've seen it in just about every single favorite scifi series I have watched or played. "The battle must happen" is the most apt statement I can think of.

This

[Eternal_Freedom]

The only other concept I can come up with is that if you flew past them to the target, the enemy woudl turn and persue, and you'd be trapped between a superior enemy fleet and fixed defences, OR, the enemy fleet woudl continue on to hit one of your bases while it's undefended, neither of which is a pleasent alternative.

If that's the case, forcing an engagement in open space may be preferable. No gravity wells to limit maneuvres, no defensive platforms, zip, just ship to ship. It also allows the attackers to withdraw and regroup easily, unlike being trapped between a fleet and a fortified base.

[Lord Revan]

Not mention that bypassing a fleet would give the enemy an opportunity to attack you from the rear which is a very bad thing and nothing in Star Trek it's any different there then in real life.

[Baffalo]

FTL battle is, as far as I can see it, really really stupid given the limitations on the technology available. And here's why.

Yes, they can see the enemy coming en masse, since that many ships can't hope to conceal their warp signatures effectively enough that their long-range sensors can't pick up a giant mass of signals saying "Something's coming your way!", especially since they'd know from IFF and comms that whatever is coming, it's not one of yours. So you have a nice, general idea that something unpleasant is coming your way.

Now consider a scene from Star Trek VI, in which the Klingon listening post, sitting stationary and monitoring local subspace, picked up the Enterprise and had to actually hail them to get an identification. Sure, this was to make it convenient that the Enterprise was able to slip past border security, but it also means that it's common for even long-range sensors to be unable to pick up exactly what's out there doing what. In the heat of battle, with both sides maneuvering and stray radiation and matter/anti-matter reactions going on everywhere, the picture from far away goes from "I wonder what that is" to "Oh sweet Jesus what the hell?!"

That's not to say we haven't seen it used before. IIRC, I think there was once or twice we saw a ship emerge from warp firing its weapons. In that case, I think it was the cavalry arriving to save the day for another ship, in which case what might have happened was the ship needing assistance was broadcasting to the incoming vessel their position and firing data, which means that while the incoming ship may not have a clear picture with their own sensors, they have data available to start firing with. For large scale battles, there's just too much going on to really get a good picture of what's going on.

Also, a little brain bug I just thought of says that because of how warp might work (compressing space ahead and behind the ship), it might skew data passing through the compressed space making targeting difficult until the warp field fully disperses enough to see through it. I don't know, just a possibility.

[Prometheus Unbound]

What gripes me is why they did not just go around. I mean seriously, how big can that blockade be that you can't go say 1-2ly to the side to avoid them. A far better tactic would have been to just send the main fleet as they did to hold the enemy down and than a small strike force to go around completely. Preferably a force including the Defiant and some Klingon ships all cloaked.

Problem is, DS9 itself could take down a fleet of 100 or so ships - when the Dominion attacked the station, they had "over 50 ships lost" - The Federation had no more ships to spare, having only 600 or so. In order to *guarantee* they could take the station they'd need at least 100 ships or so, and that's assuming the Dominion didn't have any forces on standby (which they did - a few dozen ships I think, according to visuals). If they sent any less ships than the 600 to go against the 1200, they'd all be destroyed.

Bad tactic.

[Baffalo]

First off, good job on whipping out the Necronomicon.

Second, all you've done is say, bad tactic. How? Elaborate. WHY is this a bad tactic? What magical strategem would you have used? I'm asking because I can walk up to someone and say, "You're wrong" and then walk away. That does nothing. Please elaborate further.

Third, I haven't seen the episode recently, but Starfleet was in a rush. The entire minefield was about to go down. There's no more time, pedal to the metal, haul ass, get your ass over there. According to MA, there were 1200+ Dom ships, with most of them more than able to kick the ass of any ship Starfleet or the Klingons or the Romulans sent against them one on one. It was pure desperation, through and through. Bad tactics usually accompany desperate acts.

[Prometheus Unbound]

First off, good job on whipping out the Necronomicon.

Meh, it's not like this particular sub-forum is so busy it can't handle it.

Second, all you've done is say, bad tactic. How? Elaborate. WHY is this a bad tactic?

I did elaborate. I explained it clearly.

What magical strategem would you have used?

I dunno, the same one they did in the series, which worked? Or, if I don't have that option, "I don't know, but not that one". Just because I can't give another plan doesn't mean I can't spot holes in a suggested one.

I'm asking because I can walk up to someone and say, "You're wrong" and then walk away. That does nothing.

Well, it's a good thing I didn't just say "bad tactic" as my only words, and in fact wrote about 100-200 in how and why it would be a bad tactic, and the reasons for it, isn't it?

Please elaborate further.

On what? You've not actually tried to debate anything other than my last two words. So how about getting off your high horse about it?

Third, I haven't seen the episode recently, but Starfleet was in a rush. The entire minefield was about to go down. There's no more time, pedal to the metal, haul ass, get your ass over there. According to MA, there were 1200+ Dom ships, with most of them more than able to kick the ass of any ship Starfleet or the Klingons or the Romulans sent against them one on one. It was pure desperation, through and through. Bad tactics usually accompany desperate acts.

... which has no baring on anything I said.




I've been around on this forum long enough to know the decorum and sarcasm that runs through a lot of these Trek / wars / vs threads, but usually those doing it have a reason for it; or they're at least courteous enough to read the entire post instead of replying to a single line as if that was it.

You want to have a debate on it? Fine, debate my points and my post, not individual words in an attempt to look "clever" to the others.





My reply was to the point:

A far better tactic would have been to just send the main fleet as they did to hold the enemy down and than a small strike force to go around completely

And *MY* point was:

1) They didn't know the Klingons were going to be there - that was a surprise to both sides of the battle and not something that could be planned

2) DS9 itself, fully armed and operational, can take on a fleet of a hundred ships (give or take)

3) If they took 100 or so ships from the main force, that's 500 vs 1200, and I don't like those odds for the Federation. As you point out, they had run out of time - this is a direct quote from the episode by the way. "We've run out of time". They couldn't get more ships to have a separate strike force, they'd have to come from the main fleet itself. Also see point 1. They did not know the Klingons were coming and therefore could not make a strike force made of cloaked ships and the Defiant.


Any less, and they can't retake DS9, any more, and the main battle is lost along with all 3 main fleets sent to it.

That's why it's a bad tactic, that's what I said in my post, not just "bad tactic". Debate those points or fuck off.