OTNGEG: Code of Honor
Posted: 2011-12-25 10:11am
StarDestroyer.Net BBS
Get your fill of sci-fi, science, and mockery of stupid ideas
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/
OTNGEG: Code of Honor
Page 1 of 3
Re: OTNGEG: Code of Honor
Posted: 2011-12-25 04:02pm
Considering what Chuck covered in ten minutes, I'm wary how long the Agony Booth's analysis will be.
Re: OTNGEG: Code of Honor
Posted: 2011-12-27 02:47pm
I hated this episode. As far as my views on the series it is a tie for me for being the worst TNG episode with this one and Justice. The pretentiousness of the first season is sickening.
Re: OTNGEG: Code of Honor
Posted: 2011-12-27 08:21pm
Wow. I think that's the first Zero I've ever seen Chuck give out 
Re: OTNGEG: Code of Honor
Posted: 2011-12-27 08:33pm
I think there's one per series. Voyager had Threshold and Enterprise had A Night in Sickbay.Batman wrote:Wow. I think that's the first Zero I've ever seen Chuck give out
Re: OTNGEG: Code of Honor
Posted: 2011-12-27 09:12pm
I think I've only ever seen the last 5 minutes of this episode. I am very glad that I've never seen it.
Interesting notes. Memory Alpha has cast opinions on this episode. At least three members of the cast call this the worst episode they've ever done.
Chuck is also very observant. He has picked up on some of the trends and nuances of the first few seasons that several people have missed. We always knew early TNG was very 80s in its view. A captain that needs his therapist on the bridge no less. But the elements of always respecting other cultures is right up there.
On a final note. "Panting shittingly close" it an awesome description. I imagine had Riker not been an incompetent moron, that display might actually have scared the inhabitants of the planet into surrendering. Also, the Mirror Universe books made mention of this episode. The ISS Enterprise visited this planet looking for the same cure. They were put through the same initial trials. Mirror Enterprise sterilized the southern hemisphere in retaliation.
Interesting notes. Memory Alpha has cast opinions on this episode. At least three members of the cast call this the worst episode they've ever done.
Chuck is also very observant. He has picked up on some of the trends and nuances of the first few seasons that several people have missed. We always knew early TNG was very 80s in its view. A captain that needs his therapist on the bridge no less. But the elements of always respecting other cultures is right up there.
On a final note. "Panting shittingly close" it an awesome description. I imagine had Riker not been an incompetent moron, that display might actually have scared the inhabitants of the planet into surrendering. Also, the Mirror Universe books made mention of this episode. The ISS Enterprise visited this planet looking for the same cure. They were put through the same initial trials. Mirror Enterprise sterilized the southern hemisphere in retaliation.
Re: OTNGEG: Code of Honor
Posted: 2011-12-27 09:25pm
Assuming the Pegasus not quite 500KT photorps, had Riker not been the least capable gunner available, what would have been the results of the torpedoes going off at the height Picard actually ordered?
Re: OTNGEG: Code of Honor
Posted: 2011-12-27 09:33pm
1000 meter airbursts on half megaton weapons would be extremely deadly. It would level any civilian grade structure. There is just nothing in nature that can match that level of immediate destructive power.Batman wrote:Assuming the Pegasus not quite 500KT photorps, had Riker not been the least capable gunner available, what would have been the results of the torpedoes going off at the height Picard actually ordered?
Re: OTNGEG: Code of Honor
Posted: 2011-12-27 09:36pm
Hm, is it possible that Riker interpreted this as "the outer range of destructive force should stop at this height" rather than the simply missing his target?
As has been noted, detonating at that level would have killed tons of people, not very effective as a warning shot.
As has been noted, detonating at that level would have killed tons of people, not very effective as a warning shot.
Re: OTNGEG: Code of Honor
Posted: 2011-12-27 10:01pm
How in Valen's name would that not have been effective? If you want to argue it wouldn't have been the TNG UFP way, hell yes. But how is it not effective[/i?] You just showed them your opening move was murderizing a couple million (or 7 and a poodle, depending on the population density of the planet) people. Yes, you're seriously pissed and you don't particularly care if bombing their planet back into the stone age is what is needed to get Tasha back. Again, not the TNG UFP way, not what Picard went with, but how exactly is going 'I just effortlessly killed a couple million of your citizens (or 7 and a poodle, depending on population density) and there's nothing you can do to keep me from doing that until you're extinct so how about you give her back?' not effective?Cesario wrote:Hm, is it possible that Riker interpreted this as "the outer range of destructive force should stop at this height" rather than the simply missing his target?
As has been noted, detonating at that level would have killed tons of people, not very effective as a warning shot.
Re: OTNGEG: Code of Honor
Posted: 2011-12-27 10:07pm
Not effective as a warning shot. That isn't a warning shot. Do we need to review what a warning shot is?
Re: OTNGEG: Code of Honor
Posted: 2011-12-27 10:15pm
Apparently, we do. A warning shot is something saying 'and if you don't heel, we'll do a lot worse'. I'd say that qualifies.Cesario wrote:Not effective as a warning shot. That isn't a warning shot. Do we need to review what a warning shot is?
Re: OTNGEG: Code of Honor
Posted: 2011-12-27 10:28pm
On a universal scale a couple million people (leave alone 7 and a poodle) are pretty damned harmless, but yes, I yield.
Re: OTNGEG: Code of Honor
Posted: 2011-12-27 11:36pm
Remember Bats, he said "Across her nose, not up it."
But seriously guys, I know this episode was SHITE, but was it really worse than Genesis?
But seriously guys, I know this episode was SHITE, but was it really worse than Genesis?
Re: OTNGEG: Code of Honor
Posted: 2011-12-27 11:48pm
Yes. It was.Darth Tedious wrote:Remember Bats, he said "Across her nose, not up it."
But seriously guys, I know this episode was SHITE, but was it really worse than Genesis?
Genesis was silly but hilarious fun. This is just offensively stupid.
EDIT I mean holy shit, Genesis has got everything. Worf spits acid in Crusher's face, Troi turns into an amphibian, Riker turns into a Neanderthal and flips the bird off at the camera, Barclay turns into Spider-Barclay
Data's fucking CAT turns into a LIZARD
that episode was awesome
Re: OTNGEG: Code of Honor
Posted: 2011-12-28 12:14am
"Genesis" was simply TNG on LSD. "Code Of Dishonour" was TNG's visit to the Planet of Racist African Stereotypes.
Re: OTNGEG: Code of Honor
Posted: 2011-12-28 01:29am
Detonating at that level with 500 kiloton weapons would have caused that devastation. When you are trying to impressive local primitives, I would have gone for a smaller charge detonated at 1000 meters for more impressive effects. Thundering fireballs and shockwaves that don't boil flesh and crush buildings might have gotten their attention.Cesario wrote:Hm, is it possible that Riker interpreted this as "the outer range of destructive force should stop at this height" rather than the simply missing his target?
As has been noted, detonating at that level would have killed tons of people, not very effective as a warning shot.
Re: OTNGEG: Code of Honor
Posted: 2011-12-28 01:44am
Probably worth noting that this civilization, while culturally primitive as all hell, was technologically advanced enough to build their own transporter. Huge explosion at higher altitude targeted at the precise range to just kiss your skyline with the final plumes of smoke would be a lot more impressive to a civilization capable of appreciating it.
Re: OTNGEG: Code of Honor
Posted: 2011-12-28 12:53pm
Damn it all, I remember this episode. I also remember facepalming multiple times through it when I watched it a few years ago. I'm not sure I can force myself to watch Chuck's review. Chuck is great, but man, this episode.
Re: OTNGEG: Code of Honor
Posted: 2011-12-28 02:49pm
I have a fondness for "Genesis". It's silly, but fun.Patrick Degan wrote:"Genesis" was simply TNG on LSD. "Code Of Dishonour" was TNG's visit to the Planet of Racist African Stereotypes.
"Code of Honor"...never seen it and never will.
Re: OTNGEG: Code of Honor
Posted: 2011-12-29 10:03pm
Amazingly, even this shitty excuse for an episode has its defenders (after seeing it for myself I didn't consider for a moment that anyone would actually stand up for it). This is from the comments thread for part one:
This "Wylde" character claims that he doesn't see the what the fuss is all about. That there was no indication that "the White Guys were the superior ones to the Black Guys" (I love the use of capitalisation, by the way). What about the fact that Picard and the Enterprise crew, unlike Lutan, would never abduct a woman and brag about using her as a status symbol or treat her as property? Lutan who is condescending and dismissive when the Enterprise crew tries to negotiate. Or that there isn't a single sympathetic or likeable Ligonian in the entire episode? What few characters we get to know are characterised as backward, brutish, arrogant, smug and obnoxious. They also seem to be completely apathetic about what happens to one of their own people (no one gives a crap about the random person in the audience who is accidentally stabbed and dies during the duel). Not even Lutan's wife, Yareena, is remotely grateful for being saved. Yeah, the Federation and the Ligonians are definitely on an equal footing in the principles department. All of the failings of the episode stick out like a sore thumb. As Chuck pointed out the director (Russ Mayberry) was rightly fired by Roddenberry after he arbitrarily made the Ligonians a race of black people. After all of that, what more evidence do you need that it's garbage?
I'm in full agreement with Chuck here. A zero is all that it deserves. It's poorly paced, poorly written, there aren't any particularly interesting character beats and it's offensive (as has already been repeatedly stated). The bottom of TNG's barrel, indeed.
Why do I get the feeling that this apologist only saw a few minutes of the review and then reached this idiotic opinion? How the fuck could anyone not see this sorry chapter in Star Trek history as being anything other than racist trash? I mean, it's inherent in the premise for crying out loud! The whole episode plays out like some bullshit 1950s PSA about the "dangers of race-mixing" or the fever dreams of some KKK nutbag. The uncivilised, barbaric dark-skinned people lusting after defiant, white meat.Wylde wrote:Chuck, I disagree. I call bullshit, finally, on this whole racism schtick. It's not racism.
This episode is not really racist; the show is, but not the episode. Bigoted perhaps, but not racist. Racism is the belief that one race is superior to all others, and you base your policies accordingly. While this episode strained to show a distinctly culturally quasi-African stereotype, this is still not racism. That's right, not racism. And no, I still don't think their behavior toward Tasha was necessarily racist either. However, if you want to see an example of real sexism, look no further than Angel One. Geez, time for me to do these reviews. Pointing out and displaying an ethnic tendency is not racism. Pointing it out and telling why it's a bad thing is not racism, but criticism. Pointing to a person and judging them based squarely on their skin color IS racism. Better yet, expecting a man to kill himself because he can't be expected to bear with a life-crippling disability is known as the Soft Bigotry of Low Expectations. There is a distinction between bigotry and racism. Everyone is a bigot. EVERYONE. Why? Because we prefer what we know and understand to the unfamiliar. That's Human Nature 101. We prefer that because it's our comfort zone. We know how to properly interact and deal with things we're familiar with; that's our comfort zones. We tend to group in accordance with our comfort zones, based on ethicity, language, skin color, gender, age group, and so on. Now, I'm not saying that since everyone is a bigot that we can't get along. Hardly. What we do is feel each other out, learn what we can as we go, and the more familiar we are and the more understanding we become the more we adopt them into our comfort zones. It's a form of self-defense. After all, when you see someone different than you, they might not hold to your values. They might not be trustworthy. And even in our highly informed world we generalize people into stereotypes because it's part of how we, as mere humans, deal with the world at large.
At no point in this episode did I get the impression that the White Guys were the superior ones to the Black Guys. I looked at the White Guys as being part of a different Nation than the Black Guys. That is not Racism. There might've been some bigotry on the part of the writers, but if it bothers you...you can go to Hell.
Because this kind of shit needs to stop. People who simply look at others in a way like the way Chuck just did, and call it racism without thinking, has got to stop. It's wrong, because it's based squarely on Political Correctness, the whole point of which is to stifle honest and valid criticism and debate.
People have their flaws. They should be pointed out, whether the flaws belong to those considered minorities or not. Multiculturalism is meant mainly to separate people from one another, by emphasizing their differences rather than dealing with them. Not all of them are equal, as history has shown.
This "Wylde" character claims that he doesn't see the what the fuss is all about. That there was no indication that "the White Guys were the superior ones to the Black Guys" (I love the use of capitalisation, by the way). What about the fact that Picard and the Enterprise crew, unlike Lutan, would never abduct a woman and brag about using her as a status symbol or treat her as property? Lutan who is condescending and dismissive when the Enterprise crew tries to negotiate. Or that there isn't a single sympathetic or likeable Ligonian in the entire episode? What few characters we get to know are characterised as backward, brutish, arrogant, smug and obnoxious. They also seem to be completely apathetic about what happens to one of their own people (no one gives a crap about the random person in the audience who is accidentally stabbed and dies during the duel). Not even Lutan's wife, Yareena, is remotely grateful for being saved. Yeah, the Federation and the Ligonians are definitely on an equal footing in the principles department. All of the failings of the episode stick out like a sore thumb. As Chuck pointed out the director (Russ Mayberry) was rightly fired by Roddenberry after he arbitrarily made the Ligonians a race of black people. After all of that, what more evidence do you need that it's garbage?
I'm in full agreement with Chuck here. A zero is all that it deserves. It's poorly paced, poorly written, there aren't any particularly interesting character beats and it's offensive (as has already been repeatedly stated). The bottom of TNG's barrel, indeed.
Re: OTNGEG: Code of Honor
Posted: 2011-12-29 10:34pm
Unless I misread that, I think Wylde is saying that it isn't racism because it's commenting openly and honestly about how black people really are.
Hope that sheds some light on the kind of people defending this episode.
Hope that sheds some light on the kind of people defending this episode.
Re: OTNGEG: Code of Honor
Posted: 2011-12-30 09:21am
That's what I got out of the comment too. All I have to wonder is at what point did the person think anything in the episode was realistic, honest or truthful about black people at all? Like Chuck said the only way to make the intention of the episode even more blatant would have been to put a bone thing in the head guy's nose.Cesario wrote:Unless I misread that, I think Wylde is saying that it isn't racism because it's commenting openly and honestly about how black people really are.
Hope that sheds some light on the kind of people defending this episode.
Re: OTNGEG: Code of Honor
Posted: 2011-12-31 04:43am
If I remember correctly, even at low orbital altitude a series of nuclear detonations (not even necessarily in the hundred-kiloton range) would make for a substantial lightshow on the ground.
Making an issue out of "durrrrrr riker must be a horrible shot!" is mere pedantry. Hey, you're smarter than a television writer, congratulations. Maybe it would be more insightful to ask whether the writer might have had the lightshow in mind, and if so whether he or she had written the scene thinking that Picard was acting under the assumption that he was dealing with primitive savages who would freak out at strange lights in the sky, and how that might tie in to the other grossly racist imagery in the episode.
I dunno. I can't be bothered to actually sit through the whole thing, because this sort of pedantry and terrible attempts at comedy are exactly why I don't care for Chuck's reviews.
Making an issue out of "durrrrrr riker must be a horrible shot!" is mere pedantry. Hey, you're smarter than a television writer, congratulations. Maybe it would be more insightful to ask whether the writer might have had the lightshow in mind, and if so whether he or she had written the scene thinking that Picard was acting under the assumption that he was dealing with primitive savages who would freak out at strange lights in the sky, and how that might tie in to the other grossly racist imagery in the episode.
I dunno. I can't be bothered to actually sit through the whole thing, because this sort of pedantry and terrible attempts at comedy are exactly why I don't care for Chuck's reviews.
Re: OTNGEG: Code of Honor
Posted: 2011-12-31 07:45am
Picard actually does say to set for a "display blast" in the script (and I believe the episode), so I doubt that Riker was deliberately aiming high in order to avoid causing any damage to the surface. If anything, it's just a really dumb mistake on the part of the VFX guys. They should have had the torpedoes detonate near the bottom of the picture, directly over the planet, so that their detonation altitude is ambiguous. Instead, we end up with this scenario where the best case is that Riker misheard Picard's order as "1000KM" instead of "1000M."
As for what this "Wylde" person is saying, it looks like the old "No True Scotsman" and "Circular Logic" twofer; namely, that because the episode doesn't come out and say black people are culturally or biologically inferior to white people, it isn't racist. It seems that he or she doesn't understand that there are ways of behaving in a racist manner without necessarily dropping N-Bombs all over the place and/or wearing your Klansman's robe to filming.
As for what this "Wylde" person is saying, it looks like the old "No True Scotsman" and "Circular Logic" twofer; namely, that because the episode doesn't come out and say black people are culturally or biologically inferior to white people, it isn't racist. It seems that he or she doesn't understand that there are ways of behaving in a racist manner without necessarily dropping N-Bombs all over the place and/or wearing your Klansman's robe to filming.