Why do people think Voyager isn't very good?

[Interlord1]

I've been watching recently, and 9/10 episodes are actually pretty entertaining if you try not to examine things that don't make sense. So what are peoples opinions on voyager, because I always hear bad opinions about it.

[IvanTih]

Well the first episode.Always irritates me that she saves a race of some short lived humanoids while ignoring her own crew's and herself's needs.

[Metahive]

I think the biggest thing is that the show ignored its own premises after a few token attempts to honor it. Neither does it feel as if they're far away from home, nor is there much tension between the two different crews, it's more or less a well-oiled machine that is always in best condition after the first two or three episodes. Then there are smaller things like Janeway's inconsistent characterization, the fact that except for the Doctor, Janeway and later Seven all the other main characters are shoved into the background and that the writing is often lacking to an annoying degree. On the Agony Booth Voyager was compared to a fast food dish, reliably satisfying one's hunger for sci-fi entertainment while being bland and not all that nutritious at the same time and I tend to agree.

O yeah, and I think this should be in the Star Trek forum.

[Razor One]

I've been watching recently, and 9/10 episodes are actually pretty entertaining if you try not to examine things that don't make sense. So what are peoples opinions on voyager, because I always hear bad opinions about it.

Bolded the important part.

In any good Science Fiction, thinking should NEVER be the enemy. The reverse in fact. Good science fiction should want us to examine it, to think about the issues raised and to carefully consider the implications.

Voyager gets a bad rap because, nine out of ten times, it deserves it. The implementation of the Prime Directive tends to be highly inconsistent, the writing is often bad, the science worse and the justifications for their deus ex machinas can be abysmal.

Sometimes it's the little inconsistencies... such as when Kes asks for soil samples for a hydroponics bay.

Other times it's the large inconsistencies. In the episode "Twisted" an anomaly buggers them sideways then dumps a whole mess of data about the quadrant in the ships computer. In a later episode, they know jack about the quadrant and the data they somehow managed to acquire vanished without a trace.

Character development is another angle where it fails almost entirely. If you focus on say, Harry Kim from start to finish, his character may as well have been trapped in amber for the entire series. He got zero development from start to finish and was pretty much only there to be the whipping boy of the entire series. He never gets a girl... not in any meaningful sense of the word, he never grows up and the times that Garret Wong did get to shine were few and far between... if they even existed because it's entirely possible that I'm hallucinating about those.

Other little things tend to get on my nerves as well. The speed at which the Maquis and Starfleet crews integrated, what passed for "Adult" behaviour in the crew, the fact that Bellana Torres couldn't identify manure with a tricorder in hand, missed moments of awesome that could have been, the handling of the Borg, Species 8472, the last minute romance between Seven and Chakotay, Chakotay, the handling of Q episodes past the first one to show up and let's not even mention the sheer failure that is Threshold, an episode so bad that the creators themselves disowned it from continuity.

That said there are redeeming qualities. The Doctor is an immensely enjoyable character from start to finish. If the characters on Voyager had had development arcs that were half as good as the Doctor's then the series would have been able to stand on it's own no matter how cockamamie the science was. Certain episodes and two parters stick out as excellence in a sea of shit. I loved Timeless and Juggernaut. Year of Hell was great as well.

I suggest watching SFDebris Opinionated Voyager Reviews, he really does give it to the series when it deserves it and praises it where it shines.

Ultimately Voyager suffered from bad writing, bad directing, and just plain "Not giving a shit" about the franchise as a whole. There are exceptions in the series but as a whole it fares poorly. Deep Space Nine, in comparison, works better, and while it did its best to de-construct and critique what Trek tends to be all about the fact of the matter is you can generally see the care that's been put into every episode and every season... except for Profit and Lace.

[someone_else]

The more I progressed in education, the more it triggered my anti-bullshit safeties, but that is true of most SF anyway (too bad that most stuff i saw interprets SF as "space fantasy").

Still, what ruins it is the BIG HONKING HUGE inconsistencies. I mean, there are always obvious deus-ex machinas and blatant logic failures.
The wole matter of holograms sets me off greatly.

And I have all the DVD collection of both voyager and DS9.

[NecronLord]

Topic Moved.

[DaveJB]

What really summed up Voyager for me was a line by Janeway (to her future self) in the finale; "There's got to be a way to have our cake and eat it."

That, for me, is why Voyager was truly a failure. It set up a situation where the main source of drama was going to be the choices they would have to make on their journey home, along with the difficult integration of two crews, and then completely threw away that premise. There were never any real hard decisions to make, any suggestion that the crew might ever choose any course of action that would result in anything other than the main characters coming up smelling of roses, and never anything more than the most perfunctory personal dilemmas (the only real exceptions that come to mind are "Tuvix," "Year of Hell" and that episode where Seven incorrectly thought that an alien scientist had been experimenting on her). Obviously the whole series doesn't have to be made up of episodes like that, but having the crew constantly portrayed as these supremely moral, near-invincible people not only came across as totally unreal, but it sucked the drama out of the series as a whole. Its failure in this regard stood out even more when you consider that DS9 and Babylon 5 were doing a much better job at the same time, but quite frankly Voyager's track record sucked even in comparison to TNG.

In short: Voyager sucks because it's a Sci-Fi drama show with virtually nothing in the way of actual drama, and what little it did feature was done far better on the three preceding shows (and, frankly, you could make an argument for Enterprise being better in that department as well).

[Eternal_Freedom]

For me, it was the massive inconsistencies in crew and supplies. For instance, somwhere in the first season Janeway is reluctant to use photon torpedoes because, according to Chakotay, they have "32, and no way to replace them." They fire off a LOT more than 32 during the series

Also, I can.t be sure, But I think there are far too many deaths in the series. Voyager has a stated crew of ~150, I think more than that number die during the series

[Srelex]

For me, it was the massive inconsistencies in crew and supplies. For instance, somwhere in the first season Janeway is reluctant to use photon torpedoes because, according to Chakotay, they have "32, and no way to replace them." They fire off a LOT more than 32 during the series

Also, I can.t be sure, But I think there are far too many deaths in the series. Voyager has a stated crew of ~150, I think more than that number die during the series

According to Ex Astris, a total of 33 crewmen died, and 93 torpedoes were fired. In fairness, couldn't they have got the material to replicate torpedoes along the way? I don't recall them ever actually saying that, but still.

Anyway, what other people have said. A lot of wasted potential, silly episodes, and lack of drama. I suppose it's okay if you just turn on the TV and there's nothing else on, but still, it's just frustrating to think what it could have been.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Was it only 33 dead guys? Maybe it was more than 150 different people seen aboard or something.

And, as Janeway said "we have no way to replace those torpedoes"

[Srelex]

Maybe she was being dumb? Wouldn't be too OOC.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Very true

[Kythnos]

According to Ex Astris, a total of 33 crewmen died, and 93 torpedoes were fired. In fairness, couldn't they have got the material to replicate torpedoes along the way? I don't recall them ever actually saying that, but still.

Did it happen to mention how many shuttles were lost in the series?
Other than what was mentioned my biggest problem that was the use of the "Reset Button". No matter how much damage the ship takes the next episode they are as good as new. One of the worst examples of this is "Deadlock". This never really happened to the Enterprise but if it did you could at least explain it away because they had access to the the Federations resources.

[Srelex]

Did it happen to mention how many shuttles were lost in the series?
Other than what was mentioned my biggest problem that was the use of the "Reset Button". No matter how much damage the ship takes the next episode they are as good as new. One of the worst examples of this is "Deadlock". This never really happened to the Enterprise but if it did you could at least explain it away because they had access to the the Federations resources.

15, apparently, plus a Delta Flyer. And yeah, that also reminds me--wasn't there the odd potential for interesting story arcs every now and then that was quickly quashed?

[TheFeniX]

For me personally, it was coming from watching DS9, the Voyager characters were just cardboard cut-outs. Robert Picardo was really the only saving grace. Tom Paris could be bearable when he wasn't written for a part in "Hot Shots: Part 3." Seven of Nine pretty much stole the show in the later seasons. Everyone else was just there when the needed them and could usually be described in one word.

That's not to say DS9 didn't have some hilariously stupid episodes, but the danger usually felt real. With Voyager, their 70 year trek felt more like an extended vaction. Any issues of "The ship will shut down in X time unless we find Y" were always forgotten for next weeks episodes. The overriding story arc (find supplies, find allies, find whatever to try and get home) was put completely out of focus so much, I just didn't care anymore. I'd rather see another episode centered around the doctor than the writers try, and fail, to give me some drama.

What really killed me was Year of Hell. It was bleak and the odds were stacked against them. They pull it off in a round about way. How will they put the ship back together after all th..... oh shit reset button. Set course for earth.

[JME2]

What really killed me was Year of Hell. It was bleak and the odds were stacked against them. They pull it off in a round about way. How will they put the ship back together after all th..... oh shit reset button. Set course for earth.

That was a major point that RDM made, that the ship should not look spick and span after all these years and battles in the Delta Quadrant. nBSG reflects this; the Galactica of the series-finale has been to hell and back compared to the worn, but intact Galactica of the pilot mini-series.

My feelings on the the show are similiar to everyone else's opinions: wasted premise, no drama, stupid writing and inconsistencies, etc. It's even worse now considering Michael Piller's memoirs show that they never had any intention of following up on the inter-crew conflict the pilot set up.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I always thought the instant intergration was retarded.

I'll second what others have said, the Doctor was the only redeeming character. He developed, he provided drama (sometimes) and an element of humour. Plus I just like Robert Picardo as an actor

[JME2]

I always thought the instant intergration was retarded.

I'll second what others have said, the Doctor was the only redeeming character. He developed, he provided drama (sometimes) and an element of humour. Plus I just like Robert Picardo as an actor

I'll put it this way: I ended up rooting week after week for the Delta Quadrant to kill them all except for the Doctor. Picardo can turn shit into gold.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I wasn't rooting for them ALL to die, just the self-righteous, cardboard-cut-out chaacters

Oh, wait, that is all of them

[Baffalo]

Voyager tried to take the same basic premise as DS9, that of a sci-fi sitcom, and apply it to work in the Delta Quadrant. They wanted to show new and exotic locations after DS9 screwed the pooch by focusing entirely on a space station and war around it. The concept has merit, as it offered a chance for a ship completely unlike the Enterprise to be cast across the galaxy and made to return home, an idea recycled from a few episodes of TNG.

However, the biggest issue plaguing Voyager was this asshole:



Now to give Rick Berman some slack, he came in as Gene was starting to go out, so he wasn't in from the beginning. Since he had no real veterans, he only had the utopian vision of Star Trek instilled in him by Roddenberry. So he has to maintain a sort of compromise between evolving the characters and maintaining the overall theme that Roddenberry himself wanted. While he managed that just fine with TNG, trying to apply the same idea, that of a ship roaming the galaxy, would just seem like more of the same. So they come out with DS9, hoping that by having a new and interesting format, they could show new aspects of Starfleet and the Federation.

However, like all good things Rick Berman touches, eventually it all goes to shit. While I can certainly understand his wanting to get involved, his idea for the Dominion War was to be a few episodes long and end with everyone hugging and becoming friends. Eventually the writers told him that it's a fucking war, and that you don't blow up one side and then kiss and make up a day later. That just isn't realistic. So Berman had the idea of the Dominion War yanked out of his hands and it grew and evolved on its own. That's why DS9 didn't completely irk the entire audience, since someone with a brain tried to work on it.

Voyager, however, was uncomfortable from the beginning. As DS9 was still warming up, Berman was still making the transition from television to films with Generations, which was ultimately poor but still made enough money to keep the executives at Paramount happy. So Paramount knew Star Trek was making money, and they wanted more of course. So they began to pressure Rick for a new series. Berman felt pressured, as he explains in an interview.

"I think a lot of things did work. It was the first attempt to do a Star Trek show on a starship that was not the Enterprise. It was a show that was pushed on the public a little too quickly, which was difficult. It was very difficult to have a female lead who could have the authority of a Starfleet captain and simultaneously have the nurturing feminine qualities that we were all after. It was a difficult thing to do. I think that may have been part of the motivation for bringing in Jeri Ryan... It was something we tried to do, something I think we did successfully, but not as successfully as we'd hoped. I think there may have been a problem with the whole idea of throwing the ship to the other side of the galaxy, because I think Star Trek, at its soul, is a show about heading outward into new places and discovering new things, and this was a show about heading back and trying to find our way home. We hoped that the amount of adventure and exploration would be the same on our journey back home, but I think something was lost on their way home."

Wow, certainly explains Harry Kim's problems with women if the captain has to be both a badass and a mommy figure. Still, Voyager was pushed into production, and since Berman is responsible for all things Star Trek at this point, he has to make sure it fits in with Premier Roddenberry's dream of a socialist state. It was that or the studio execs would find a way to do it without him, and he wasn't about to let that happen. For a socialist, he sure loves money. And the single reason Voyager survived was because it earned enough money for the Paramount execs to light their cigars with money, though they had to settle for 20s instead of 100s.

The final nail in the coffin of Berman's career was of course Enterprise and Nemesis, but that's a tale for another time.

[dworkin]

I have seen three episodes, all bad.

The first episode (pilot) was ghastly but that's forgivable as it can be hard to act in pyjamas with a straight face. The second episode I saw had the insipid and uninspired crew beams over to alien ship, catches alien cooties, proceeds to infect entire ship because an isolation and observation ward is lost tech. The third episode was at the insistance of my wife accusing me of being far too judgemental, I hate strong female characters, it's all supposed to be fun, blah, blah, blah. It was the one where Janeway takes three crew who have never been on an away mission before and they all die. The until then nameless crew, not Janeway. I think it was after the words 'Board of Inquiry' in my commenting that the fight really started.

So, no sir. I don't like it. I don't like it at all.

[dworkin]

[quote=A microenchephiletic crack baby]It was very difficult to have a female lead who could have the authority of a Starfleet captain and simultaneously have the nurturing feminine qualities that we were all after.[/quote]

Two fucking words, Cordelia Vorkosigan.
Or two other fucking words for the reading impaired, Ellen Ripley.
And there are others.

[JME2]

Princess Leia "Into the Garbage Chute, Flyboy!" Organa?

[TheFeniX]

Plus I just like Robert Picardo as an actor

It would be a while later when I caught "Innerspace" on TV and had on of those "Holy shit! It's X! I never knew he was in this movie" moments. Upon re-watching the movie when I was older, I did notice how he managed to capture almost all of Martin Short's mannerisms during the "Clone him" scenes. And let's face facts, Short is a weird guy. It was also kind of weird to see him caricature, rather than emulate, Seven when I was watching Chuck's review of a certain episode. Anyways, just a side note. He was also awesome in his ER appearance.

My feelings on the the show are similiar to everyone else's opinions: wasted premise, no drama, stupid writing and inconsistencies, etc. It's even worse now considering Michael Piller's memoirs show that they never had any intention of following up on the inter-crew conflict the pilot set up.

I did not know that. The show was on a rocky start with me as the Kazon just never felt threatening in more than a "stupid high-school bully" kind of way. I also thought the bromance between Paris and Kim could have served as the focal point of mixing the crews if Paris hadn't immediately jumped on the Janeway bandwagon.

I have to admit, I was very forgiving of the show as it came out when I was in my teens and I loved DS9. I probably would have told you then that Voyager was a decent show with a few bad episodes. But then it got syndicated as did DS9 and TNG. I watched pretty much every single episode of DS9 now that I consider myself a little more discerning. The series held up well. But, I had to stop watching many episodes of Voyager (and TNG) part-way through as much of the dialog and plots were just cringe inducing. This was also around the time I started reading this site and you guys fucking ruined me for Voyager (not that I'm complaining).

[Baffalo]

I always thought the instant intergration was retarded.

I'll second what others have said, the Doctor was the only redeeming character. He developed, he provided drama (sometimes) and an element of humour. Plus I just like Robert Picardo as an actor

I was just thinking on the matter and I think I realized why the crew integrated so fast, and it also happens to tie into Star Trek V of all things so bear with me as I elaborate.

Star Trek V, the bastard child of the Star Trek franchise, tried to take on a gritty and realistic feeling under Shatner's completely fucked up directing. However, as our favorite opinionated commenter has pointed out, it might just be a realistic depiction of the Federation under a socialist or communist government: There's no reason to be competent or do a good job, because no matter what you do, that shit they feed you will be the same and you won't go anywhere. So as miserable a movie as Star Trek V was, it's a fairly accurate description.

Now, considering that in TNG we see ships with counselors and happy, smiling faces and everyone just so happy to be aboard and serving for the Federation, sure we could interpret that as the cheery rose colored glasses Roddenberry gave out to everyone (as well as a bag to throw up in), but what if that's a true representation? That everyone is happy and cheerful? What happened between Star Trek V and TNG that caused everyone to become so happy and content? The answer is of course, drugs.



Everyone no doubt knows about Ritalin, the scary drug they sometimes force on kids to make them sit still and behave, or in other words CONFORM OR BE PUNISHED. Honestly, since the government controls all aspects of food distribution and has all the medicine under its control, they can very easily put drugs in what you eat and drink, inject you with a cocktail to control what you think, or just slowly weed out troublemakers who don't take their medication. Facing that scenario, it's no wonder that shortly after the Marquis were brought aboard, they began to calm down and embrace the Starfleet Utopia, even under Captain Murder-Bitch.

This would also explain why everyone appears like cardboard cut-outs, since the drugs would no doubt mellow everyone out and make them obey even more. Janeway might have even ordered, or whatever passed for a political officer ordered, the drug levels increased to prevent a mutiny while she tried to get her ass back home. It's certainly an interesting theory and I know someone's going to find fault with it, but that's just the take I thought about.



And of course, Picardo is just awesome.