Star Trek, five months later

PST: discuss Star Trek without "versus" arguments.

Moderator: Vympel

Rate the movie!

10 - I have no sense of perspective and think mankind will never better this masterpiece
2
1%
9
8
5%
8 - very good
44
25%
7
51
29%
6 - decent but flawed
46
26%
5
13
7%
4 - poor
4
2%
3
2
1%
2 - shit
3
2%
1
1
1%
 
Total votes: 174

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Gramzamber
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by Gramzamber »

Problem is when you give them bigger guns it produces scenes like God Mode Doom Picard in Nemesis, and then they'll just find a way to break it and degenerate into fisticuffs anyway. :P
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by Anguirus »

To be a little fair to that scene, they were jumping onto a tiny platform without the ability to bring much equipment. At that close range, it's not enough to have a gun even if the other guy only has a knife. Still, would have been a lot smarter just to drop smart-bombs out of the shuttle, or have mastered the phaser-sling, but hey, it's Star Trek. And a cute homage to "fencer Sulu."

Sort of goes back to what I've said before, it's fair to be outraged at how little sense that movie made but the "classic" Trek movies weren't much better. I think there's significant room for improvement, but I WANT to see them improve as opposed to the "let it die already" I held after Nemesis.
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by Ryan Thunder »

Anguirus wrote:To be a little fair to that scene, they were jumping onto a tiny platform without the ability to bring much equipment. At that close range, it's not enough to have a gun even if the other guy only has a knife.
Actually, it is. A pistol is just that much more deadly than a gun. One twitch of the index finger will cause more internal trauma than a knife wound. And that's not even considering that they're using phasers, which are known to disintegrate people entirely. ;)
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by Darth Wong »

Unfortunately, there seems to be a Hollywood cliché that if you have a gun in your hand, it will promptly get kicked out of your hand if the person is in the same room. However, if you have a knife in your hand, that is far less likely.
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by Simon_Jester »

In close combat, shit does happen once in a while, and you get cases like this. In theory it should never come up and melee combat skills should be completely irrelevant, but it still does come up. Occasionally.

What would be truly stupid is if they didn't have guns when they dropped onto the platform... I seem to recall that they did NOT, but I'm not sure, so I don't want to assert that the movie actually was that stupid about the matter without proof.
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by Darth Wong »

Simon_Jester wrote:In close combat, shit does happen once in a while, and you get cases like this. In theory it should never come up and melee combat skills should be completely irrelevant, but it still does come up. Occasionally.
Unless I'm reading that wrong, he didn't even hurt anyone with the knife. He just surprised them and they backed away.
What would be truly stupid is if they didn't have guns when they dropped onto the platform... I seem to recall that they did NOT, but I'm not sure, so I don't want to assert that the movie actually was that stupid about the matter without proof.
It doesn't matter; even if they wanted to carry a backup weapon, a pistol to back up the rifle is a better choice than a knife or a goofball magic-sword. The magic katana was a real eye-rolling moment. Gee, do you think that if you had a weapon that could materialize a blade out of thin air, you might find a more effective way to use that to kill someone? You know, like pointing it at someone and having it materialize something in his heart?
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by Terralthra »

It didn't look like it materialized anything to me, more like a multi-section switch-katana. Which is no less retarded, I'll grant.
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by Bounty »

Yeah, it folds out in sections. I thought it was pretty cool as a visual, but you can't end up with a very good knife if it needs all the folding tech built in.
What would be truly stupid is if they didn't have guns when they dropped onto the platform... I seem to recall that they did NOT, but I'm not sure
Pistols, which they lost.

Not bringing guns onto the drill didn't bother me that much; they were skydiving from orbit, after all, and the suits didn't look like they had much space for extra equipment. Combined with having the element of surprise, pistols would have sufficed if Olson hadn't been terminally stupid.
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by Adrian Laguna »

Anguirus wrote:And a cute homage to "fencer Sulu."
Schlock Mercenary did the fencing thing better.
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by Anguirus »

Actually, it is. A pistol is just that much more deadly than a gun.
You'd have a point if they weren't armed when they jumped, but they were. Phaser + hand-to-hand combat training > phaser.

Agreed that Schlock does EVERYTHING better. ;)
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This is the guy they want to use to win over "young people?" Are they completely daft? I'd rather vote for a pile of shit than a Jesus freak social regressive.
Here's hoping that his political career goes down in flames and, hopefully, a hilarious gay sex scandal.
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by Grif »

Just watched it again and one thing stuck in my mind.

Why the hell does Earth and Vulcan NOT have any atmospheric fighters? Or any small space-faring vessels of any kind that could actually shoot the mining drill? Not even missiles?

Then again this IS Star Trek and everything can usually be handwaved away due to the stupidity of Starfleet.
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by Bounty »

Then again this IS Star Trek and everything can usually be handwaved away due to the stupidity of Starfleet.
Then why are you posting here?
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by Grif »

Hey, don't get me wrong. I like the series. I grew up on Voyager after all.

But you think they could made it at least Earth and Vulcan attempt to fight back with what planet-side force they had and Nero brushing them aside. Would have made Nero look more badass.
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by Darth Wong »

When the hell is this thing coming out on video, anyway?
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by Bounty »

November 16th
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Grif wrote:Hey, don't get me wrong. I like the series. I grew up on Voyager after all.

But you think they could made it at least Earth and Vulcan attempt to fight back with what planet-side force they had and Nero brushing them aside. Would have made Nero look more badass.

I'm not sure, but for what its worth, I think there was a line in the novelization about atmospheric craft. I'll verify it next time I'm at a library.

Perhaps the audience is supposed to assume that Nero already destroyed any defenses by the time Enterprise arrived? Agreed that it would have made Nero cooler if we'd seen him taking them out, though.
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by Simon_Jester »

Grif wrote:Just watched it again and one thing stuck in my mind.

Why the hell does Earth and Vulcan NOT have any atmospheric fighters? Or any small space-faring vessels of any kind that could actually shoot the mining drill? Not even missiles?

Then again this IS Star Trek and everything can usually be handwaved away due to the stupidity of Starfleet.
Peaceful utopia worlds, remember? The heavily armed starships are all off patrolling the borders, and Starfleet counts on its perimeter warning system to alert it to an invasion in time to reinforce the core worlds. Which is a foolish idea if an enemy comes hurtling into Federation space faster than they can redeploy to face it. Wolf 359, anyone?
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by Batman »

What would be the use of atmospheric fighters to begin with? Yeah, they'd have been handy to kill the drill. They'd have been completely USELESS otherwise since the REAL threat in Trek (nu OR old) would be starships bombarding the planet from orbit, which atmospheric fighters can't do beans about other than intercepting the odd torpedo/phaser blast here and there.
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by Jon »

Is there any inidication how long it took from the Narada entering orbit to the destruction of Vulcan? While waiting for Starfleet reinforcements, what kind of defence could they have mounted, assuming Nero was able to destroy any planetary defences in range when he arrived. Was there enough time for them to assess what was actually happening and mount a competent defence? Not quite sure how Nero destroyed a whole fleet of starships in minutes, as well as [perhaps] defeating any planetary defences , yet couldn't destroy a ship 25 years earlier after pounding it for minutes with the same weaponary).
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by Grif »

Batman wrote:What would be the use of atmospheric fighters to begin with? Yeah, they'd have been handy to kill the drill. They'd have been completely USELESS otherwise since the REAL threat in Trek (nu OR old) would be starships bombarding the planet from orbit, which atmospheric fighters can't do beans about other than intercepting the odd torpedo/phaser blast here and there.
Policing local threats on various core planets? I mean, a planet is still a big place and any planetary government would likely to have some ships handy to take care of the odd pirate or two. Or is this already redundant by the time of nu-ST?

(Granted, we have really limited info on the condition of nu-ST but it is a reasonable guess yes?)

@Simon_Jester
I thought only TNG/DS9 Trek was in this category of peaceful utopia world? TOS Trek had murderous prison colonies and what-not.
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by Simon_Jester »

Hard to say. Prison colonies just mean there's crime; it doesn't mean there's any need for locally controlled heavy weapons, any more than some quiet rural town in the middle of nowhere really needs a SWAT team. Or at least obviously needs a SWAT team; they might always get unlucky.
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by Crazedwraith »

One thing I just remembered really liking about Star Trek XI was the captain of the Kelvin, simply because the last time I saw that actor he was playing the role of Raza the lead terrorist in Iron Man. Obviously his casting was the modern equivalent of having a Russian on the bridge in TOS. Which I thought was a nice way to keep the same message; In the future we will be beyond this shit.
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by Akkleptos »

Gasphemer wrote:Kirk, where the hell did your awesome go?

That is all.
In this storyline, the "cool" in the character probably hasn't kicked in yet. I would suggest you hold on to your expectations until the next episode movie.

On topic: I gave this movie a rating of 7 (just slightly above "decent but flawed") because of reasons that have been so explicitly put forth now that I won't even refer to them, except for the fact that I thought it was a fun film to watch, and that my (no former) girlfriend liked it so much she is going to buy it on DVD (you may not know it, but the fact that my ex liked a lot speaks worlds by itself).

Personally, being aware that it was some sort of a "fresh-start" on a really old story, I didn't really give a rat's arse regarding its canonicity (and this coming from a TOS fan).

All in all, I think it was nice for one of those "Turn off your brain"-and-just-feel-the-story kind of things, with Trek tossed in to make it more enticing.
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

Ryushikaze wrote:Which is why I say Kirk should have snuck up on the mining rig to rescue Pike and met Oldspock there.

It streamlines the story and sidesteps some of the stupidest moments of the story. If you demand they land on the ice planet at all, have it be where they crash land after escaping Nero's ship after a failed attempt to get Pike and the squidship.
I know this was mentioned quite a ways back, but the more I read it the more OBVIOUS it seems. When I watched it for the first time, and it was clear Nero Captured Spock, my first reactions was "Oh he is going to have Spock chained on the bridge to watch the destruction of Vulcan, just you watch."

And then when I see him on the Ice planet, a planet I was led to believe is very far from VUlcan, I have a massive WTF!?

I think about it more and more and this simple, yes SIMPLE change would have made the move far less clunky, less plot convenient and streamlined things.

Kirk and Sulu, after disabling the mining 'drill' sneak on bored to rescue Pike. There, Kirk meets Old Spock in prison and rescues him. The Old Spock, Sulu, and Pike all leave in an escape pod, are picked up by New Spock, and the movie can continue form there.

Its THAT easy
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Re: Star Trek, five months later

Post by Stofsk »

Grif wrote:I thought only TNG/DS9 Trek was in this category of peaceful utopia world? TOS Trek had murderous prison colonies and what-not.
TOS had no such thing. "Dagger of the Mind" had Kirk comment on penal policies and practices of the Federation as being places where sick minds go to be rehabilitated. "Whom Gods Destroy" showed that those deemed 'incurable' were nevertheless kept alive on penal colonies that were mostly secure (aside from Garth of Izar's extraordinary ability to shape-shift, which nobody could have known about). Despite this, there still exists a death penalty - in "Menagerie", attempting to visit Talos 4 was punishable by death; in "The Ultimate Computer" Kirk outwits M5 by getting it to admit it murdered the crew of the Excalibur, and that the punishment for murder was death - and that therefore, M5 had to deactivate or 'kill' itself; and in "Turnabout Intruder", mutiny is a crime punishable by death as well.

The interesting thing about TOS is that the message it had was humans weren't perfect, but they were striving to better themselves. In comparison to TNG, the message was more "We're as good as we can be, we don't need to improve at all."
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