Plot inconsistency in ST:FC

[Boeing 757]

In Star Trek: First Contact, we saw that the Borg Queen devises a plot to travel back in time to 21st century Earth in order to destroy the Phoenix. The vessel used for this purpose was a modified Borg Sphere which the Enterprise-E followed and happened to destroy. That's all fine and dandy now, and it probably would have worked barring the presence of the E-E.

So, seeing that the Borg can and are willing to travel back in time, why didn't they just travel back to Borg space in the Delta Quadrant rather than traveling to Fed space and then making a jump over Earth? The plan makes sense and offers NO resistance whatsoever (You wouldn't lose a Cube if you didn't send it in the first place.), but the implentation is simply illogical. Is there something in ST time travel which would explain the reasoning behind this?

[Zac Naloen]

It was a last ditch plan IIRC.

They were about to lose the Cube near Earth and so the mission wasn't a total loss they went back in time so they'd at least get humanity out of the equation, if not their technology.

[Boeing 757]

It was a last ditch plan IIRC.

They were about to lose the Cube near Earth and so the mission wasn't a total loss they went back in time so they'd at least get humanity out of the equation, if not their technology.

That's the only thing which I could think of, honestly. Then again, one would think that logically the Collective would already know that the sphere in question would be able to travel back in time (Using it as last ditch effort and not knowing if it works up until that point doesn't make much sense, after all). So the Borg still could have traveled back to the DQ and then went on to destroy the Phoenix in the 21st century. It just doesn't make much sense.

[Jark]

They did it likely because there was no transwarp network leading to Earth back then so if they did travel back in time in the Delta Quadrant they would have to use conventional warp drive to get to Earth, which could take years if not decades.

[Darth Wong]

They did it likely because there was no transwarp network leading to Earth back then so if they did travel back in time in the Delta Quadrant they would have to use conventional warp drive to get to Earth, which could take years if not decades.

If the Borg were using the transwarp conduit network in STFC, why were they going so slowly that Fed ships could intercept them en masse?

[Jark]

If the Borg were using the transwarp conduit network in STFC, why were they going so slowly that Fed ships could intercept them en masse?

I mentioned this over in the transwarp thread and it makes some sense to me so I'll just copy/paste myself from there


I think it was another forum where they were guessing that one of the 2 cubes sent to Earth dropped off those manifolds on their way to Earth to extend the network that far, which is how the one in Voyagers finale got there. The speculation was that since the cube could only deploy manifolds smaller than itself, that only vessels smaller then cubes could use that particular transwarp conduit to get to Earth.

Looking at a picture of the hub, it might make sense as they do seem to have different sized manifolds

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Image:Transwarphub.jpg





If that does actually make sense then they didn't use the transwarp conduit seen in Endgame either because that cube somehow deployed it while en route to Earth, or the earlier cube in Best of Both Worlds deployed it and the manifold leading to Earth would be too small for a cube to pass through.

[Big Phil]

So, seeing that the Borg can and are willing to travel back in time, why didn't they just travel back to Borg space in the Delta Quadrant rather than traveling to Fed space and then making a jump over Earth? The plan makes sense and offers NO resistance whatsoever (You wouldn't lose a Cube if you didn't send it in the first place.), but the implentation is simply illogical. Is there something in ST time travel which would explain the reasoning behind this?

No - in universe the Borg are fucking morons. Out of universe the writers are fucking morons.

[PREDATOR490]

Time travel is supposed to be an extremely dangerous thing to play with. By going back in time the Borg are re-writing history on an epic scale which can very easily bite them in the ass down the road.
E.G
If they assimilate Earth who is going to bail their ass out when S8472 rape them ?

It may also be the Borg history is something they dont want to change either. We have no idea if the Borg Queen was the same in the past so a really simple reason is because the 'current' Queen dosent want to share power with herself or 'lesser' counterpart. By messing with Borg history the Queen may even be screwing with her own history to the point she dosent get assimilated or key events in Borg history never occur thus making time travel a last ditch gamble.

Using the same logic, if the Borg can use time travel then why dont they do something like what Admiral Janeway did with future Federation technology. It would only take a Borg ship to go back and hand over several hundred years of assimilated information.
The first time the E-D encounters the Borg would already have all its plans as well as the knowledge of what the Federation is likely to do hence they could rape the galaxy in short order. Since this hasnt been done, the use of time travel must have some problems the Borg are aware of.

[Kamakazie Sith]

In Star Trek: First Contact, we saw that the Borg Queen devises a plot to travel back in time to 21st century Earth in order to destroy the Phoenix. The vessel used for this purpose was a modified Borg Sphere which the Enterprise-E followed and happened to destroy. That's all fine and dandy now, and it probably would have worked barring the presence of the E-E.

So, seeing that the Borg can and are willing to travel back in time, why didn't they just travel back to Borg space in the Delta Quadrant rather than traveling to Fed space and then making a jump over Earth? The plan makes sense and offers NO resistance whatsoever (You wouldn't lose a Cube if you didn't send it in the first place.), but the implentation is simply illogical. Is there something in ST time travel which would explain the reasoning behind this?

Maybe it requires far too much energy so they had to do it right there. Hence the pathetic orbital bombardment?

[Junghalli]

Maybe it requires far too much energy so they had to do it right there. Hence the pathetic orbital bombardment?

Why would it take less energy to do it in Earth orbit than to do it in orbit of a Borg world somewhere in the Delta Quadrant and then use conventional propulsion to go to past Earth?

[Patrick Degan]

Fuel range. The sphere craft is about on par with a large shuttle, with limited crew and resources. Certainly nowhere near sufficient to make it even to where the opening of the conduit is and/or the time transit burned up just about the craft's whole fuel reserve. They were stuck.

An alternate possibility is that the sphere took damage while launching from the cubeship as it was being pounded by the Federation fleet and was unable to perform anything other than a random short range time-jump in order to escape destruction.

[Major Diarrhia]

They sent the timeship back for fun, they just wanted to see what would happen.

Or they knew they had to complete the timeloop somehow so the Borg ship in the past could send the signal that eventually lead them to Federation space could be sent. You know, the signal sent by the drones that were frozen and revived in the 2150's that survived the explosion and crash of the sphere's remains in the arctic. The signal then took 200 years to reach Borg space causing the Borg to eventually send a cube to explore the area the signal originated from.

[NecronLord]

In Star Trek: First Contact, we saw that the Borg Queen devises a plot to travel back in time to 21st century Earth in order to destroy the Phoenix. The vessel used for this purpose was a modified Borg Sphere which the Enterprise-E followed and happened to destroy. That's all fine and dandy now, and it probably would have worked barring the presence of the E-E.

So, seeing that the Borg can and are willing to travel back in time, why didn't they just travel back to Borg space in the Delta Quadrant rather than traveling to Fed space and then making a jump over Earth? The plan makes sense and offers NO resistance whatsoever (You wouldn't lose a Cube if you didn't send it in the first place.), but the implentation is simply illogical. Is there something in ST time travel which would explain the reasoning behind this?

Perhaps in so doing, they'd have needed to engage a more active super-powerful force in the region; say the Metrons, or the First Federation, from TOS, and they were unwilling to do that.

[Darth Smiley]

If Enterprise is considered part of ST cannon, it appears that any attempt by the Borg to alter timelines would be smacked down by the 31st century Feddies. They didn't intervene in the case of ST:FC because they knew that the Enterprise had already stopped the threat, and no intervention was required.

[wjs7744]

If Enterprise is considered part of ST cannon, it appears that any attempt by the Borg to alter timelines would be smacked down by the 31st century Feddies. They didn't intervene in the case of ST:FC because they knew that the Enterprise had already stopped the threat, and no intervention was required.

Very true. And if Enterprise isn't canon, then there is no conflict with Mike's time travel section, so either way, there seems to be an answer.

[Singular Intellect]

I wonder if one could propose that assimilating/creating alternate timelines is a serious objective of the Borg. If the Borg had succeeded in First Contact, they would've erased the existence of the Federation in an alternate timeline, while still having access to the cream of the crop Starfleet technology and knowledge that went into the Enterprise E.

That sounds incredibly efficient, even if it doesn't help the original Collective much.

[DarthShady]

I wonder if one could propose that assimilating/creating alternate timelines is a serious objective of the Borg. If the Borg had succeeded in First Contact, they would've erased the existence of the Federation in an alternate timeline, while still having access to the cream of the crop Starfleet technology and knowledge that went into the Enterprise E.

That sounds incredibly efficient, even if it doesn't help the original Collective much.

Do you really think the Borg are that smart?

But it would be efficient.

[PREDATOR490]

It would be more efficent to just collaborate with other Borg timelines and share technology / information.

Seeing as how TNG has footed the concept of infinite realities it seems more than likely that the Borg have assimilated the Federation more than once. We know in at least one alternate universe the Borg have accomplished the assimilation of the Federation as early as BOBW so I dont think one can reasonably assume the 29th - 31st century Time Cops have full dominion over different timelines to stop the Borg. It is unlikely they will help anyway becaues they only seem to care about unnatural interference from their own periods. If that was the case one would expect them to attack the Krenim Time ship or the million other time travel incidents throughout Star Trek history.


Voyager at least showed the Borg have intrests outside of the current 'dimension' by going after S8472. They supposedly started the war and know how to enter their realm so it isnt unreasonable to conclude the Borg are not limiting themselves to the Milky Way in their goals. I'm willing to guess the reason why we dont see them using it freely is because it is highly unpredictable and can potentially be hurtful.

[Junghalli]

Fuel range. The sphere craft is about on par with a large shuttle, with limited crew and resources. Certainly nowhere near sufficient to make it even to where the opening of the conduit is and/or the time transit burned up just about the craft's whole fuel reserve. They were stuck.

Then why not send the whole cube back instead? Although I suppose their time travel device could be sharply mass-limited. Although if that's the case one wonders why they didn't just build a small dedicated ship for the job. The sphere, as I remember, wasn't that much smaller than the E-E, so it's not like Treknology can't make long-range ships that small.

[Patrick Degan]

Fuel range. The sphere craft is about on par with a large shuttle, with limited crew and resources. Certainly nowhere near sufficient to make it even to where the opening of the conduit is and/or the time transit burned up just about the craft's whole fuel reserve. They were stuck.

Then why not send the whole cube back instead? Although I suppose their time travel device could be sharply mass-limited. Although if that's the case one wonders why they didn't just build a small dedicated ship for the job. The sphere, as I remember, wasn't that much smaller than the E-E, so it's not like Treknology can't make long-range ships that small.

The cube is getting whittled down by a fleet and had already taken heavy damage. I don't think it's in any shape at that point to attempt anything other than blowing up.

[PREDATOR490]

A) Borg cubes cant be sent back for one reason or another.

B) The Borg cube suffered too much damage to do it

Going on the concept of B has the notion that the Borg can send cubes back in time. This dosent seem too unreasonable to me given Transwarp technology has allowed the Borg some experience with time travel in the past.
You could say the whole purpose of the attack was to send the cube back hence the Queen being there to keep the drones together when they arrived. If this was the case then Picard may have actually picked up on the plan and whatever he was targeting linked to it. Regardless, with no proof either way and the fact it is all theory makes it useless beyond what you want to make up.

[Junghalli]

The cube is getting whittled down by a fleet and had already taken heavy damage. I don't think it's in any shape at that point to attempt anything other than blowing up.

No, I meant why not send the cube back in time while it's still next to its home base and then travel from there to Earth while in the past, thereby neatly bypassing the fleet that would blow it up. If their plan was to go back in time and attack Earth in the past the whole time it would make much more sense for them to make the trip across the galaxy in the past, when there wouldn't be a big fleet there to intercept them.

[PREDATOR490]

Sending a ship back in time over one of their own worlds will most likely cause issues with past Borg.

If you take the theory that they are jumping to a 'different' reality then they have no gurantees that the Borg / Earth will be the same there or how they will respond. Additionally, these Borg may not have the proper support base established to extend the collective link from the DQ to the AQ.
Even if they succeed in taking out Earth they will still end up having to go up against local powers with a single ship. It will no doubt take the past collective considerable time to catch up on several hundred years worth of advances before they managed to properly support the future versions.

If you take the theory they are going back in time then once again the Borg risk fucking up their own history on a level much like the Krenim Timeship went through. One single mistake and they could end up missing a key event that would hamper the collective, since we are talking about a period of centuries this dosent seem that implausible.
I'm strictly reminded of the theory in Endgame where killing the present day Janeway would undo everything the future version had done which could easily apply to the collective. If any past day version of a drone or even the Queen is improperly affected their history is wiped out epicly. By doing their 'jump' over Earth I suppose they limit the scope of the change strictly to that location rather than create a greater risk by doing it in their own space.

In either case it becomes apparant this 'strategy' isnt an instant-win kind of affair and at the very most would have been a 'secondary' objective. Since we havent seen the Borg do this kind of trick again, you can come up with two conclusions.
1) The Borg have the ability to do this trick but dont do it, <Insert Reason>

2) The Borg launched that Cube and/or sphere with that technology specifically. This of couse suggests the Borg considered this mission worthy of such a device being used for some benefit OR it was their goal to do this from the beginning.


From my own perspective, I could see a situation where the Borg decided to get a two for one deal. They sent out a cube with time traveling technology in it so they could assimilate the Federation in the current reality while also assimilating an earlier Earth in the bargin. The Queen goes with them because she has to keep the group together when they arrive and set up a 'new' Borg Empire in the past / alternate reality AQ.
If they found the Federation fleet too resistant they just send the cube or Sphere back and still come out 'winning'. The only reason they lost was because of the timely intervention of Picard. Without him the rest of that Federation fleet were a bunch of useless retards. Even if they managed to nail the cube before it started beaming drones down, I dont see them being able to catch that Sphere before it got away.

Overall, Picard seems to be the one factor that stopped them winning based on his contributions during the initial engagement. Without him, no leadership for the Federation fleet and no quick pursuit of the Sphere means the Borg win either way.

[Junghalli]

Sending a ship back in time over one of their own worlds will most likely cause issues with past Borg.

Not necessarily. They could launch from a planet that hadn't been assimilated or colonized yet in 2063. Or they could just make part of the trip in the present, stop briefly in interstellar space, do their time jump, and then make the rest of the trip in the past.

If you take the theory that they are jumping to a 'different' reality then they have no gurantees that the Borg / Earth will be the same there or how they will respond. Additionally, these Borg may not have the proper support base established to extend the collective link from the DQ to the AQ.
Even if they succeed in taking out Earth they will still end up having to go up against local powers with a single ship. It will no doubt take the past collective considerable time to catch up on several hundred years worth of advances before they managed to properly support the future versions.

Of course, all these problems are also present with the "go to Earth, get ass whupped by Federation fleet, then go back in time" plan.

From my own perspective, I could see a situation where the Borg decided to get a two for one deal. They sent out a cube with time traveling technology in it so they could assimilate the Federation in the current reality while also assimilating an earlier Earth in the bargin. The Queen goes with them because she has to keep the group together when they arrive and set up a 'new' Borg Empire in the past / alternate reality AQ.
If they found the Federation fleet too resistant they just send the cube or Sphere back and still come out 'winning'.

That sounds sensible.

[Patrick Degan]

The cube is getting whittled down by a fleet and had already taken heavy damage. I don't think it's in any shape at that point to attempt anything other than blowing up.

No, I meant why not send the cube back in time while it's still next to its home base and then travel from there to Earth while in the past, thereby neatly bypassing the fleet that would blow it up. If their plan was to go back in time and attack Earth in the past the whole time it would make much more sense for them to make the trip across the galaxy in the past, when there wouldn't be a big fleet there to intercept them.

I don't think this was their plan but rather a last-ditch desperation move when their cubeship was getting itself hacked to bits.