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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2006-12-06 01:33pm
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Regarding the "Unification" image, I'd be inclined to say that the starship received a transmission from a Federation agent on Romulus.

We know from "Face of the Enemy" that the Federation has agents on Romulus. We know that the Federation has ships regularly patrolling the Romulan border.

Part of a patrol ship's job is probably to "listen" for transmissions like this one.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2006-12-06 02:38pm
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Vympel wrote:
From TNG "Parallels", the Argus Array, a "subspace radio telescope":

<snip pic>

The facilities it can see are Deep Space 5 (top left), Iadara colonly (top right) Starbase 47 (bottom left) and Utopia Planitia on Mars (bottom right). For those that remember the episode, the Argus Array (previously featured in "The Nth Degree") had been retargeted by the Cardassians to observe Federation sites.

This Array is apparently 3LY or so from Cardassian space- anyone have any idea how far Cardassian space is from Earth's solar system?


This brings up an interresting question about visual sensors... Given the fact that the Argus Array was (at least) 4 light-years away from any of the targets seen in the screenshot, either the Cardassians (who had realigned the array to view what they wanted to see) were looking at 4-year-old images (given the speed of light), or Federation visual sensors were capable of seeing what was occuring at the time while many lihgt-years away. I tend to think the second speculation is accurate, as we've seen visual sensors "look" at objects light-years away in real time, rather than time-delayed. (A good example is the Voyager episode "Scorpion, part 1." The Borg armada of 15 cubes was over 2 light-years away, yet it was able to be displayed on Voyager's main viewscreen.)

All in all, I find that rather impressive, considering that we're talking about something that's basically advanced cameras.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2006-12-06 02:52pm
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Darth Judas wrote:
This brings up an interresting question about visual sensors... Given the fact that the Argus Array was (at least) 4 light-years away from any of the targets seen in the screenshot, either the Cardassians (who had realigned the array to view what they wanted to see) were looking at 4-year-old images (given the speed of light), or Federation visual sensors were capable of seeing what was occuring at the time while many lihgt-years away. I tend to think the second speculation is accurate, as we've seen visual sensors "look" at objects light-years away in real time, rather than time-delayed. (A good example is the Voyager episode "Scorpion, part 1." The Borg armada of 15 cubes was over 2 light-years away, yet it was able to be displayed on Voyager's main viewscreen.)

All in all, I find that rather impressive, considering that we're talking about something that's basically advanced cameras.


Light couldn't possibly reach the Argus array in a timely manner, and it's a subspace telescope anyway, so the visual representations produced by the telescope must actually be constructed from the data it collects from subspace. This indicates the existence of sophisticated software for analyzing the subspace receiver output and rendering the analysis in visual format.



"This is supposed to be a happy occasion... Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who."
-- The King of Swamp Castle, Monty Python and the Holy Grail

"Nothing of consequence happened today. " -- Diary of King George III, July 4, 1776

"This is not bad; this is a conspiracy to remove happiness from existence. It seeks to wrap its hedgehog hand around the still beating heart of the personification of good and squeeze until it is stilled."
-- Chuck Sonnenburg on Voyager's "Elogium"

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2006-12-06 02:53pm
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Darth Judas wrote:
(A good example is the Voyager episode "Scorpion, part 1." The Borg armada of 15 cubes was over 2 light-years away, yet it was able to be displayed on Voyager's main viewscreen.)


To be fair, in practically the next scene, Voyager was right in the middle of that flotilla, so close it was being buffetted by their drive fields, or something.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2006-12-06 03:07pm
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Ted C wrote:
Darth Judas wrote:
This brings up an interresting question about visual sensors... Given the fact that the Argus Array was (at least) 4 light-years away from any of the targets seen in the screenshot, either the Cardassians (who had realigned the array to view what they wanted to see) were looking at 4-year-old images (given the speed of light), or Federation visual sensors were capable of seeing what was occuring at the time while many lihgt-years away. I tend to think the second speculation is accurate, as we've seen visual sensors "look" at objects light-years away in real time, rather than time-delayed. (A good example is the Voyager episode "Scorpion, part 1." The Borg armada of 15 cubes was over 2 light-years away, yet it was able to be displayed on Voyager's main viewscreen.)

All in all, I find that rather impressive, considering that we're talking about something that's basically advanced cameras.


Light couldn't possibly reach the Argus array in a timely manner, and it's a subspace telescope anyway, so the visual representations produced by the telescope must actually be constructed from the data it collects from subspace. This indicates the existence of sophisticated software for analyzing the subspace receiver output and rendering the analysis in visual format.


It's also possible that the Feds were able to develop a method of seeing real-time visual images from light-years away.

Either way, though, it's some rather impressive technology.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2006-12-06 03:09pm
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NecronLord wrote:
Darth Judas wrote:
(A good example is the Voyager episode "Scorpion, part 1." The Borg armada of 15 cubes was over 2 light-years away, yet it was able to be displayed on Voyager's main viewscreen.)


To be fair, in practically the next scene, Voyager was right in the middle of that flotilla, so close it was being buffetted by their drive fields, or something.


IIRC, the Borg armada, even though it was 2 light-years away, was about 30 seconds away from interception.

I'll take a look on the DVD to see.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2006-12-06 03:17pm
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Okay, I looked. The dialogue in this scene flows quickly.

Kim: 15 Borg vessels. Distance... 2.1 light-years and closing.
Janeway: Shield to maximum, stand by all weapons.
Tuvok: They're in visual range.
Janeway: On screen.
*Visual: an armada of Borg cubes approaching Voyager quickly.*

This all takes place in about 10 seconds. Of course, by the time the Borg cubes entered visual range, it may have been less than 2 light-years, contrary to what I posted earlier. The Borg cubes pass Voyager about 10 to 15 seconds later.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2006-12-06 06:54pm
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As Trek ships are in 'visual range' of objects going FTL fairly regularly I think we can assume we are NOT talking about simple cameras.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2006-12-07 12:23am
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Well, no, of course not. Simple physics makes it impossible. My point was merely that the Feds found some way to get visual images from light-years away.


Last edited by Darth Judas on 2006-12-07 01:12am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2006-12-07 12:36am
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In this scholia, "visual range" may represent the point beyond which there would not be sufficient data collected to interpolate a computer-reconstructed representation of objects at any appreciable level of detail.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2006-12-07 01:14am
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That is a possibility. However, all in all we simply do not have enough information to state it one way or the other. The only thing we know for certain is that Fed visual scanners can display objects that are light-years away.


Last edited by Darth Judas on 2006-12-07 03:57am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2006-12-07 03:04am
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I checked the relevant on-screen dialog in Unification Part I and the only thing changed from the quoted online script was a change from 'incalculable' to 'immeasurable' which we can safely call unimportant.

So no mention of Spock's image being from a starship scanner across the neutral zone.

Edit: I can provide an audio recording if anyone wants proof.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2006-12-07 03:58am
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The Silence and I wrote:
I checked the relevant on-screen dialog in Unification Part I and the only thing changed from the quoted online script was a change from 'incalculable' to 'immeasurable' which we can safely call unimportant.

So no mention of Spock's image being from a starship scanner across the neutral zone.

Edit: I can provide an audio recording if anyone wants proof.


I don't require proof, as I'm certain that you're correct. But I would suggest that you post it anyways, just to be certain.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2006-12-07 10:20am
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The Silence and I wrote:
I checked the relevant on-screen dialog in Unification Part I and the only thing changed from the quoted online script was a change from 'incalculable' to 'immeasurable' which we can safely call unimportant.

So no mention of Spock's image being from a starship scanner across the neutral zone.

Edit: I can provide an audio recording if anyone wants proof.


I believe you. Been quite a while since I've watched the episode. But I'm still reasonably confident the context is a Starship sensor sweep, quite possibly a Federation spy ship (though they may well call it a 'science vessel' or something) specifically configured for this kind of work.

Frankly if it was taken by agents on the planet or something I would expect them to say THAT rather then 'long range sensor' which has always (as far as I know) been associated with starship sensor arrays, never any kind of personal or ground unit or some such. But I can appreciate the element of uncertainty.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2006-12-07 10:27am
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Darth Judas wrote:
That is a possibility. However, all in all we simply do not have enough information to state it one way or the other.


Umm... "Peak Performance"... viewscreen image of Romulan Warbird constructed from spoofed sensor data...



"This is supposed to be a happy occasion... Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who."
-- The King of Swamp Castle, Monty Python and the Holy Grail

"Nothing of consequence happened today. " -- Diary of King George III, July 4, 1776

"This is not bad; this is a conspiracy to remove happiness from existence. It seeks to wrap its hedgehog hand around the still beating heart of the personification of good and squeeze until it is stilled."
-- Chuck Sonnenburg on Voyager's "Elogium"

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2006-12-07 11:26am
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Darth Judas wrote:
That is a possibility. However, all in all we simply do not have enough information to state it one way or the other. The only thing we know for certain is that Fed visual scanners can display objects that are light-years away.


No. The only thing we know is that when something can be seen on the viewscreen, it's considered "visual range." And we know that the viewscreen is a computer-generated image based on what Ted's saying about Peak Performance.

You're asserting that the viewscreen uses "visual scanners," but you haven't provided any evidence for that. At best, you're using the fact that the images displayed are photorealistic as your evidence that the image is constructed using purely optics, but we already know that Federation computers can generate photorealistic images (the holodeck).



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2006-12-07 11:42am
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Darth Judas wrote:
That is a possibility. However, all in all we simply do not have enough information to state it one way or the other. The only thing we know for certain is that Fed visual scanners can display objects that are light-years away.

Wrong. We know for certain that Fed viewscreens can display images of objects that are actually light-years away. Your inference that this is actual visual scanning is absolutely preposterous since the light image would take years to reach them. At best, it's based on some kind of FTL scanning system, which would not use visible light and would therefore not produce that kind of image directly. It must be going through a computer interpretative layer at some point.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2006-12-07 11:48am
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The Silence and I wrote:
So no mention of Spock's image being from a starship scanner across the neutral zone.

And yet it's impossible for this image to be actual visual scanning because we know plenty about the characteristics of light and atmospheric haze alone would make that image impossible to collect from orbit, never mind light years away.

The fact that no one specifically mentions a mechanism does not mean that the mechanism is not necessary in order to explain something. If someone doesn't mention satellites when talking about a radio transmission far over the horizon, does this mean there is no need for them, even though the radio transmission wouldn't work without them?

The whole process of theorizing rational explanations for things necessitates hypotheses about mechanisms which may or may not be explicitly described by onscreen characters.



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"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2006-12-07 03:06pm
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Federation sensors can identify "life signs", which presumably represent a combination of chemicals, electrochemical activity, and other phenomena that fall in a known range of parameters. "Life sign" detection is usually effective for locating "carbon-based life-forms" like humanoids and terrestrial animals and plants; it is far less effective at detecting exotic life forms such as the silicon-based organisms in "Home Soil".



"This is supposed to be a happy occasion... Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who."
-- The King of Swamp Castle, Monty Python and the Holy Grail

"Nothing of consequence happened today. " -- Diary of King George III, July 4, 1776

"This is not bad; this is a conspiracy to remove happiness from existence. It seeks to wrap its hedgehog hand around the still beating heart of the personification of good and squeeze until it is stilled."
-- Chuck Sonnenburg on Voyager's "Elogium"

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2006-12-07 03:30pm
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Darth Wong wrote:
The Silence and I wrote:
So no mention of Spock's image being from a starship scanner across the neutral zone.

And yet it's impossible for this image to be actual visual scanning because we know plenty about the characteristics of light and atmospheric haze alone would make that image impossible to collect from orbit, never mind light years away.
a) I thought distortion correction would allow such an image to be taken from orbit?
b) the way your post is worded confuses me. It sounds like you are refuting what I said, but you seem to be supporting the same conclusion I am?

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The fact that no one specifically mentions a mechanism does not mean that the mechanism is not necessary in order to explain something. If someone doesn't mention satellites when talking about a radio transmission far over the horizon, does this mean there is no need for them, even though the radio transmission wouldn't work without them?

The whole process of theorizing rational explanations for things necessitates hypotheses about mechanisms which may or may not be explicitly described by onscreen characters.
I think the best explanation is some kind of spy system in place on or very near Romulus. As you said above gathering such a detailed image from lightyears away should be impossible, further, the dialog does not suggest strongly that this did happen in that manner, and even if the Federation COULD do that, what kind of power imbalance would that make?! The Romulans would be extremely unhappy...



"Do not worry, I have prepared something for just such an emergency."

"You're prepared for a giant monster made entirely of nulls stomping around Mainframe?!"

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"Uh... lucky guess?"

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2006-12-07 03:37pm
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Darth Judas wrote:
I don't require proof, as I'm certain that you're correct. But I would suggest that you post it anyways, just to be certain.
Very well.

Good for 7 days, or the first 100 downloads. PM me if the link dies.



"Do not worry, I have prepared something for just such an emergency."

"You're prepared for a giant monster made entirely of nulls stomping around Mainframe?!"

"That is correct!"

"How do you plan for that?"

"Uh... lucky guess?"

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2006-12-07 03:43pm
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The Silence and I wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
The Silence and I wrote:
So no mention of Spock's image being from a starship scanner across the neutral zone.

And yet it's impossible for this image to be actual visual scanning because we know plenty about the characteristics of light and atmospheric haze alone would make that image impossible to collect from orbit, never mind light years away.

a) I thought distortion correction would allow such an image to be taken from orbit?

I haven't seen the episode for quite a while, but there seemed to be far too much image detail for that. If my memory is wrong, let me know.
Quote:
b) the way your post is worded confuses me. It sounds like you are refuting what I said, but you seem to be supporting the same conclusion I am?

Sorry, I'm not being very clear. I'm trying to say that we don't really need them to say what the source of the picture is.
Quote:
I think the best explanation is some kind of spy system in place on or very near Romulus.

To be honest, I don't even think a spy system is necessary. The angle of the camera shot made it look to me as if it was taken by a building-mounted security camera on Romulus. It's not like we saw the top of Spock's head; it was from a low angle and his face was clearly visible IIRC. Espionage tends to rely on informants more than James Bond-style spies or fancy technology.
Quote:
As you said above gathering such a detailed image from lightyears away should be impossible, further, the dialog does not suggest strongly that this did happen in that manner, and even if the Federation COULD do that, what kind of power imbalance would that make?! The Romulans would be extremely unhappy...

Not to mention making us wonder why they can sometimes have trouble finding a single individual on a planetary surface even when they're sitting in orbit over that planet.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2006-12-07 04:27pm
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Darth Wong wrote:
I haven't seen the episode for quite a while, but there seemed to be far too much image detail for that. If my memory is wrong, let me know.
Well I don't claim to know the limits of distortion correction now or in the 24th century, but whatever those limits may be these are the images in question:

Before Enhancement
After Enhancement



"Do not worry, I have prepared something for just such an emergency."

"You're prepared for a giant monster made entirely of nulls stomping around Mainframe?!"

"That is correct!"

"How do you plan for that?"

"Uh... lucky guess?"

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2006-12-07 05:36pm
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It seems to me that it was a Federation spy tapping into the Romulan security cameras rather than an operative filming the crowd. Can't see why one couldn't insert a spyeware program into the Camera net to have the cameras send images from the cameras to a Federation listening post to assess the Romulon's planetary security and defences.

In the picture Spock was with that Romulon Senator so it might have been a camera near the Senate Chambers. If such it could have been a covert means of keeping an eye on what the Romulan Senate was doing.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2006-12-07 06:23pm
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Isolder74 wrote:
It seems to me that it was a Federation spy tapping into the Romulan security cameras rather than an operative filming the crowd. Can't see why one couldn't insert a spyeware program into the Camera net to have the cameras send images from the cameras to a Federation listening post to assess the Romulon's planetary security and defences.


Inserting a spyware program into the security network would probably be a lot more difficult than bribing a disaffected security guard with access to the security network to provide the image.



"This is supposed to be a happy occasion... Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who."
-- The King of Swamp Castle, Monty Python and the Holy Grail

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"This is not bad; this is a conspiracy to remove happiness from existence. It seeks to wrap its hedgehog hand around the still beating heart of the personification of good and squeeze until it is stilled."
-- Chuck Sonnenburg on Voyager's "Elogium"

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