Data vs Odo

DoctorPhanan · Post by **DoctorPhanan** » 2006-02-01 03:09am

Data and Odo are both unarmed, and are in a fight to submission. Since this fight is not to the death neither of them should have any reason to not participate, but just to cover all the bases, neither of them feels any moral dillemma against fighting, and in fact feels perfectly justified in their actions. So who wins in a fight? Data or Odo?

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2006-02-01 03:21am

Is not Odo like the T-1000 ? If he is as durable as that I think unless Data gets extremely lucky like Arnie in Terminator 2 he is going to lose.

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2006-02-01 04:02am

Odo liquifies and looks for Data's off switch. He can't be harmed with HtH attacks in liquid form, so I don't see how Data can win this.

Spetulhu · Post by **Spetulhu** » 2006-02-01 04:26am

Collect liquid in jar. Throw out of airlock?

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2006-02-01 05:17am

Spetulhu wrote:Collect liquid in jar. Throw out of airlock?

No airlock was mentioned, I don't see how you can get Odo into a jar unless he cooperates, and Changelings can operate in space (the one guy from Chimaera was even warp-capable).

Raxmei · Post by **Raxmei** » 2006-02-01 06:38am

The Search, part 2

FEMALE SHAPE-SHIFTER
The solids feared our metamorphic
abilities. We were hunted, beaten,
killed. Finally we arrived here.
And here...
(a beat)
... safe in our isolation we made our
home.

It is possible to beat a Changeling and have enough of an effect to be worth mentioning.

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2006-02-01 06:49am

Raxmei wrote:The Search, part 2
FEMALE SHAPE-SHIFTER
The solids feared our metamorphic
abilities. We were hunted, beaten,
killed. Finally we arrived here.
And here...
(a beat)
... safe in our isolation we made our
home.
It is possible to beat a Changeling and have enough of an effect to be worth mentioning.

And Odo got knocked out once while in human form, IIRC; MU Odo was even phasorised. There *are* ways to hurt and kill a Changeling, but the ones shown involve either a surprise attack on a solid Changeling, or using energy weapons or radiation/bioweapons. Data only has his fists.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-02-01 09:42am

The assumption that an amorphous object cannot be harmed by any level of physical violence is a "no limits" fallacy. The amorphous mass in this case has much higher viscosity than water, and it is held together by some sort of surface tension. A sufficiently violent impact should theoretically overcome its binding surface tension and cause pieces of the amorphous mass to be separated from the main entity.

Of course, if Odo knows about Data's off-switch then it should be a rather short fight.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2006-02-01 09:47am

Bounty wrote:
And Odo got knocked out once while in human form, IIRC; MU Odo was even phasorised. There *are* ways to hurt and kill a Changeling, but the ones shown involve either a surprise attack on a solid Changeling, or using energy weapons or radiation/bioweapons. Data only has his fists.

You may be thinking of when O'Brien clobbered him in "The Assignment" but Odo was biologically human then ie) he had no shapeshifting powers a they were removed by the great link.

TimothyC · Post by **TimothyC** » 2006-02-01 11:32am

Darth Wong wrote:The assumption that an amorphous object cannot be harmed by any level of physical violence is a "no limits" fallacy. The amorphous mass in this case has much higher viscosity than water, and it is held together by some sort of surface tension. A sufficiently violent impact should theoretically overcome its binding surface tension and cause pieces of the amorphous mass to be separated from the main entity.

Of course, if Odo knows about Data's off-switch then it should be a rather short fight.

And We've seen little bits of Odo come back together after being separated. (The Die is Cast), so even if Data does punch Odo hard enough, it still might not be enough to take him out.
[edit]: Of Course this also means that surface tension might not be the only thing holding Odo together, although it could be. We don't know enough about Odo's makeup to determine if Data could provide the energy needed to break up Odo.

Data's one winning move is that if he can make it 16-18 hours without being shut off, Odo has to liquify (for an unknown period of time) or he gets all flaky, and Data wins by default.

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2006-02-01 11:36am

Data's one winning move is that if he can make it 16-18 hours without being shut off, Odo has to liquify (for an unknown period of time) or he gets all flaky, and Data wins by default.

Odo can still move while liquid. It doesn't make him defenseless.

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2006-02-01 01:38pm

You may be thinking of when O'Brien clobbered him in "The Assignment"

Odo was KOed by a falling rock in Season 2 (the one with Croden and the "changeling key").

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2006-02-01 01:40pm

In a past episode of DS9 didn't a Changling get electrocuted, killing it. Data is an android and surely has some form of electricity in his body. Kentucky Fried Changling and a straw anyone?

Sharp-kun · Post by **Sharp-kun** » 2006-02-01 01:41pm

Lord Pounder wrote:In a past episode of DS9 didn't a Changling get electrocuted, killing it.

If it was the one Odo killed I believe it was thrown against the warp core, which had bad shit happening to it. Its been a while since I saw the episode but I recall it being more than just electrocution (or if it was it was far more current than Data likely uses).

Star-Blighter · Post by **Star-Blighter** » 2006-02-01 02:03pm

DarthWong wrote:The assumption that an amorphous object cannot be harmed by any level of physical violence is a "no limits" fallacy. The amorphous mass in this case has much higher viscosity than water, and it is held together by some sort of surface tension. A sufficiently violent impact should theoretically overcome its binding surface tension and cause pieces of the amorphous mass to be separated from the main entity.

Of course, if Odo knows about Data's off-switch then it should be a rather short fight.

The question I think everyone should be asking in regards to Odo is this:

Is every part of Odo a whole unto itself at the molecular level?

If so then a seperated portion of the "amorphous" entity could feasably seek out the main mass and attempt to reintegrate into itself.

This however requires information on Odo's actual physiology. He would need to be capable of rapid regeneration and have the ability to convert additional mass into more "Odo" in a rediculously short amount of time if significant parts are rendered inert or can't be reabsorbed. Odo's physiology should naturally preclude the normal requirements of conventional organs and other macro structures that would need to retain a certain degree of solidity and structure to operate, but this is not confirmed.

Once again, ALOT more info is needed on the molecular composition and general physiology on changlings to establish rough parameters for their ability to take damage. As such we are limited to what canon examples show us and I am not familiar enough with the material to speculate further. I can only make general assumptions and the shakiest of observations, which follow:

I would hazard a guess that flamethrowers, high-explosives, biological agents, and any other area enveloping weapon would be suitable to actually kill the entire mass in one go.

If Odo has similar damage resistance and durability as, say the "Thing" against physical impactors then he would have very formidable resistance to HtH damage however and could quite possibly disable Data if he has any good examples of strength and speed to go by.

I think I might post a Data vs Thing thread. It has peeked my interest.

Have at thee.

Dennis Toy · Post by **Dennis Toy** » 2006-02-01 09:48pm

Remember "To Die is Cast" when Odo was interrogated by Garak? Garak used a quantum status field to hold odo into shape and cause him to fall to pieces. This also caused Odo great agony in the process. I wonder if data could capture him in one and hold him there until he was brought back to starfleet

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-02-01 09:59pm

A "quantum stasis field"? And of course, Odo could still move around and talk, right?

Post by **Surlethe** » 2006-02-01 10:13pm

Star-Blighter wrote:The question I think everyone should be asking in regards to Odo is this:

Is every part of Odo a whole unto itself at the molecular level?

If so then a seperated portion of the "amorphous" entity could feasably seek out the main mass and attempt to reintegrate into itself.

What does this mean? How can individual molecules possess any sort of innate drive to return to the main mass?

Enigma · Post by **Enigma** » 2006-02-01 11:00pm

Didn't Data disable his off switch? If so then it'll be who will outlast the other.

Dennis Toy · Post by **Dennis Toy** » 2006-02-01 11:14pm

A "quantum stasis field"? And of course, Odo could still move around and talk, right?

yes and Data could take advantage of this and take out Odo with his hands or with a phaser.

skotos · Post by **skotos** » 2006-02-01 11:27pm

A "quantum stasis field"? And of course, Odo could still move around and talk, right?

yes and Data could take advantage of this and take out Odo with his hands or with a phaser.

Well, Data wouldn't have a phaser, since the original post specified that they are unarmed. As for a "quantum stasis field", where would Data get one? Out of his ass?

As for the original question, do we even know what would cause either Data or Odo to submit? Without knowing this (or without additional victory conditions) the question is unanswerable.

The Silence and I · Post by **The Silence and I** » 2006-02-01 11:28pm

Nice pick, I don't think there is a clear winner.

I doubt Odo knows about Data's off switch, and it isn't the kind of thing one is likely to discover during HtH combat (being under the shoulder blade which is under the shirt). So I would not count on the easy win for Odo. But then Data probably cannot harm a fully defensive Odo.

The question then, is can Data harm a solid Odo--since Odo must become solid to some degree if he is to subdue Data--and can a solid Odo in any form harm/subdue Data?

Data can lift close to a ton of rock at bare minimum and bends very thick metals on occasion. His durability to blunt trauma is proportional to his strength as far as we have been told and have seen. What kind of physical feats has Odo performed? I think other changlings are exempt from this since Odo is less capable than his kin?

Without some benchmarks this is a stalemate--even if Data cannot restrain Odo, if Odo lacks the strength to stop the android no one wins.

Star-Blighter · Post by **Star-Blighter** » 2006-02-02 01:03am

Surlethe wrote:
Star-Blighter wrote:The question I think everyone should be asking in regards to Odo is this:

Is every part of Odo a whole unto itself at the molecular level?

If so then a seperated portion of the "amorphous" entity could feasably seek out the main mass and attempt to reintegrate into itself.
What does this mean? How can individual molecules possess any sort of innate drive to return to the main mass?

I had a brain-fart. Please substitute molecular with cellular and it will make more sense.

Dennis Toy · Post by **Dennis Toy** » 2006-02-02 01:40am

Quote:
Quote:
A "quantum stasis field"? And of course, Odo could still move around and talk, right?

yes and Data could take advantage of this and take out Odo with his hands or with a phaser.

Well, Data wouldn't have a phaser, since the original post specified that they are unarmed. As for a "quantum stasis field", where would Data get one? Out of his ass?

he could construct one based on declassified romulan files and then wait until Odo begins to degenerate.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2006-02-02 01:51am

Odo linked with Laz, so he knows how to become a vapor and fire, both of which would be forms a barehanded odo couldn't hurt. Heck, Odo could get INSIDE Data.