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SirNitram wrote:

Metrion Cascade wrote:

SirNitram wrote: Actually, John Ordover has specifically stated that only live-action Star Trek is canon. Provisions are given to two novels(Not tech manuals) and one episode of the Animated Series. Nothing else. Thus my skepticism.

I also found a picture of the Prometheus in Endgame. No sign of it being noticable larger, though it was crap for scaling.

Why John Ordover's word instead of, say, Roddenberry's (just for example)?

Mostly because Paramount owns the Star Trek franchise and thus we take their word on what 'canon' is. Same reason we take Lucasfilm's word on what's canon. If we go with Roddenbury, of course, there's no question at all: Neither the Sovereign or the Prometheus exist, so it's a no-score draw.

I'll listen to Paramount until they start contradicting themselves and presenting something I can't treat as a single canon.

And a question about canon - if (as you stated a while back) Enterprise is the timeline created by Picard's actions in FC, why are most of the differences ones that Picard couldn't have caused (like the Xindi, the Suliban, Vulcans who can initiate mind melds becoming a minority)?

You see, B&B's Bozon Radiation infected the Earth during First Contact, and over time this radiation built up and released in an FTL Particle Of The Week Burst...

Which interacted with some Chronitons left over from the Defiant's trip to Earth in the Gabriel Bell episode, causing the particles to shoot backward and forward in time and alter history. Of course!

SirNitram wrote:Your picture has exceeded daily limit use, m'friend.

Still, a one fourth increase in volume is not a small increase!

Actually it is about 7-8% alteration in each dimension. That is almost impossible to spot in the material usualy available. Indeed it would be hard to spot even if one had accurate scale linedrawings of both Prom-A & Prom-B side by side unless there was some obvious alteration iin the design.

Chris OFarrell wrote:Oh and I would also point to the Promethesus's in the Enterprise episode Atzri Prime. They were also non seperating version and from what I see they were firing quite a few more phasers then the seperating version had on its hull.

They used Prometheuses in Enterprise!?!?! Have they been sniffing Cronoton fumes again?

CJvR wrote:

Chris OFarrell wrote:Oh and I would also point to the Promethesus's in the Enterprise episode Atzri Prime. They were also non seperating version and from what I see they were firing quite a few more phasers then the seperating version had on its hull.

They used Prometheuses in Enterprise!?!?! Have they been sniffing Cronoton fumes again?

They went forwards to the 25/6th century, sadly- about 150+ years after TNG Era anyway, the episode where we saw the Enterprise-J... and they had Nova Classes, Prometheus Class and ... a dauntless class in a battle. b&b bastards.

It may be that the Prometheus proved to be a reliable design like the Mirand so it was in service 150 years later.

SirNitram wrote:Your picture has exceeded daily limit use, m'friend.

Still, a one fourth increase in volume is not a small increase!

Crud! Stupid Village People, err, Photos site

No matter. It was a wanky vidcap anyway

But back to the thread topic: assume we did give Sternbach's "bigger Prometheus" musings serious consideration. Further assume we accept that the ship in "Endgame" was in fact a Prometheus Mk. II.

Now, I'm pretty sure that interview was conducted a long time, perhaps over a year, before "Nemesis" came out. And is it not the case that the Enterprise-E sported a number of new weapons emplacements in that film?

evilcat4000 wrote:It may be that the Prometheus proved to be a reliable design like the Mirand so it was in service 150 years later.

Perhaps. Apparently Novas and Vor'cha-class cruisers are reliable beyond what we might expect, too!

I wonder, though...

Given the fact we see a Dauntless fighting the sphere builders, what are the odds that Daniels was shining Capt. Archer on, and the whole "battle" was an illusion? (I should add, it needn't be a particularly elaborate one, at that. A few viewscreens, a set and/or holodeck would do the trick.) The Dauntless, we all know, IS an alien design.

I doubt the powers behind ENT had any such thing in mind, but other strange things about the battle and Enterprise-J, like its Cardassianesque interior, made me suspicious.

It's wildly speculative, but I wouldn't put it past B&B to make Daniels a villain, perhaps even the Suliban's Future Guy. It wouldn't be too far from their idea of "dramatic twist"

seanrobertson wrote:But back to the thread topic: assume we did give Sternbach's "bigger Prometheus" musings serious consideration. Further assume we accept that the ship in "Endgame" was in fact a Prometheus Mk. II.

Now, I'm pretty sure that interview was conducted a long time, perhaps over a year, before "Nemesis" came out. And is it not the case that the Enterprise-E sported a number of new weapons emplacements in that film?

Well even an enlarged Prometheus would have problems with the Soverigns, particulary if they were upgraded with even more weaponry. The Soverigns are a bit to big and to contemporary to handle even for a dedicated warship likr the Prometheus.

I understand that Ent-E wasn't to impressive in Nemesis so perhaps I overrate the Soverign somewhat.

CJvR wrote: Well even an enlarged Prometheus would have problems with the Soverigns, particulary if they were upgraded with even more weaponry. The Soverigns are a bit to big and to contemporary to handle even for a dedicated warship likr the Prometheus.

Exactly my point. Since the E-E supposedly benefitted from a healthy weapons upgrade, Sternbach's earlier assessment of a Sovereign vs. Prometheus could be out-of-date...

...assuming, of course, you give his statements much credence in the first place. (I'm usually a sucker for giving nice people the benefit of the doubt, and Sternbach is a genuinely nice guy. Nonetheless, I don't see that his word carries any weight in a serious discussion.)

I understand that Ent-E wasn't to impressive in Nemesis so perhaps I overrate the Soverign somewhat.

She performed well enough, I think. The main problem in fighting Scimitar was hitting the damn thing in the first place, IIRC.

seanrobertson wrote:Exactly my point. Since the E-E supposedly benefitted from a healthy weapons upgrade, Sternbach's earlier assessment of a Sovereign vs. Prometheus could be out-of-date...

...assuming, of course, you give his statements much credence in the first place. (I'm usually a sucker for giving nice people the benefit of the doubt, and Sternbach is a genuinely nice guy. Nonetheless, I don't see that his word carries any weight in a serious discussion.)

Well for firepower on a ton for ton basis the Prometheus would still be ahead, Prom-B if it went ahead without the MVAM even more so. Hauling along science and diplomatic facilities to a shootout will do you little good. Prom's diplomatic facilities consists of armed torpedos and charged phaser arrays. Much more useful against Dominion and Borgs.

CJvR wrote:

seanrobertson wrote:Exactly my point. Since the E-E supposedly benefitted from a healthy weapons upgrade, Sternbach's earlier assessment of a Sovereign vs. Prometheus could be out-of-date...

...assuming, of course, you give his statements much credence in the first place. (I'm usually a sucker for giving nice people the benefit of the doubt, and Sternbach is a genuinely nice guy. Nonetheless, I don't see that his word carries any weight in a serious discussion.)

Well for firepower on a ton for ton basis the Prometheus would still be ahead, Prom-B if it went ahead without the MVAM even more so. Hauling along science and diplomatic facilities to a shootout will do you little good. Prom's diplomatic facilities consists of armed torpedos and charged phaser arrays. Much more useful against Dominion and Borgs.

Agreed. I think the Prometheus is far more maneuverable, much more powerful, and an all around better ship. With the MVAM, they would run circles around a Sovereign class ship, dodging it's weapons while at the same time every part of the ship fired their weapons.

Fleet Admiral Thompson wrote:-snip-

Newsflash!

You're an idiot!

Let's examine your argument peice by peice.

Agreed. I think the Prometheus is far more maneuverable

Certainly true, but that's probably not going to play a huge role in this battle- keep in mind that the Sovereign has excellent weapons coverage and can fire on the Prommie no matter whcih direction she comes from.

much more powerful

Clear bullshit. The Sovereign mounts 15 phaser arrays, all larger and more powerful than the Prommie's mounts, and 9 torpedo tubes, one of which fires quantum rounds- compared to the MVAM Prommie which mounts 18 weaker phasers and a mere 3 torpedo tubes. She's outgunned.

-edit- and about 25-30% larger, at 685x250x88 meters compared to the Prommie's 415x163x64

With the MVAM, they would run circles around a Sovereign class ship, dodging it's weapons while at the same time every part of the ship fired their weapons

I don't think I need to point out the obvious stupidity and inefficiency of the MVAM system; even if the fact it needs to mount 3x the command facilities, 3x the life support systems, so on and so forth, I will also point out that the Sovereign can focus fire on just one peice of the Prommie at a time, and the second one of the peices dies, the Prommie goes from being simply outgunned to being totally outclassed.

As for your claims that it would be a hard target for the Sovereign's weapons, I will point out that sovvies have had no problems in the past targetting and destroying much smaller Jem'hadar bugs.

-edit- weapons numbers from Alyeska's post, leeching off his research and knowledge, hope no one minds.

I once asked Rick Sternbach this very question: he basically said that a Sovereign would win, but with an improved, larger Prometheus, it would be much closer.

Sorry though: can't find the link to where it was published for the life of me.

Thirdfain wrote:-edit- and about 25-30% larger, at 685x250x88 meters compared to the Prommie's 415x163x64

That should give the Sov a size advantage of 3-1 not 25-30%. Even if we accept that Prom is a more compact design the Sov should still have a 2-1 size advantage. Against older designs like the Nebula or the Romulan relics Prom would have an edge but against a ship of the same generation intended to do some serious fighting on it's own (unlike the Galaxy and Nebula with their symbolic weaponry) it would not be enough. Even if Prom got to be 30% bigger without MVAM it still wouldn't be enough.

Agreed. I think the Prometheus is far more maneuverable, much more powerful, and an all around better ship.

The Sovergein is extremely agile. Without MVAM I doubt the Prometheus could match it in the speed and agility department.

With the MVAM, they would run circles around a Sovereign class ship, dodging it's weapons while at the same time every part of the ship fired their weapons.

The Sovergein has excellent phaser coverage. It also has a quantum torpedo turret so evading Sovergeins weapons would be very difficult.

evilcat4000 wrote:

Agreed. I think the Prometheus is far more maneuverable, much more powerful, and an all around better ship.

The Sovergein is extremely agile. Without MVAM I doubt the Prometheus could match it in the speed and agility department.

With the MVAM, they would run circles around a Sovereign class ship, dodging it's weapons while at the same time every part of the ship fired their weapons.

The Sovergein has excellent phaser coverage. It also has a quantum torpedo turret so evading Sovergeins weapons would be very difficult.

I definetly agree with both of your statements. It is true that the Sovereign has good phaser coverage, and the torpedoes do track ships to some degree, so the Prometheus would likely take heavy damage. Also remember that when merged, the Prometheus is 415 meters long, so I think each section would be much smaller and faster than when merged.

Thirdfain wrote:

Fleet Admiral Thompson wrote:-snip-

Newsflash!

You're an idiot!

Let's examine your argument peice by peice.

Agreed. I think the Prometheus is far more maneuverable

Certainly true, but that's probably not going to play a huge role in this battle- keep in mind that the Sovereign has excellent weapons coverage and can fire on the Prommie no matter whcih direction she comes from.

much more powerful

Clear bullshit. The Sovereign mounts 15 phaser arrays, all larger and more powerful than the Prommie's mounts, and 9 torpedo tubes, one of which fires quantum rounds- compared to the MVAM Prommie which mounts 18 weaker phasers and a mere 3 torpedo tubes. She's outgunned.

-edit- and about 25-30% larger, at 685x250x88 meters compared to the Prommie's 415x163x64

With the MVAM, they would run circles around a Sovereign class ship, dodging it's weapons while at the same time every part of the ship fired their weapons

I don't think I need to point out the obvious stupidity and inefficiency of the MVAM system; even if the fact it needs to mount 3x the command facilities, 3x the life support systems, so on and so forth, I will also point out that the Sovereign can focus fire on just one peice of the Prommie at a time, and the second one of the peices dies, the Prommie goes from being simply outgunned to being totally outclassed.

As for your claims that it would be a hard target for the Sovereign's weapons, I will point out that sovvies have had no problems in the past targetting and destroying much smaller Jem'hadar bugs.

-edit- weapons numbers from Alyeska's post, leeching off his research and knowledge, hope no one minds.

For your claims about the firepower, you are wrong. The standard Sovereign supports 12 type XII phaser arrays and 3 photon/quantum torpedo launchers. The Prometheus, when merged, supports 13 type XII phaser arrays, and 3 torpedo launchers. even when merged, it outguns the Sovereign by one array. Not that that would make much of a difference, but I just thought I'd point that out. As for your claims about the MVAM, the three ships seperated are much smaller than the merged vessel, and are likely more maneuverable as well. Each section can be controlled by the bridge, each section is warp capable, and each section has every system that operates independently of the bridge section.

Fleet Admiral Thompson wrote: For your claims about the firepower, you are wrong. The standard Sovereign supports 12 type XII phaser arrays and 3 photon/quantum torpedo launchers. The Prometheus, when merged, supports 13 type XII phaser arrays, and 3 torpedo launchers. even when merged, it outguns the Sovereign by one array. Not that that would make much of a difference, but I just thought I'd point that out. As for your claims about the MVAM, the three ships seperated are much smaller than the merged vessel, and are likely more maneuverable as well. Each section can be controlled by the bridge, each section is warp capable, and each section has every system that operates independently of the bridge section.

Hey dickhead! You're quoting non canon sources, fuck off!

For your claims about the firepower, you are wrong. The standard Sovereign supports 12 type XII phaser arrays and 3 photon/quantum torpedo launchers. The Prometheus, when merged, supports 13 type XII phaser arrays, and 3 torpedo launchers. even when merged, it outguns the Sovereign by one array. Not that that would make much of a difference, but I just thought I'd point that out. As for your claims about the MVAM, the three ships seperated are much smaller than the merged vessel, and are likely more maneuverable as well. Each section can be controlled by the bridge, each section is warp capable, and each section has every system that operates independently of the bridge section.

It's called quoting sources, and addressing canon. I'll take Alyeska's word on this, unless you can assemble a tidy fistful of evidence to support your claims I'm afraid I'll count this as being untrue.

Oh, and you still don't grasp the inherent disadvantage of the MVAM system- the peices aren't any faster and more maneuverable then JemHadar bugs, which Sovvies happily blast to peices, and each peice needs to use up much of it's space on extraneous systems which the Sovvie only requires one of.

Fleet Admiral Thompson wrote:For your claims about the firepower, you are wrong.

This I gotta see.

The standard Sovereign supports 12 type XII phaser arrays and 3 photon/quantum torpedo launchers.

BZZT! The correct answer is 12 Type-12 phasers, 1 quantum torpedo turret, and 4 photon torpedo launchers. The Sovereign II design (which is the new standard) sports 16 Type-12 phasers, 1 quantum torpedo turret, and 8 photon torpedo launchers.

The Prometheus, when merged, supports 13 type XII phaser arrays, and 3 torpedo launchers.

BZZT! The correct answer is 12 Type-12 phasers and 2 torpedo launchers.

even when merged, it outguns the Sovereign by one array.

BZZT! The Sovereign I has an equal number of phasers and three more launchers then the Prometheus. The Sovereign II has 4 more phasers and 7 more torpedo launchers. Furthermore you are ignoring the fact that larger arays pack more firepower. The three primary arrays on the Sovereign (one top and two bottom) are significantly larger then anything on the Prometheus and seriously outgun it.

Not that that would make much of a difference, but I just thought I'd point that out.

Actualy it makes a serious difference. The Sovereign II has double the torpedo launchers on just the front or rear alone. It also has a serious phaser advantage seeing as the Sovereign sports larger arrays then the Prometheus.

As for your claims about the MVAM, the three ships seperated are much smaller than the merged vessel, and are likely more maneuverable as well.

Irrelevent. They will be just as easy to hit and easier to kill. Now when the Sovereign puts just 1/3 the firepower on target it can take out 1/3 of the Prometheus's firepower. Had the Prometheus been latched together it would not have suffered such catastrophic loss of power.

Each section can be controlled by the bridge, each section is warp capable, and each section has every system that operates independently of the bridge section.

All of which makes the ship inferior in combat.

definetly agree with both of your statements. It is true that the Sovereign has good phaser coverage, and the torpedoes do track ships to some degree, so the Prometheus would likely take heavy damage.

Destroyed is the term not heavy damage.

Also remember that when merged, the Prometheus is 415 meters long, so I think each section would be much smaller and faster than when merged.

Speed and agility would not very useful against the Sovergein. The Sovergein is agile enough to track the Prometheus and her weapons have excellent coverage.

Dunno if you still needed screenshots from Endgame, but here's four of them if you still do. Sorry about the quality, they are screenshots from a divX version and I only spent about 30 seconds getting screenshots and uploading them.

http://nzifc.nzpages.net/endgame/

Enjoy,

Fleet Admiral Thompson wrote:Each section can be controlled by the bridge, each section is warp capable, and each section has every system that operates independently of the bridge section.

And each section have only 1/3 of the total power of the Prometheus or a similar ship of the same size for their shields. That's not bad, that's a desaster against a ship like a Sovi.

evilcat4000 wrote:

definetly agree with both of your statements. It is true that the Sovereign has good phaser coverage, and the torpedoes do track ships to some degree, so the Prometheus would likely take heavy damage.

Destroyed is the term not heavy damage.

Also remember that when merged, the Prometheus is 415 meters long, so I think each section would be much smaller and faster than when merged.

Speed and agility would not very useful against the Sovergein. The Sovergein is agile enough to track the Prometheus and her weapons have excellent coverage.

How does agility affect weapons targeting?

Fleet Admiral Thompson, respond to my post or concede that you were wrong.