Why do people think Voyager isn't very good?

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seanrobertson
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Re: Why do people think Voyager isn't very good?

Post by seanrobertson »

DaveJB wrote:The "Space Vampires" thing wasn't a huge problem in of itself to me - the faster assimilation method was actually a fairly logical evolution of the assimilation process that we had previously seen (even if it did feel like it had come out of nowhere), and if we're going to rag on STFC for changing the Borg, let's not forget that BoBW had already altered them from how they were depicted in Q Who.
Agreed. I never had a problem with them assimilating people as well as technology. Besides, "Q Who?" never established that the Borg acquired drones by means other than assimilation. Some might still think Riker's speculation that the "Borg appear to be born 'human'*" means the Borg reproduced themselves, which is bogus. The baby we saw's easily reconciled as a newly assimilated tot in a maturation chamber, which was seen and discussed a couple of times in VGR.

*Ehhh ... Human? :? :lol:

Some others have pointed to "Q Who?" as some kind of awkward "proof" that the Borg were only interested in technology. Maybe that's how the Borg were envisioned when the episode was written. Then again, who cares about that shit anymore? Things obviously changed, but more importantly, nothing in that show demonstrated they were disinterested in assimilating lifeforms. Indeed, in the following series, they almost always prioritized assimilating new technologies (or even the vague promise thereof, as was the case with two otherwise primitive species mentioned in "The Omega Directive"). It seems that people are only assimilated if they're physically remarkable, offer sufficient resistance to warrant adding their "individuality" to the Collective, or if they simply need more manpower.

Another note: "First Contact" clearly established that the Queen afforded Picard a slight degree of individuality. How else could he "give himself willingly" to the Collective? This meshes nicely with the fact that we saw him doing things that we've never seen another drone do -- not while they're hooked up to the hivemind, at least (e.g., crying, mumbling "Sleep. Sleep, Data"). As such, it's little surprise that Picard was assimilated in a more deliberate manner. Even without pumping him full of nanoprobes, being slowly turned into your enemy, piece by piece, is torture enough to BREAK the fucker -- make him more susceptible to surrendering his soul. Maybe the "jab tubes into neck" approach can't be finessed?

... not that you said any such things, mind you, Dave. I reckon you'd probably say something more along the lines of what I just did. I brought those things up mostly in anticipation someone dusting off old arguments to shoot me down ;)
For me, the problem was how easy it was to defeat the Borg in Voyager. The "Scorpion" two-parter wasn't too bad, since it was made pretty clear that Voyager would probably have been destroyed or assimilated if it hadn't been for Kes pushing them away from danger. Where the Borg really went off the rails was "Dark Frontier" - the sight of the Delta Flyer casually sauntering into the Borg's biggest and most fortified installation, rescuing Seven of Nine without a hitch, and then Voyager destroying the Borg Queen's craft with the power of technobabble was IMO where the Borg threat curled up and died.
In fairness, the Flyer used some kind of cloaking technology -- a blither-blather field Seven's pop cooked up decades before -- when it approached the primary Unicomplex.

But you're right. That was pretty embarrassing. I was also wholly unimpressed with the "Type 4 Tactical Vessel's" performance against the Voyager. Sure, it whipped her, but only after a few minutes of combat. In an earlier show, a "long-range tactical vessel," a sphere many times smaller than the tacticube, had the VGR on her knees inside 30 seconds. That was even after the "One" drone had magically enhanced their defenses :|

I should also thank you for not misrepresenting things. Over the years, I've read countless people, even in this forum, go on about how the VGR "kicked the Borg's ass" on numerous occasions, including the aforementioned battle from "Unimatrix Zero." I got tired of playing the Borg Dork and correcting posters on those lies (or in many cases, just ignorance; they'd never even seen the episodes in question). The only hurfhurfTreksux! claim that irritated me more was that "Data and Worf got their 'asses kicked" by Ferengi' in 'The Last Outpost'" myth that pops up anytime Worf's compared to Neroon, Chewie, Teal'c or other badass sci-fi characters.

#1: When I think of an ass-kicking, I don't think of someone simply falling down for a moment. I can do that by myself, like when I step on a banana peel or patch of icy cement. Does that mean I kicked my own ass?

Nah, see, in my mind, "ass-kicking" usually entails a dude lying on the ground, either knocked out cold or showing some sign of a decent beating. You know, kinda like this, which I would rate a Grade A ass-kicking:



#2: Worf and Data were each holding a couple of Ferengi, who were struggling and kicking IIRC. Then that Portal thing showed up, and the ground shuddered violently for a few seconds, during which time Worf and Data fell down.

Yeah ... the Ferengi sure beat their asses, alright :lol: Let's ignore the fucking earthquake! :D
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Big Orange
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Re: Why do people think Voyager isn't very good?

Post by Big Orange »

seanrobertson wrote: It seems that people are only assimilated if they're physically remarkable,
Jeri Ryan's character was physically remarkable. *Ba-boom-tissssh* :lol:

On a more serious note I found the ending of "Dark Frontier" OK-ish; it seemed like the Delta Flyer was rushing down the subspace tunnel, it safely pulled out of it and the subspace tunnel must've started to close up as the Borg Queen's Diamond ship tried to pass through it, then got torn to shreds. "Dark Frontier" was not as good as "Drone" or "Scorpion", but at least nothing stupid happen like Janeway plugging a few buttons on the Borg Queen's control pannels then suddenly the entire Unicomplex and all the surrounding Cube ships blew up. :wink:
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Re: Why do people think Voyager isn't very good?

Post by JME2 »

Big Orange wrote:
seanrobertson wrote: It seems that people are only assimilated if they're physically remarkable,
Jeri Ryan's character was physically remarkable. *Ba-boom-tissssh*
What was it Q's son said in "Q2"? "Talk about perfection" or something like that. 8)
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ronindave
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Re: Why do people think Voyager isn't very good?

Post by ronindave »

Back to Voyager - I saw a smattering of Voyager episodes from different seasons. I remember them ranging from decent to mediocre to bad.

My favorite bad episode that I reference as to why Voyager sucked is the one where their starship was endangered of being destroyed by cheese - yes, cheese. Their cook was making cheese and its bacteria affected the ship.
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Re: Why do people think Voyager isn't very good?

Post by Iroscato »

Up until recently, I used to think Voyager was the best ST series (forgive me! I was weak!), then I got into TNG more and realised what a huge pile of steaming shit VGR was when compared.

Incidentally, the worst episode of VGR I`ve seen is where Voyager is trapped in `chaotic space`, and Chakotay, after having several vision quests (oh dear), has a boxing match with the personification of the chaotic space, Kid Chaos. I forget the name of the episode, but it truly did suck sweaty orifices.
Voyager wasn`t really `bad` as such IMO, but it always felt stunted and it could have been so, so much more...
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Big Orange
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Re: Why do people think Voyager isn't very good?

Post by Big Orange »

JME2 wrote: What was it Q's son said in "Q2"? "Talk about perfection" or something like that. 8)
Simon Pegg (King of the UK Nerds/Geeks) has called her 'the true Borg queen' when wishing Jeri a happy birthday over on Twitter. :lol:
'Alright guard, begin the unnecessarily slow moving dipping mechanism...' - Dr. Evil

'Secondly, I don't see why "income inequality" is a bad thing. Poverty is not an injustice. There is no such thing as causes for poverty, only causes for wealth. Poverty is not a wrong, but taking money from those who have it to equalize incomes is basically theft, which is wrong.' - Typical Randroid

'I think it's gone a little bit wrong.' - The Doctor
Rommel123
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Re: Why do people think Voyager isn't very good?

Post by Rommel123 »

Well, there is Captain Janeway. Acts like Roman Emperor, takes advice but always goes her way, and I don't remember if she ever changed her mind due to advice from one of her senior officers. Althought she did take advice from Chakotay in "Scorpion", which ultimately saved ship and got them new crewmember. But after TNG, with Captain Picard (Patrick Stewart acting) she was just lame.

Then, there are inconsistencies, like Kazon getting smaller every next time they appear on-screen. Budget is budget, but still...

There are other reasons I can't remember right now. But "Temporal Cold War" started with voyager, if I remember correctly.
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Re: Why do people think Voyager isn't very good?

Post by Big Orange »

Rommel123 wrote:Then, there are inconsistencies, like Kazon getting smaller every next time they appear on-screen. Budget is budget, but still...
I think you've mistaken the Hirogen for the Kazon; they actors/extras playing getting smaller seemed to have been down to logistics.
There are other reasons I can't remember right now. But "Temporal Cold War" started with voyager, if I remember correctly.
They had a time travelling future Starfleet, which I admit was one of Braga's better ideas, but no, the half baked Temporal Cold War was more early Enterprise's bag.
'Alright guard, begin the unnecessarily slow moving dipping mechanism...' - Dr. Evil

'Secondly, I don't see why "income inequality" is a bad thing. Poverty is not an injustice. There is no such thing as causes for poverty, only causes for wealth. Poverty is not a wrong, but taking money from those who have it to equalize incomes is basically theft, which is wrong.' - Typical Randroid

'I think it's gone a little bit wrong.' - The Doctor
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