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EnterpriseSovereign wrote: ↑2023-03-25 03:06pm I don't know, their relationship was ill-conceived to begin with and was at odds with Seven's character in Voyager.

It's a matter of opinion of course, I never had problem with Seven's character being different, it's clear 20 odd years of hammering on the anvil of life has changed her between series as she says in this episode she was reborn on Voyager and still was very emotionally/romantically young even by the end of the show it's not implausible to me she figured out she was bi or even lesbian after the series.

^ I skimmed those spoiler, they make sense given Shaw reminding us about the Borg issue and specifically mentioned there are still non-friendly borg out there not just Jurati's collective. Are nanoprobes an STD I wonder? OTOH it seems very late in the show to throw that at us.

We're more than halfway now.

In regards to Kirk's body I'd say there's 2 possible explanations, first they're quarantining/studying it for any possible side effects from Kirk's trip to the Nexus and second they're quarantining the body to prevent any unwanted questions or exploitation of the Nexus.

Kirk went MIA presumed KIA on-board the Enterprise (NCC-1701-B) in the late 23rd century, how his body ended up in a random pre-warp planet in the mid to late 24th century without signs of spending nearly a century on that planet just raises questions Starfleet doesn't want answer and is a potential Prime Directive nightmare (for both the regular and temporal versions)

Why would Kirk's reappearance in the 24th century be any worse than all the other weird shit that routinely happens in Star Trek? Surely Picard was able to explain what happened and how the nexus was a timeless realm that Kirk was trapped in all those years.

Yeah. Weird Time travel shit happening was all over the place until VOY and ENT introduced the future Fed Time Police.

Also, Kirk died a Hero on the Enterprise-B (from the rest of the galaxies perspective). He was probably memorialized, etc.

Suddenly having his body show up, could result in a bit of a shit-storm. (And that's without considering people learning how the Nexus works and trying to figure a way to use it).

Storing him in a high security facility, under secrecy, probably makes a lot of sense (in-universe. Out of universe - unless there was a reason to keep the body for study, load him in a photon torpedo, small final funeral, and then launch him into a star.)

A minor point, but as an episode of Short Treks revealed, the Tribble is already genetically modified, that's how they came to breed like crazy.

Formless wrote: ↑2023-03-25 03:32pm

EnterpriseSovereign wrote: ↑2023-03-24 10:25pmOne of the goodies that Riker spotted looked to me like the Phase Cloak from The Pegasus.

I suspect the answer is related to why they are after his son. Somehow Jack can tell when he's looking at a Changeling, even when he's not consciously aware that he is. And there seems to be more to his hallucinations than can be explained by his genetic disorder.

He didn't know. I believe what scares him and is hinted is that whatever took him over didn't care if they were changelings or not, it/he would have killed them regardless.

Well episode 7 is a bit of a shitshow. Spoilers to come.

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No Riker, Worf, Troi or Raffi. The Titan crew lure in Vadic then lose the ship to her.

We find out she was prisoner of war and her abilities were granted by Starfleet torturing and trying to weaponise them. This really doesn't fit with the impression I got from Ds9. (To the extent that there were 10 changelings in the alpha quadrant we never heard about) .

Tuvok appears or rather a Changling impersonating him.

Jack is psychic and the end of the episode cliffhanger is teasing once again finding out what the hell his deal is.

I just can't seem to care about this as much as I should. LeVar Burton got to show some acting chops and finally address the LaForge side of Data's death though. That's a highlight.

I feel the whole stuff about the torture of the changelings was very poorly done. It's an interesting concept, and it adds a visceral element to the concept of the Federation's warcrimes coming back to haunt them. But it would be much more compelling if they used federation technology - hyposprays and similar - over bunsen burners and needles. There was even mention of concrete floors on Daystrom Station.

I've always found the outcome of DS9 to be contrived, and in this episode's discussion I do feel it is consciously ignoring the Dominion's warcrimes of course, which probably do deserve a mention in that context.

Also we have Vadic claiming to be the one responsible for the altered changelings, while answering to someone else. So I have to wonder how much she's lying here.

Then we come to Picard's body containing some parasite, which makes them question the diagnosis of the condition that killed him. Along with the speculation that the changelings want Picard's body to fool genetic scanners, which can only work if Starfleet are expecting Picard to turn up in something other than his synth body. Hopefully our heroes are just completely wrong about why they want Picard's body.

I stopped with the episode where they were doing gruesome things to people in a lab. At that point, I realized that I was watching something that was far different from what Roddenberry wanted for the show, and something repulsive for one who grew up with the franchise.

Who gives a shit what Roddenberry did or didn't want? Roddenberry wanted Ferengi to have huge cocks too, but I doubt most people feel like the show was lacking something when the studio told him that won't fly on television. People said the same shit about DS9, and if they didn't watch the show on account of that, they were the ones who missed out. I for one am tired of hearing about Roddenberry's vision of the show. Its a dead horse. Stop hitting it with sticks.

NecronLord wrote: ↑2023-03-31 09:11pm I feel the whole stuff about the torture of the changelings was very poorly done. It's an interesting concept, and it adds a visceral element to the concept of the Federation's warcrimes coming back to haunt them. But it would be much more compelling if they used federation technology - hyposprays and similar - over bunsen burners and needles. There was even mention of concrete floors on Daystrom Station.

I've always found the outcome of DS9 to be contrived, and in this episode's discussion I do feel it is consciously ignoring the Dominion's warcrimes of course, which probably do deserve a mention in that context.

This feels like it makes the end of DS9 more contrived not less. Like the female Changling was always willing to abandon the alpha quadrant to get Odo back to the link but if there are 10 changelings missing behind the lines at that point? I don't think they'd have given up then at that point.

It was also interesting that Vadic's comeback about the cure is only half-correct. Odo made the choice to give the cure to the dominion but it was (iirc) Bashir and O'Brien who stole it from Section 31 in the first place.

I'd have less problem with this issue if it was fewer Changelings and it was explicitly Section 31 not Starfleet proper who'd done it.

I'm having difficulty thinking of a full list of the Dominions warcrimes to be honest. There's of course the war of aggression itself, and the massacre of cardassian civilians at the end of the war. There's also the Inferno's Light attack before the war started. Are there more I'm forgotting?

Speaking of "In Inferno's Light" seems to be the gathering of the whole fleet in the Sol System is asking for a repeat performance but that wouldn't need a Picard doppelganger.

Formless wrote: ↑2023-04-01 01:56am Who gives a shit what Roddenberry did or didn't want? Roddenberry wanted Ferengi to have huge cocks too, but I doubt most people feel like the show was lacking something when the studio told him that won't fly on television. People said the same shit about DS9, and if they didn't watch the show on account of that, they were the ones who missed out. I for one am tired of hearing about Roddenberry's vision of the show. Its a dead horse. Stop hitting it with sticks.

Yes and no. i don't think we should be beholden to Roddenberry himself and his specific wants and thoughts. But the general theme of Star Trek as a positive optimistic future? Definitely should cling to that. What Disco and Picard did especially in their first series was half a lot of grimdark at the start and middle to contrast very Star Trek upbeat endings but they made the setting seem darker overall to do it.

Picard currently is kind of making the Federation look awful with a few good people in it. Rather than even Ds9 where it was a utopia with some flaws they needed to guard against.

I don't think it's ruined the franchise or isn't proper Star Trek or any of that stuff but it is noticeable to me nevertheless.

Let me just say, I have a reason for my distaste of lionizing Roddenberry and his vision of the show: everyone who actually knew him talks about the man in very different terms than fans do. They knew him, they knew his vision, but they also knew from working behind the scenes that he wasn't the only important figure in making Star Trek what we know today. In this interview with Sir Patrick Stewart and Gates McFaddon, I think they say it best:

Patrick Stewart: Most of the fundamentals of Star Trek philosophy began with Gene. Now, we extended them. And after Gene had so sadly died in our third season I think and left us, the atmosphere as to what subjects we could use was relaxed a little bit. Gene didn't want politics. Well, politics doesn't just mean the Republican party and the Democratic party or Labor party or the Conservative party, it... it...

Gates McFaddon: Culture, society, everything.

Patrick Stewart: Yes, yes, all of that too, you know?

(also, earlier in the interview as well as after this bit, McFaddon implies that Gene was guilty of sexism which she's implied before is what caused her to leave the show in season 2. Stewart also talks about how much Gene disliked him, seemingly for no reason).

In other words, Gene's vision of the future has some unintentional dystopian implications when you stop to think about it: Stewart seems to be talking about the infamous "no conflict" rule, which he is basically implying to mean that there is serious groupthink in Gene's vision of the future. We know Stewart wanted to reintroduce politics into the mythology to make a point about our reality, and that point couldn't be made by making an analogy through an alien society, at least not without losing that which gives it its punch. That's why I don't give a shit about these criticisms. Like Stewart said, Roddenberry decided on the basic ideals for the show, but other people extended and expanded on those, and they deserve more credit for that.

You know what I miss? Shows that had a self contained story in an episode. The obsessive need for a saga to run all season long or more is frankly tiresome. Sometimes I just want a story that resolves itself at the end of the hour and we've just decided that's not what we all wanted anymore.

At the end of the day, I don't really give a shit about the changelings or what is up with Jack Ryan and his origins. I only tuned into the third season for the OG cast members. That was it and sadly even in Picard, Troi's character is more on the backend.

Remember in DS9 how the Dominion waged its war of conquest because the changelings were scared of what solids would do to them ?

All that torture and experimentation on POWs from the Dominion War is the Federation proving the Dominion right. We are talking about prisoners who have proven to be very skilled infiltrators. Prisoners who should be treated very well to show the Dominion that the Federation can be trusted. Nothing should happen to them without approval from the highest levels. At a minimum, they disappeared and nobody did anything.

In Picard season 1, we have a Federation so scared of synths that they are willing to let children die of easily treated illnesses. A Starfleet willing to conduct black ops to murder intelligent life, with Starfleet officers committing suicide or being thrown out of Starfleet, rather than risk people interacting with synths and questioning the synth ban.

That is what I dislike the most about how things have changed. There is now an evil at the core of the Federation and nobody is horrified by it. DS9 at least had characters who saw Section 31 as a blight on the Federation and I've argued before that the ending says that the anti-changeling virus made the war worse.

Soontir C'boath wrote: ↑2023-04-01 10:51pm You know what I miss? Shows that had a self contained story in an episode. The obsessive need for a saga to run all season long or more is frankly tiresome. Sometimes I just want a story that resolves itself at the end of the hour and we've just decided that's not what we all wanted anymore.

At the end of the day, I don't really give a shit about the changelings or what is up with Jack Ryan and his origins. I only tuned into the third season for the OG cast members. That was it and sadly even in Picard, Troi's character is more on the backend.

Lower Decks and Strange New Worlds manage self-contained episodes. Lower Decks has even managed season finals that don't have something threatening to destroy the Federation.

Btw did anyone catch the registry number on the USS New Jersey (I got NCC-19??) as I didn't get good view of the last 2 digits on the the ship.

1975 according to memory alpha. After Terry Matalas' place and year of birth.

The general thing I don't like about this has less to do with Roddenberry as a person, and more Star Trek as the idea that perhaps we can have an upbeat future. Too many plots about the deep state doing torture doesn't fit that at all.

Crazedwraith wrote: ↑2023-04-01 07:07am This feels like it makes the end of DS9 more contrived not less. Like the female Changling was always willing to abandon the alpha quadrant to get Odo back to the link but if there are 10 changelings missing behind the lines at that point? I don't think they'd have given up then at that point.

Not that I want to defend this plot but didn't Vadic say that she had gone back to the Great Link at some point? I assumed that meant they'd been repatriated.

It was also interesting that Vadic's comeback about the cure is only half-correct. Odo made the choice to give the cure to the dominion but it was (iirc) Bashir and O'Brien who stole it from Section 31 in the first place.

I wonder how much she knows.

I'd have less problem with this issue if it was fewer Changelings and it was explicitly Section 31 not Starfleet proper who'd done it.

I'm having difficulty thinking of a full list of the Dominions warcrimes to be honest. There's of course the war of aggression itself, and the massacre of cardassian civilians at the end of the war. There's also the Inferno's Light attack before the war started. Are there more I'm forgotting?

Those are the main ones, there was also the Quickening in the delta quadrant, I'm sure someone can remember more.

Speaking of "In Inferno's Light" seems to be the gathering of the whole fleet in the Sol System is asking for a repeat performance but that wouldn't need a Picard doppelganger.

Yeah. That would be a neat callback.

Crazedwraith wrote: ↑2023-04-02 04:33am 1975 according to memory alpha. After Terry Matalas' place and year of birth.

Interesting as NCC-1975 would make New Jersey quite late for an unrefitted Connie seeing as Excelsior was NX/NCC-2000 and Enterprise (which we know was refitted) is NCC-1701, possibly even the last non-refit Connie built.

IIRC NCC numbers are a mess and only very roughly sequential. I suspect there weren't 200 odd connies for example.

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Given the series propensity for legacy characters turning up it would nice to see a Ds9-only character turn up. Maybe a Weyoun could turn up to repatriate the founders?

I hope we'll also see real Tuvok appear at some point.

I don't think it's canon but I'm fond of the Naval Construction Contract explanation.

That would still imply there were 76 of a new flight of connies built in series 19 though.

I like Naval Contruction Contract because it at least makes sense. And as ALL Starfleet ships have NCC registries who's to say all those registry numbers were Connies?

Well, we got here. The whole gang is together, and it's honestly great. The how we got here is, if we're being charitable, uninspiring, but I'm hoping we're going to get two episodes of the TNG crew doing TNG things.

Also, did I see right that Worf was wearing a captain's jacket under his baldric? I could swear there were 4 pips, but maybe I was mistaken.

DS9 had one episode with a changeling who could travel through space under his own power. These modified changelings died in the vacuum of space. They gave up a lot for their improved infiltration capability and a chance to take revenge on the Federation. So much anger that has been removed from the Great Link.