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Sovie takes it.


The Prometheus is cooler though. What they really should have done was have it able to recombine into other forms.....

CHANGE PROMETHEUS 1!!! SWITCH ON!!!!

Alyeska wrote:

Matt Huang wrote:

Alyeska wrote: Incorrect.

The Prometheus sports 18 phaser arrays and 3 torpedo launchers. The Sovereign sports 15 phaser arrays (several being larger arrays meaning more power), 8 torpedo launchers, and one quantum torpedo launcher.

MVAM it gets 18 phaser arrays / 5 torp launchers, + regenerative shields & ablative armor.

Incorrect. MVAM gets it 18 phaser arrays and 3 torpedo launchers along with shields and armor. The Sovereign has 15 arrays (which are more powerful), more torpedo launchers, and quantum torpedoes. The Sovereign can destroy a single section of the Prometheus and reduce the firepower it has to deal with by 33%. The Sovereign will win easily.

How do we know the power is evenly distributed among the sections? The saucer probably doesn't have room for a very big warp core. I'd expect the two lower sections to have similar or identical outputs, but the saucer to be slightly less powerful than either.

The Sov would take it, and it had better! It is 3-4 times larger than the Prom and on a similar technological level. Prom however being a purpose built warship rather than an upgunned explorer would deliver far more firepower/ton than a Sov. A Prom without the stupid MVAM would fave an even better firepower to mass rating. An equal mass of Sovs vs Proms would go to the Proms.

CJvR wrote:The Sov would take it, and it had better! It is 3-4 times larger than the Prom and on a similar technological level. Prom however being a purpose built warship rather than an upgunned explorer would deliver far more firepower/ton than a Sov. A Prom without the stupid MVAM would fave an even better firepower to mass rating. An equal mass of Sovs vs Proms would go to the Proms.

The Sovi is a dedicated war ship... it's not an explorer like the Galaxy class.

HRogge wrote:

CJvR wrote:The Sov would take it, and it had better! It is 3-4 times larger than the Prom and on a similar technological level. Prom however being a purpose built warship rather than an upgunned explorer would deliver far more firepower/ton than a Sov. A Prom without the stupid MVAM would fave an even better firepower to mass rating. An equal mass of Sovs vs Proms would go to the Proms.

The Sovi is a dedicated war ship... it's not an explorer like the Galaxy class.

And your source for this is where exactly?
Its definitly appears to have more military hardware built into it, but nothing makes me think that its nothing BUT Battleship like the Defiant is. In the Dominion War she was performing diplomatic, scientific and exploration missions, not running around blasting everything.

Of course the diplomatic missions were mostly waving the Federations flag, impressing other cultures by showing Starfleet sending their new toy out to say hi. And while they were out there anyway, they could run around performing all manner of missions for the Federation.

But the Sovereign appears to be a direct descendent of the Galaxy mindset. Granted, Starfleets increasing militarisation is also reflected, but its not a Battleship. If it was, it would probably be as tightly cramped as the Defiant on the inside, only the Captian with his own room and all other space pointed at military applications. I mean when did you see the Defiant with a Stellar Cartography lab...

Chris OFarrell wrote:And your source for this is where exactly?
Its definitly appears to have more military hardware built into it, but nothing makes me think that its nothing BUT Battleship like the Defiant is. In the Dominion War she was performing diplomatic, scientific and exploration missions, not running around blasting everything.

Of course the diplomatic missions were mostly waving the Federations flag, impressing other cultures by showing Starfleet sending their new toy out to say hi. And while they were out there anyway, they could run around performing all manner of missions for the Federation.

But the Sovereign appears to be a direct descendent of the Galaxy mindset. Granted, Starfleets increasing militarisation is also reflected, but its not a Battleship. If it was, it would probably be as tightly cramped as the Defiant on the inside, only the Captian with his own room and all other space pointed at military applications. I mean when did you see the Defiant with a Stellar Cartography lab...

They removed the families... and put in more weapons/better weapon, more powerful shields and a good amount of armor.

The sovi is still no submarine = Defiant, it's still a flagship... but do you think any warship should be as cramped as something like a Defiant ?

Chris OFarrell wrote:In the Dominion War she was performing diplomatic, scientific and exploration missions, not running around blasting everything.

Uh... what? Since when has the Sovereign appeared in anything except FC, I, and Nemesis?

In FC it was involved in the battle throughout the film.

In I it was on a diplomatic mission, and warships/battleships can be used to great effect on such missions ("gunboat" diplomacy).

In N same thing, gunboat diplomacy.

I'm more interested in hearing about all this "scientific, exploration" missions though. Because I don't remember it.

Well Insurrection took place during the Dominion war and the Enterprise was doing diplomatic work.

evilcat4000 wrote:Well Insurrection took place during the Dominion war and the Enterprise was doing diplomatic work.

Yes-s-s. I pointed this out. Not surprising in the least, and well within historical precedent.

Metrion Cascade wrote:How do we know the power is evenly distributed among the sections? The saucer probably doesn't have room for a very big warp core. I'd expect the two lower sections to have similar or identical outputs, but the saucer to be slightly less powerful than either.

The ships creator stated that it has 3 equaly sized warp cores, one on each section.

Alyeska wrote:The ships creator stated that it has 3 equaly sized warp cores, one on each section.

SO each section has roughly 1/3 of the available energy of a large/compact ship.

HRogge wrote:

Alyeska wrote:The ships creator stated that it has 3 equaly sized warp cores, one on each section.

SO each section has roughly 1/3 of the available energy of a large/compact ship.

Yes and no. The Prometheus used newer cores that were very powerful. Adapted on the concept of the Defiant, only better. So a single Prometheus section had better power then a Defiant.

Alyeska wrote:Yes and no. The Prometheus used newer cores that were very powerful. Adapted on the concept of the Defiant, only better. So a single Prometheus section had better power then a Defiant.

Okay, let me rephrase my sentence.

The prometheus has 1/3 of the energy available as soon as it splits up ( especially for shields ). A compact ship with the same tech would not have to distribute the power over three different shield systems.

HRogge wrote:The prometheus has 1/3 of the energy available as soon as it splits up ( especially for shields ). A compact ship with the same tech would not have to distribute the power over three different shield systems.

In MVAM Prom would be lucky to get half the shield power in each of the components that it should have easily available combined.

MVAM is a stupid idea growing more stupid the more one thinks about it... To bad they inflicted it on the best looking ship in Starfleet, Prometheus got the look of a fighting starship unlike Defiant that looks like a tank and Galaxy that looks like an orbital hotel.

If you're really willing to reach and flail to avoid invoking Starfleet's legendary incompetence on the Prometheus, there is, in theory, an excuse.

From Message in a Bottle she's obviously got asskicking to spare on most ships she might face. From Peak Performance we know shields can be strengthened in one direction, to the degree that even obselete ships can punch through. MVAM is therefore built to rapidly blast through weaker ships, by preventing them from intensifying shields in any one direction. The ship, if faced with a foe actually superior or equal to it, would remain in one peice(The one in Endgame wasn't seperated, and it was expecting a Sphere).

Of course, the real reason is 'Because it looked nifty'. Which it did. Impractical as hell, but it looked pretty.

SirNitram wrote:From Message in a Bottle she's obviously got asskicking to spare on most ships she might face. From Peak Performance we know shields can be strengthened in one direction, to the degree that even obselete ships can punch through. MVAM is therefore built to rapidly blast through weaker ships, by preventing them from intensifying shields in any one direction.

The problem with this is that you don't need to concentrate the shields if your enemy distributes his total firepower.

HRogge wrote:

SirNitram wrote:From Message in a Bottle she's obviously got asskicking to spare on most ships she might face. From Peak Performance we know shields can be strengthened in one direction, to the degree that even obselete ships can punch through. MVAM is therefore built to rapidly blast through weaker ships, by preventing them from intensifying shields in any one direction.

The problem with this is that you don't need to concentrate the shields if your enemy distributes his total firepower.

Which would be a problem against a foe equal or superior to the Prometheus. Against weaker ships, it merely prevents them from prolonging their defense. Again, I'm specifically stating this is for what we saw it used for: Rapid destruction of ships weaker than the Prommie.

SirNitram wrote:Which would be a problem against a foe equal or superior to the Prometheus. Against weaker ships, it merely prevents them from prolonging their defense. Again, I'm specifically stating this is for what we saw it used for: Rapid destruction of ships weaker than the Prommie.

Okay... but three defiants might do the same job.

HRogge wrote:

SirNitram wrote:Which would be a problem against a foe equal or superior to the Prometheus. Against weaker ships, it merely prevents them from prolonging their defense. Again, I'm specifically stating this is for what we saw it used for: Rapid destruction of ships weaker than the Prommie.

Okay... but three defiants might do the same job.

That they would. I'd have to guess that the Prometheus has superior range to the Defiant in 'single' mode. Range was supposed to be the Defiant's biggest problem, wasn't it?

In my opinion the most reasonable use for the Prometheus is that of a long range fast raider. Perhaps building smaller ships capable of very high speeds and massive firepower is problematic so the SF use the MVAM instead. The ship do a high speed run to it's target, perhaps a convoy, take out the defences and then break up to strike multiple weaker targets of oppertunity, such as scattering transports. Breaking into MVAM when confronting equal or stronger enemies would be a bad idea unless the battle was lost and you try to save 2/3 of the ship...

SirNitram wrote:Range was supposed to be the Defiant's biggest problem, wasn't it?

Range and speed I think. The Defiant is essentialy a monitor.

CJvR wrote:

SirNitram wrote:Range was supposed to be the Defiant's biggest problem, wasn't it?

Range and speed I think. The Defiant is essentialy a monitor.

I thought so. Also, was Message in a Bottle where we saw a pair of Defiants with beam Phasers? I'm trying to remember if they were strafing the Prometheus; if they were, they didn't do much good, and thus we know the Prommie is, at least, quite powerful in her assembled form.

SirNitram wrote:Also, was Message in a Bottle where we saw a pair of Defiants with beam Phasers? I'm trying to remember if they were strafing the Prometheus; if they were, they didn't do much good, and thus we know the Prommie is, at least, quite powerful in her assembled form.

No, they both used their "blow up a Jem-Hadar bug in two shots" Pulse phasers - or whatever their main guns are called. It didn't make much impression on Prometheus though despite direct hits with about 40-60 shots on the initial run as well as an extended beam blast from the Akira. Prom took all that without even a single console blowing up!!! After that pounding the Prometheus separated and blasted a Warbird in seconds with only the weaker beam array of one Defiants helping.

The prometheus is a newer design than the Defiant... the Defiant was designed shortly after the borg problem, the prometheus much later.

Underside beam phasers were demonstrated in Message in a Bottle on the Defiant class. The Defiant class has 3 known beam phasers. One just behind the bridge, one just behind the shuttlebay, and one in the nose.