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Honestly the virus was a fine explanation for what it was. Stupid from a biological standpoint (though who knows how alien genetics might work), but fine enough.

I still think the 'planet of hats' attitude contributed to a lot of Trek's problems, though. There's any number of ways you can rationalize it, but the fact of the matter is that with rare exceptions-- bearing in mind that we don't necessarily know how an alien species would evolve culturally, socially and racially-- it seems obnoxiously ignorant to stereotype entire species based upon only a few members.

Borgholio wrote:I always thought we never saw any cultural diversity because there never WAS any.

To be fair we did see a little throughout the franchise. There was of course Sybok, the Vulcan that stayed on Earth when T'Pol's grandma crash landed and the emotional Vulcans for different Vulcans. We had the Ferengi scientist in one episode of TNG who invented a super shield without caring about profit plus Rom and Nog. There was several Klingons who didn't fit the normal warrior race mold including Worf lawyer grandfather (though there has been some speculation he still fit the warrior mold because he considered the courtroom his battlefield) and a Klingon restaurant owner in DS9.

There has been some variation in culture just very little.

Now of course there is some reasons for this. Of course we are mostly going to see only warrior Klingons because we mostly see warships. We are mostly going to see greedy Ferengi because we mostly see people out amongst the stars trading shit. We mostly see only suspicious Romulans because most are soldiers or spies.

Its like Khaat said, its the reason we mostly only see snotty ass humans because most revolve around the type of human who would join Starfleet. We also see more into Starfleet people's lives to see that there is some variation. We know Riker wants to bone alien women that look like stereotypical lesbians, we know Laforge wants to bone the Enterprise, we know Bones has never met a pill he won't pop and drug he won't drop, we know Sulu gets absolutely giddy over antique firearms, we know Janeway is horribly incompetent and we know Chakotay has always been into "rolls dice" boxing.

We don't get that same level of detail in other species. Part of its lazy writing but part of its the fact we don't see enough of most others species to see the individuality.

That's why I'd like if it was "variations on a theme" rather just one stereotypical cultural identity for all, I mean both the Spartans and the Vikings were a "warrior culture" but still very different in the details.

By doing things this way you kinda would get the best of both worlds in that cultures would still be easily readble to the audience but You wouldn't get "you can sterotype a race based on few members and still be accurate" that's a problem with a lot of modern trek.

Honestly, I'd rather have highly uniform culture than have several different 'warrior cultures' on the same Klingon homeworld.

If they have one uniform warrior culture, it just means that the planet was united under a single culture. I can easily imagine there having been other, less warlike, Klingon cultures in the past that were superseded by this one. It could be a historical coincidence, sort of like how English happens to have become a dominant planetary language despite the fact that five hundred years ago it was spoken by the inhabitants of only a single island who made up less than 1% of the human population.

If they have several warrior cultures (e.g. Spartan Klingons, Viking Klingons, Comanche Klingons, etc.), then that's not a coincidence. Then they really are all like that, which effectively means that Klingons really are all warriors on some kind of biologically determined level.

Elheru Aran wrote:Honestly the virus was a fine explanation for what it was. Stupid from a biological standpoint (though who knows how alien genetics might work), but fine enough.

A virus that is specifically intended to genetically modify Klingons is actually a really good explanation. It does something no virus could normally do and alter Klingon phenotype and genotype, precisely because the Klingons spent years designing it to do exactly that.

We actually do see Vulcan home life, and enough Vulcans to get a sense of spectrum for their culture. Aside from outliers like Sybok, there are variations of Vulcan philosophy. Enterprise had the High Command, who were militant, xenophobic, and in general, jackasses. They had the emotional outlier group, and most importantly, the Syrannites. The Syrannites were the actual followers of Surak's teachings, or at least the direct translation of it.

And those are the stated factions. We also see variety in the Vulcans we meet. Spock and Sarek are very much of the diplomacy, science, and tolerance variety. Vorik, and mostly badly acted Vulcans are of the 'be a robot's variety. Sakonna, Tuvok, and the Vulcans that play baseball are clearly of the military action is the correct response to a problem variety.

As an example, Spock's response to a problem or enemy would be something technical, but logical solution, leaving force as a last resort. While Tuvok's would be to incapacitate the enemy, even if it involves lethal force, when he knows they cannot be reasoned with. Witness his actions against the Hirogen in Hunters when talking is not an option.

Simon_Jester wrote:Honestly, I'd rather have highly uniform culture than have several different 'warrior cultures' on the same Klingon homeworld.

If they have one uniform warrior culture, it just means that the planet was united under a single culture. I can easily imagine there having been other, less warlike, Klingon cultures in the past that were superseded by this one. It could be a historical coincidence, sort of like how English happens to have become a dominant planetary language despite the fact that five hundred years ago it was spoken by the inhabitants of only a single island who made up less than 1% of the human population.

If they have several warrior cultures (e.g. Spartan Klingons, Viking Klingons, Comanche Klingons, etc.), then that's not a coincidence. Then they really are all like that, which effectively means that Klingons really are all warriors on some kind of biologically determined level.

This only happens if they're unique "warrior cultures" but if they're "different interpitations of Kaleesh the Unforgetble's teachings" you still get the one culture that essentially overtook others but overtime it split into several cultures that are similar but not identical hence "variations on a theme" the theme here being "Kaleesh's teachings"

That's still problematic because it implies that the split happened in the planet's distant past. That it isn't some kind of homogenization process, but that one culture per planet is somehow... natural, and can occur even in pre-modern times where historically nothing like that happened on Earth in that timeframe.

"Everyone on this planet obeys the same sacred book" may not be as much of a 'hat' as "everyone on this planet does exactly the same things," but it is still a hat.

Lord Revan wrote:

Simon_Jester wrote:Honestly, I'd rather have highly uniform culture than have several different 'warrior cultures' on the same Klingon homeworld.

If they have one uniform warrior culture, it just means that the planet was united under a single culture. I can easily imagine there having been other, less warlike, Klingon cultures in the past that were superseded by this one. It could be a historical coincidence, sort of like how English happens to have become a dominant planetary language despite the fact that five hundred years ago it was spoken by the inhabitants of only a single island who made up less than 1% of the human population.

If they have several warrior cultures (e.g. Spartan Klingons, Viking Klingons, Comanche Klingons, etc.), then that's not a coincidence. Then they really are all like that, which effectively means that Klingons really are all warriors on some kind of biologically determined level.

This only happens if they're unique "warrior cultures" but if they're "different interpitations of Kaleesh the Unforgetble's teachings" you still get the one culture that essentially overtook others but overtime it split into several cultures that are similar but not identical hence "variations on a theme" the theme here being "Kaleesh's teachings"

It's Kahless the Unforgettable, by the way. Also, the S1 or S2 Enterprise episode where Martok's ancestor appeared, Martok the Elder tells Archer the takeover of Klingon society by the warrior class was a relatively recent thing, and, they had largely twisted the honor system put in place by Kahless to their own advantage.

Naturally, this would explain why the Klingons of the original series and the TMP era acted dishonorably, until Gorkon's reign as chancellor began changing that, with Azetbur's succession carrying Gorkon's reforms forward, at least until something between ST6 and the TNG era undid all that to turn Klingon society into a one-note song of drunken warriors eating live worms and the still-beating hearts of their enemies calling all the shots.

That sounds about right- even if people like Kang were beneficiaries of the warrior class appropriating the honor system, they may have had a rather more... flexible... notion about its application. Whereas their descendants wound up believing the hype and became more likely to follow it in their personal lives.

Though to be fair, for all we know the Klingons were chowing down on live worms in the TOS era too.

Though to be fair, for all we know the Klingons were chowing down on live worms in the TOS era too.

They were during ENT at least.

Yeah. Good food is still good food, whether or not your culture's been taken over by violent honor-fetishists.

Borgholio wrote:

Though to be fair, for all we know the Klingons were chowing down on live worms in the TOS era too.

They were during ENT at least.

That's a fair point, actually. Could the "augmented" Klingons we see in the original series be able to gain nourishment from live worms, and other various delicacies of the traditional Klingon diet*, or did their mutations change their dietary requirements? I mean, true, human beings could eat live g'agH(as Riker did in TNG's "A Matter Of Honor"), but being able to eat Klingon food, and being able to gain nourishment from it are two decidedly different things.

*to say nothing of whether or not it was toxic to them

Given that this is a setting where the two species can breed and produce viable offspring I do not see it as being an unreasonable assumption that they can also digest and gain nutrition from each others food.

Another example, from Enterprise (we're doing a watching binge of late). The episode "The Forge" indicated a schism between mainstream Vulcans of the time and "Syrannites", a different sect apparently considered heretical and/or dangerous (I think this group actually became mainstream by TOS and going forward). Granted, "The Forge" was written and filmed decades after TOS but is a definite example of showing cultural differences/diversity.

U.P. Cinnabar wrote:

Borgholio wrote:

Though to be fair, for all we know the Klingons were chowing down on live worms in the TOS era too.

They were during ENT at least.

That's a fair point, actually. Could the "augmented" Klingons we see in the original series be able to gain nourishment from live worms, and other various delicacies of the traditional Klingon diet*, or did their mutations change their dietary requirements? I mean, true, human beings could eat live g'agH(as Riker did in TNG's "A Matter Of Honor"), but being able to eat Klingon food, and being able to gain nourishment from it are two decidedly different things.
*to say nothing of whether or not it was toxic to them

Uh... it's not clear to me that the Klingons we saw in TOS were actually augmented in any way. If by 'augmented' you just mean 'mutated,' that's fine of course... unless someone actually said at some point that the botched augment virus actually altered Klingon digestion, then I see no reason to assume it had an effect.

To me, the Vulcans were the people who made the most sense to be a "all alike" civilization, as they subscribe to logic.

What is the best clothing to wear in this certain area? Good, everyone gets one set.
What's the most efficient housing layout for a family of 3? Good, everyone shall build like that.
Best transport method? Best education? The list goes on and on. It would only be logical that a society like that would be virtually uniform.

And then, we have the Romulans, who are Vulcans that emmigrated when this kind of thinking took hold, because they liked to stay emotional and different. Kind of. And then they became a military superstate.

Maybe there is a strong genetic trait in Vulcans to behave similar to others - much stronger than what we call 'group pressure' (more on a canine pack instinct level - the absolute need to be part of a group, no matter what) which only few can overcome and become focal points for others to align themselves to.That would also explain why the Romulans are also pretty much in cultural lock-step, just in a different way. If a group not sharing the main group's moral code isn't big enough to secede and seperate themselves from the main group's constant influence, they seem to get reabsorbed pretty quickly.

I heard one idea, that on Vulcan, they had a normie-Uebermensch war like the humans did, only there was a severe nuclear exchange that screwed the planet up, Fallout-style (hence all the weird critters, like the Le-matya).

So the 'normal' Vulcans got the hell out of dodge, and found their own world. That explains why the Romulans don't seem to the touch-telepathy and aren't 'brawny nerds' like Vulcans.

The Vulcans, the genetically-engineered supermen were left behind, Vulcan adapted, society adapted and the natives adapted as well. They, being the "Arrogant supermen" like Khan, fought amongst themselves, until one of them said, "Right enough of this silliness," possibly to prevent yet *another* atomic war.

Canon Trek pretty much already has the "Fallout" Vulcan thing confirmed already though nothing to do with genetic engineering. There is mention of a much more war like past including a nuclear war brought upon by Surak's teachings meeting resistance. Apparently there was so much push back against his logic teachings that they were willing to do war over it. It doesn't make much sense for the proto-Romulans to want to nuke the other side over peaceful preaching or the Surak faction having a live and let live attitude. Nor does canon imply it was one sided affair, clearly the logical Vulcans were only to willing to engage in nuclear war too despite being pacifists.

Forced conversions maybe? Holy war on the infidels unwilling to embrace logic? Emotional people attacking the movement they feared without provocation? Hard to say. Either way there was a nuclear war nearly two thousand years before the shows and presumably devastated the planet. It doesn't make much sense for such a near human species to evolve on a world that seems almost completely desert. Could be the planet was relatively lush and Earth like until the War.

The Romulans as far as I know have the same above human strength as the Vulcans but do not have any telepathy. Presumably they don't have telepathy because the Vulcan's overt telepathy is the result of centuries of embracing logic and focusing their minds. Though I'm not sure on that considering the katra stuff was around during Surak's time so maybe Romulan's have the ability to be psychic too but have suppressed it because telepathy scares the bowl cut out of the paranoid and private Romulans.

Joun_Lord wrote:Canon Trek pretty much already has the "Fallout" Vulcan thing confirmed already though nothing to do with genetic engineering. There is mention of a much more war like past including a nuclear war brought upon by Surak's teachings meeting resistance. Apparently there was so much push back against his logic teachings that they were willing to do war over it. It doesn't make much sense for the proto-Romulans to want to nuke the other side over peaceful preaching or the Surak faction having a live and let live attitude. Nor does canon imply it was one sided affair, clearly the logical Vulcans were only to willing to engage in nuclear war too despite being pacifists.

Perhaps they were only truly convinced of the logic of pacifism after the nuclear war.

If Surak lived to see this nuclear war take place, he himself might either have embraced pacifism at that time, explaining why future Vulcans remember him as a pacifist. Alternatively, he might have been a revered philosophical figure in the pro-logic movement, but one who was at first sidelined by more conventional political figures... until such time as the conventional politicians got their side into a nuclear war.

Forced conversions maybe? Holy war on the infidels unwilling to embrace logic? Emotional people attacking the movement they feared without provocation? Hard to say. Either way there was a nuclear war nearly two thousand years before the shows and presumably devastated the planet. It doesn't make much sense for such a near human species to evolve on a world that seems almost completely desert. Could be the planet was relatively lush and Earth like until the War.

Very plausible. It might also help explain how the Vulcans view humans in the 21st century and the run-up to Enterprise.

To 21st century Vulcans, humans look a lot like Vulcans... except for starting their 'inevitable' nuclear war even earlier, and then failing to develop any sort of cultural movement that the Vulcans deem likely to prevent future conflicts. The Vulcan historical narrative would be "we had World War Three as well, and we learned our lesson. Did you learn yours?"

Simon_Jester wrote:]Perhaps they were only truly convinced of the logic of pacifism after the nuclear war.

If Surak lived to see this nuclear war take place, he himself might either have embraced pacifism at that time, explaining why future Vulcans remember him as a pacifist. Alternatively, he might have been a revered philosophical figure in the pro-logic movement, but one who was at first sidelined by more conventional political figures... until such time as the conventional politicians got their side into a nuclear war.

Nuclear war will certainly turn somebody pacifist I'd think.

Surak was alive during the nuclear war, dying of radiation poisoning right before the final battle. I cannot find whether or not he embraced pacifism before the war or decided to embrace it in his final hours while he melted from radiation. Would kinda make sense if he did embrace pacifism while he was at deaths door, nothing says war sucks quite like dying of radiation poisoning.

Very plausible. It might also help explain how the Vulcans view humans in the 21st century and the run-up to Enterprise.

To 21st century Vulcans, humans look a lot like Vulcans... except for starting their 'inevitable' nuclear war even earlier, and then failing to develop any sort of cultural movement that the Vulcans deem likely to prevent future conflicts. The Vulcan historical narrative would be "we had World War Three as well, and we learned our lesson. Did you learn yours?"

That is a VERY good point. Humans are alot like Vulcans in every possible way. They probably viewed humans both with shame in the fact humans were what they themselves once were and probably a bit of envy that the humans are so much more free with their emotions. I'd assume maybe a bit of pride by time the TOS/TNG era considering humans seemed to have embraced logic to some degree, striking a decent balance between emotion and logic.

Joun_Lord wrote:Canon Trek pretty much already has the "Fallout" Vulcan thing confirmed already though nothing to do with genetic engineering. There is mention of a much more war like past including a nuclear war brought upon by Surak's teachings meeting resistance. Apparently there was so much push back against his logic teachings that they were willing to do war over it. It doesn't make much sense for the proto-Romulans to want to nuke the other side over peaceful preaching or the Surak faction having a live and let live attitude. Nor does canon imply it was one sided affair, clearly the logical Vulcans were only to willing to engage in nuclear war too despite being pacifists.

Forced conversions maybe? Holy war on the infidels unwilling to embrace logic? Emotional people attacking the movement they feared without provocation? Hard to say. Either way there was a nuclear war nearly two thousand years before the shows and presumably devastated the planet. It doesn't make much sense for such a near human species to evolve on a world that seems almost completely desert. Could be the planet was relatively lush and Earth like until the War.

The Romulans as far as I know have the same above human strength as the Vulcans but do not have any telepathy. Presumably they don't have telepathy because the Vulcan's overt telepathy is the result of centuries of embracing logic and focusing their minds. Though I'm not sure on that considering the katra stuff was around during Surak's time so maybe Romulan's have the ability to be psychic too but have suppressed it because telepathy scares the bowl cut out of the paranoid and private Romulans.

The problem is that all we know from that era in canon comes from unrelible sources. That said we know for a fact there were psychic weapons that used the targets negative emotitions to kill them (the Stone of Gol weapon from the TNG 2-parter Gambit), Now the Stone of Gol wasn't all that effective being slow to "fire", could be used only at one target at a time essentially and useless if the targets felt no aggression when hit but it was but one item now consider if there was weapons like that only much stronger the devotion to logic and pacifism by most Vulcans doesn't seem that strange and could also explain why those "marching under the raptors banner" (aka those who would become romulans) would prefer to leave rather then fight.

While it was said in the episode that Stone of Gol was dismantled after the embrase of logic by the Vulcan people since it was useless, it would seem logical (especially if the people of that era knew drawback of the weapon) that Surak's teachings would gain popularity after a war where these psychic weapons and nukes were used, so it wouldn't be so much that Stone of Gol became useless after embracing logic so much as logic was embraced because it was known it would make weapons like the Stone of Gol useless. With this solution no Übermench-war isn't needed either, hell it would explain why the emotional vulcans marching under the "raptor's banner" would rather leave then submit themselves to the risk of these weapons used against them.

Joun_Lord wrote: Humans are alot like Vulcans in every possible way. They probably viewed humans both with shame in the fact humans were what they themselves once were and probably a bit of envy that the humans are so much more free with their emotions.

The Vulcan ambassador in ENT (Fallen Hero) flat out said that they have the same emotions as Humans, they're just better at hiding them. So there are probably a good deal of parallels in how humans could have turned out as bad as Vulcans did 2,000 years ago.

Broomstick wrote:Another example, from Enterprise (we're doing a watching binge of late). The episode "The Forge" indicated a schism between mainstream Vulcans of the time and "Syrannites", a different sect apparently considered heretical and/or dangerous (I think this group actually became mainstream by TOS and going forward). Granted, "The Forge" was written and filmed decades after TOS but is a definite example of showing cultural differences/diversity.

the Vulcan arc(it's actually 3-parter "The Forge" is just one of the episodes) was mostly an author's saving throw meant to fix the depiction of of vulcans from arrogant pricks to the dispassionate but decent in their own way that TOS and TNG had.

and the reason why they were considered dangerous was explained too as the high command claimed to follow Surak's teachings but didn't and were quite desperate to not reveal that fact, while the syrannites followed those teachings more closely and indeed either had or were trying to find (I can't remember which) a copy of the orginal teachigs of surak to expose the hypocry of the High Command. In many ways the syrannites resemble the early protestant factions while the High Command takes the role of the pre-reformation Catholic Church.

Lord Revan wrote:

Broomstick wrote:Another example, from Enterprise (we're doing a watching binge of late). The episode "The Forge" indicated a schism between mainstream Vulcans of the time and "Syrannites", a different sect apparently considered heretical and/or dangerous (I think this group actually became mainstream by TOS and going forward). Granted, "The Forge" was written and filmed decades after TOS but is a definite example of showing cultural differences/diversity.

the Vulcan arc(it's actually 3-parter "The Forge" is just one of the episodes) was mostly an author's saving throw meant to fix the depiction of of vulcans from arrogant pricks to the dispassionate but decent in their own way that TOS and TNG had.

That is exactly it, yes.

For the rest of you, think of it like this.

The Vulcan High Command was, at the time of Enterprise, infiltrated by Romulans who were after reunification under their own rule. So Surak's teachings got perverted. A logical and decent society was, basically turned into something akin to a hidebound almost totalitarian state. It does not take a whole lot of work to do something like that. In a logical society if you control what premises people will even conceive of, you can control the conclusions. So the High Command... defined itself into being correct, and used its power to enforce this on others.

But the population at large (and some members of the High Command) legitimately believed themselves to be following Surak's teachings.

When the Syrannites showed up with the original copies of Surak's teachings as well as a copy of his soul they were able to expose the perversion for what it was and shift their society. It took time, but they got better.

It doesn't make much sense for such a near human species to evolve on a world that seems almost completely desert. Could be the planet was relatively lush and Earth like until the War.
.

Wrong. Flat Out Wrong.

Vulcans have a lot of physiological adaptations to living in a desert environment. Nictitating membranes protect their eyes from blowing sand and UV, and they have pretty extreme adaptations to prevent water loss, and have higher tolerances for increased body temperature (they neither sweat nor pant, they have to). They evolved on a hot arid world. It still has other habitats like grasslands, but its oceans are much smaller than earths and so there is less water to evaporate from the seas, and thus less rain. Humans evolved on Savannah and are already pretty good in deserts by large mammal standards.

However, the likelihood that ANY of the aliens in star trek, even the Gorn, would evolve is low. Thankfully, we already know that the basic body plan was seeded by an ancient progenitor race.

The Romulans as far as I know have the same above human strength as the Vulcans but do not have any telepathy. Presumably they don't have telepathy because the Vulcan's overt telepathy is the result of centuries of embracing logic and focusing their minds. Though I'm not sure on that considering the katra stuff was around during Surak's time so maybe Romulan's have the ability to be psychic too but have suppressed it because telepathy scares the bowl cut out of the paranoid and private Romulans.

It is the latter. The Vulcan/Romulan species are capable of telepathy, most are touch telepaths though some (Notably Spock and Tuvok) are able to project and read thoughts at range as well as implant suggestions and compulsions (the most powerful Vulcan telepaths would probably rate P5-P6 on B5 teep scale) and this requires a great deal of practice. The Romulans are not "emotional" the way the Vulcans used to be. They just use a different philosophy to inform their mesiofrontal cortex in how to regulate their emotions. This philosophy seems to require the rejection of the use of telepathy, which, if Vulcans undergo adolescent neural pruning the way people do, would mean that by the time a Romulan is an adult, they are unlikely to be capable of telepathy. Use it or lose it.

Like, if a human were to go through life with actual blinders on from birth, it is pretty likely though not certain, that by the time that person is an adult the neurons that would normally process visual information will be used for something else and the person would be visually impaired. Not because there is anything wrong with their eyes, but because their brain has forgotten how to see.

Now remember the status of telepathy and the mind meld in vulcan society during the Enterprise Era, and remember that bit about Romulan infiltrators/collaborators in their High Command.