replace Voyager with enterprise

[Ted C]

Two Picards
God that was a bad episode. was it a sentient vortex that tried to eat them? I think the original one tore itself apart trying to get away (basically overloaded their engines to escape but overloaded too much).

That would be TNG "Time Squared". From the screencaps at Trekcore, it looks like the Enterprise explodes trying to escape after Picard leaves the ship.

[Eternal_Freedom]

The E-D crashing into Veridian III is a poor example, since the saucer section contains no antimatter (no warp core, no photon torpedoes) and is, according to some of the books meant to be able to crash-land relatively intact.

Galaxy class ships are destroyed due to damage or collisions at least four times:

Cause and Effect: E-D destroyed due to overload after a glancing impact on the nacelle.
Timescape: E-D destroyed by warp core breach after disruptor fire from Romulan warbird.
Generations: E-D destroyed (stardrive section at least) due to, what, 3 torpedo hits to the unshielded stardrive section hull plus dirsuptor hits to the nacelles.
The Jem Hadar: Odyssey destroyed after being rammed by Jem Hadar fighter.

That's not including the Yamato which is destroyed by a computer virus.

[Captain Seafort]

The Sovereign would kick ass up and down the Quadrant... if Riker was commanding;

It depends what sort of mood he was in. BoBW Riker, certainly. One-shot Will would probably loose the Caretaker battle.

Timescape: E-D destroyed by warp core breach after disruptor fire from Romulan warbird.

IIRC it was feedback from the power transfer that caused the breach, not the disruptor fire.

[Themightytom]

Janeway actively sought out the Borg in Scorpion to form her little alliance, which forced the crew's hand. I don't think Picard would do that, as he would rather try and avoid the Borg when possible. The more time Picard and crew take to discuss things, the more the Borg lose against Species 8472.

Yeah I re-watched the episode and you are right, I remembered the Voyager getting caught in the Borg's re-enactment of the Lion King stampede, then being tractored, but those were actually two different scenes. I don't think Picard would necessarily seek them out, he might even gleefully invoke the prime directive, he didn't want to even negotiate when those two planets were fighting over the perfect woman because he thought it wasn't his job.

If the Borg lost more ships to species 8472, 7 of 9 might have died with them, or she might not, Arturus' species might not have been assimilated, saving them that little hassle. I also saw the episode The Void and I'm not even sure the E-D would have fit in the hole that voyager fell through in the first place. If they did, I doubt they would have gotten mugged twenty seconds in, and if they did they might have just taken out the ship that did it.

[Borgholio]

A whole lot would have changed if the E-D was there instead of Voyager. Not being forced to stop as often to scavenge spare parts and fuel, they would be underway more consistently and able to avoid many of the hassles Voyager came across, such as with the Kyrians or the Demon-class planet.

[The Romulan Republic]

The E-D crashing into Veridian III is a poor example, since the saucer section contains no antimatter (no warp core, no photon torpedoes) and is, according to some of the books meant to be able to crash-land relatively intact.

Galaxy class ships are destroyed due to damage or collisions at least four times:

Cause and Effect: E-D destroyed due to overload after a glancing impact on the nacelle.
Timescape: E-D destroyed by warp core breach after disruptor fire from Romulan warbird.
Generations: E-D destroyed (stardrive section at least) due to, what, 3 torpedo hits to the unshielded stardrive section hull plus dirsuptor hits to the nacelles.
The Jem Hadar: Odyssey destroyed after being rammed by Jem Hadar fighter.

That's not including the Yamato which is destroyed by a computer virus.

To be fair, only number one and maybe number two and number five are indicative of weakness. Multiple hits to an unshielded hull or being rammed by a starship are a big deal.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Not really. Witness the shots (both phaser and torpedo) the E-Nil and the Reliant take with no shields in Wrath of Khan. It inflicts damage certainly, but it's not going to make them go boom. Hell, Reliant has her port nacelle blown clean off the ship and the engines aren't overloading.

[Simon_Jester]

In the OP you mention that the saucer section (with the families) could be sent home...why wouldn't they just take the whole ship back?

I always got the impression that the saucer was slower in warp than the combined hull/saucer ship, come to think of it...

As far as destroying the Array is concerned, while Janeway has been criticized for destroying the Array, I think Picard would make the same call, albeit possibly for different reasons. Picard believes in the Prime Directive. The Array's self-destruct was damaged during Voyager's battle with the Kazon, constituting interference. If the same thing happened to Picard, he might feel obligated to mitigate the unintended breach of the Prime Directive. And if it wasn't damaged, he might not keep the Array from self-destructing to avoid interfering.

Picard's big on the Prime Directive, but that big? I don't think he'd feel honor-bound to blow up an inanimate structure because it would otherwise have blown up had he not interfered.

Voyager is also the second TNG era ship know to be able to take decent punishment (up to having relatively large parts on the outer hull missing) and still being useble after repairs) first being the Defiant

Hm. I think that probably has more to do with the limitations of special effects. I mean, Enterprise had chunks cored out of her hull like a melon and yanked out on a tractor beam by the Borg and was largely unaffected in terms of combat performance. She was repeatedly shot with various weapons on various occasions, and still survived. But since in the '80s all the special effects involved models, while by the '90s they were starting to use CGI, there was more flexibility. If your spaceship is a physical model, you really can't scar it up too heavily; if it's CGI it's not so much of an issue.

I could see the Intrepid-class being a responce to the rather poor safety record of the Galaxy-class.

Different missions, different sizes. Now, a more safety-conscious design philosophy designed with more attention to the risk of battle damage may play a role...

Galaxy class ships are destroyed due to damage or collisions at least four times:

Cause and Effect: E-D destroyed due to overload after a glancing impact on the nacelle.
Timescape: E-D destroyed by warp core breach after disruptor fire from Romulan warbird.
Generations: E-D destroyed (stardrive section at least) due to, what, 3 torpedo hits to the unshielded stardrive section hull plus dirsuptor hits to the nacelles.
The Jem Hadar: Odyssey destroyed after being rammed by Jem Hadar fighter.

It sounds like those cases break down in terms of:

1) Jarring the nacelles or warp cores is bad.
2) The ship is vulnerable in the middle of a refueling operation.

(1) is an issue.

Now, are there cases of Galaxies taking nacelle hits and NOT blowing up?

Not really. Witness the shots (both phaser and torpedo) the E-Nil and the Reliant take with no shields in Wrath of Khan. It inflicts damage certainly, but it's not going to make them go boom. Hell, Reliant has her port nacelle blown clean off the ship and the engines aren't overloading.

That was about a century earlier; the weapons may have been weaker (not just in absolute terms, but relative to the defenses available at the time). Reliant may well have been actively better off with a nacelle sheared away structurally than shattered and in a position to blow up while next to the rest of the ship.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Um, the weapons being older wouldn't make a difference, as the ships were older as well. The mere fact that Reliant can take that kind of massive damage and not be about to go kaboom is a strike against the Galaxy design IMO.

As for Galaxies taking nacelle hits and surviving, not that I know of. The only nacelle impacts I can recall have either led directly tot he ship being destroyed (Cause and Effect) or the ship is destroyed anyway (The Jem Hadar, Generations).

[montypython]

Um, the weapons being older wouldn't make a difference, as the ships were older as well. The mere fact that Reliant can take that kind of massive damage and not be about to go kaboom is a strike against the Galaxy design IMO.

As for Galaxies taking nacelle hits and surviving, not that I know of. The only nacelle impacts I can recall have either led directly tot he ship being destroyed (Cause and Effect) or the ship is destroyed anyway (The Jem Hadar, Generations).

DS9 had Galaxies being pounded by Jemhadar ships from all directions and still holding up in one piece and firing back (USS Venture being a notable one), so it's typically the early production batch that had those sorts of problems, rather than the later ones.

[Death Zebra]

Well, Picard wouldn't be able to use his hair to start a fire but then the Enterprise crew probably wouldn't get stranded on a planet by the Kazon in the first place. In fact, since the Enterprise is more powerful, Seska might not wind up defecting to the Kazon at all.

Starfleet and the Federation expands into the Delta Quadrant, giving them access to some interesting technologies when their cold war with the Dominion heats up.

According to The Voyager Conspiracy there's a treaty against that.

And when Q shows up, Picard would probably get him to send the Enterprise back instead of, you know, forgetting to ask.

Janeway did ask in Q2 and he refused as that "wouldn't be setting a a good example.". The Enterprise might be a different matter as they're needed for the events of First Contact.

[Prometheus Unbound]

The E-D crashing into Veridian III is a poor example, since the saucer section contains no antimatter (no warp core, no photon torpedoes) and is, according to some of the books meant to be able to crash-land relatively intact.

It's the only example we have of the two designs under discussion, ramming into a planet.

Warp core and photon torpedoes are irrelavent - Voyager was compacted deck by deck and the crew was killed by the impact, not by the torpedoes exploding or warp core breach (which didn't happen).

You've got two starships (or half a ship, in the Enterprise's case) having a somewhat controlled re-entry, both landing at approx the speed of sound (within an OOM). Voyager's bottom several decks (15-9) were compacted into deck 8. All hands lost. Enterprise -- everyone survived. Unsure of hull destruction.

Galaxy class ships are destroyed due to damage or collisions at least four times:

Cause and Effect: E-D destroyed due to overload after a glancing impact on the nacelle.
Timescape: E-D destroyed by warp core breach after disruptor fire from Romulan warbird.
Generations: E-D destroyed (stardrive section at least) due to, what, 3 torpedo hits to the unshielded stardrive section hull plus dirsuptor hits to the nacelles.
The Jem Hadar: Odyssey destroyed after being rammed by Jem Hadar fighter.

That's not including the Yamato which is destroyed by a computer virus.

Ok I'll take these one at a time:


Cause and Effect: I would not say it was quite "glancing", it shattered the nacelle. It was more than a paint scratch Unsure why the entire ship blew up - some sort of feedback loop thing - it was a chain reaction that did it, not the "glancing blow" itself. Ejection systems were stated to be offline. I give this a "fail". Ejection should pretty much always work.

Timescape: Yes, their warp core was directly fired upon, with shields down, by the strongest ship in the Romulan fleet. That seems "reasonable". I give it a "pass".

Generations: This is more Riker's failing than anyone else's. You can't say in that scenario that the Enterprise herself "gave all she's got", as Scotty would quip. They fired one phaser burst then decided to wait 2 minutes before firing again with one torpedo.

However, yes, multi-megaton weapons which bypassed shields, directly hitting Engineering (they impacted around deck 36) is likely to cause a "coolant leak" - they never blew up the warp core remember - the reactor overloaded cos it got too hot after the coolant systems blew up.

Unsure why they did not attempt a warp core ejection but hey ho. It would have failed anyway I give this a "pass" from the Enterprise's point of view, as a ship. From a crew perspective, that was an abortion of a battle.

The Jem'Hadar: Shields had been taken offline ("divert all shield power to phasers") after they proved usedless against Dominion weapons. The ship was rammed directly into the warp core by another ship. I give this a "pass".

Yamato / Contagion: Well, stupid as it was, the virus did actually just turn off antimatter containment. There was no time to do anything, it just switched off. "Pass" for this one, as well, even if the idea was dumb.

[Lord Revan]

Yamato is in no fucking way a pass, in a case like this the warpcore should have gone in a automatic lockdown as soon it was clear the codes for the reactor codes were compromised, basically the GCS should have had a hardcoded command routine that said "in case warpcore containment control codes are compromised, warpcore and anti-matter fuel pod containment will go into automatic lockdown only maintaining containment and will not accept any commands what so ever, also impulse drive fusion reactors will run essential systems (including anti-matter containment) until control is manually transferred back to the main computer".

And that's assuming you'd want to use the dumb one computer runs everything idea, a better systems would have every vital system run by its own seperate and insulated system so that if you downloaded a virus it would effect only part of the overall systerm instead of crashing the whole thing, hell even have insulated back-up system that kicks in-case the main computer isn't working right, also for things like turning off anti-matter containment you'd really need to have a big "do you really honestly want to do this!?" sign flashing in engineering and the system shouldn't be able to go forward without manual confirmation.

[Eternal_Freedom]

The E-D crashing into Veridian III is a poor example, since the saucer section contains no antimatter (no warp core, no photon torpedoes) and is, according to some of the books meant to be able to crash-land relatively intact.

It's the only example we have of the two designs under discussion, ramming into a planet.

Warp core and photon torpedoes are irrelavent - Voyager was compacted deck by deck and the crew was killed by the impact, not by the torpedoes exploding or warp core breach (which didn't happen).

You've got two starships (or half a ship, in the Enterprise's case) having a somewhat controlled re-entry, both landing at approx the speed of sound (within an OOM). Voyager's bottom several decks (15-9) were compacted into deck 8. All hands lost. Enterprise -- everyone survived. Unsure of hull destruction.

As I recall, Chakotay stated that Voyager hit the ice at full impulse. It was not controlled, whereas in Generations we have Data explicitly saying he's using thrusters to try and level their descent (which he did fairy well, look at the angle the ships impacted at). There is also the point that the saucer section was apparently designed with such a contingency in mind, Voyager was not (it could land properly, so why add crash-landing contingencies to a design?

[Borgholio]

The warp containment should be multi-layered and fully automated. If the primary constriction in the core fails, the backup should take over while at the same time the antimatter feed is cut to the core and / or the reaction is vented outside the ship (think hot water heater pressure release valve). If the feed cannot be cut, then it should be automatically vented outside the ship so the core gets starved of fuel. All of these processes should be fully automatic requiring no user intervention unless it is to stop the process due to a battlefield repair or damaged sensor or something.

If everything above fails and the self-contained and isolated systems detect an overload in process, then a fail-safe mechanism should just blow the whole core out. I like the idea of explosive bolts on the exterior core hatch with a good old-fashioned chemical rocket blasting it out of the ship. Keep it simple. Same goes for the antimatter pods. Blow off hatch and ignite rockets.

[Prometheus Unbound]

As I recall, Chakotay stated that Voyager hit the ice at full impulse. It was not controlled, whereas in Generations we have Data explicitly saying he's using thrusters to try and level their descent (which he did fairy well, look at the angle the ships impacted at). There is also the point that the saucer section was apparently designed with such a contingency in mind, Voyager was not (it could land properly, so why add crash-landing contingencies to a design?

Well I'd say firstly we saw the thing - that was *not* full impulse. That was a couple hundred meters per second.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdG_kxttT0M

[youtube]xdG_kxttT0M[/youtube]

The snow was not vapourised when they touched it, it "blew" in the wind. You can see them go over the mountains. It's *fast* but it's not Impulse. It's around the speed of sound, within an order of magnitude.

"Full impulse" comes from Chakotay's mouth? The person on the shuttle who was hundreds of lightyears ahead of them in another dimension at the time?



Secondly; why would they put "crash landing contingencies" on a ship *designed* to land? ... well... in case they crashed? lol

The saucer was not "designed" to crash land - it was capable of it. Voyager, too, was not "designed" to crash land - but considering that was designed to enter an atmosphere and land, the idea that it might not work 100% right must have been built into the design... surely?

Modern aircraft are designed with "crash landing contingency" in mind.

Any in any case, it's neither here nor there - the Ent-D survived with less damage than the Voyager did.

[Eternal_Freedom]

[

Secondly; why would they put "crash landing contingencies" on a ship *designed* to land? ... well... in case they crashed? lol

The saucer was not "designed" to crash land - it was capable of it. Voyager, too, was not "designed" to crash land - but considering that was designed to enter an atmosphere and land, the idea that it might not work 100% right must have been built into the design... surely?

Any in any case, it's neither here nor there - the Ent-D survived with less damage than the Voyager did.

Surely they'd put contingencies in the design? Really? This is from the same Starfleet designers who built the Galaxy with all its aforementioned lack of contingencies in something as lethal as antimatter containment and venting?

As for the E-D surviving with less damage, that's also neither here nor there, Picard explicitly states she can't be salvaged. So in ship terms, the E-D was totalled by the impact just as Voyager was,and did not "survive." The crew survived, but again, the saucer was built with such a crash-landing in mind, hence the light casualties. Voyager clearly wasn't built with a crash-landing in mind, or certainly not one like that: no doubt it would better withstand a crash while landing in a controlled manner, or on takeoff, but evidently not a full-tilt crash from orbit.

In out-of-universe terms, Voyager died so they'd have a "we can go back and fix it"story, while the E-D died but saved the crew so they could mvoe to the shiny new E-E. At any rate, the Galaxies do not have a good safety record.

EDIT: At least the early ships of the class don't anyway. Later versions seem to handle themselves better.

[Prometheus Unbound]

Surely they'd put contingencies in the design? Really? This is from the same Starfleet designers who built the Galaxy with all its aforementioned lack of contingencies in something as lethal as antimatter containment and venting?

Name every time the ship blew up because of that.

Once? (or 17, depending on how you look at it)?

As for the E-D surviving with less damage, that's also neither here nor there, Picard explicitly states she can't be salvaged. So in ship terms, the E-D was totalled by the impact just as Voyager was,and did not "survive."

No, but no one died. *everyone* on Voyager died from hitting the ground. No one on the Enterprise did. the Enterprise rammed a hill and cut it in half, remember?

The crew survived, but again, the saucer was built with such a crash-landing in mind, hence the light casualties. Voyager clearly wasn't built with a crash-landing in mind, or certainly not one like that: no doubt it would better withstand a crash while landing in a controlled manner, or on takeoff, but evidently not a full-tilt crash from orbit.

In out-of-universe terms, Voyager died so they'd have a "we can go back and fix it"story, while the E-D died but saved the crew so they could mvoe to the shiny new E-E. At any rate, the Galaxies do not have a good safety record.

EDIT: At least the early ships of the class don't anyway. Later versions seem to handle themselves better.

Galaxies do not have a horrendous record. We covered it above. Every destruction bar one is explainable and "normal" and not related to the Galaxy per se. The Enterprise specifically just happens to come across a lot of god-like beings, black holes and wormhole temporal anomaly cosmic antimatter string blobs. Which is weird. I guess that documentary crew picked the right ship to observe for Big Brother season 3484.

Voyager, defiant and even Runabouts have all had "ejection systems offline". It's not Galaxy-centric. Starfleet-centric, perhaps


In any event, even if the Galaxy saucer is *designed* to do that - well... then it's *designed* for it. Therefore it's not a "weak" ship. from what that ship has been through, I think it did quite well.

As they said on SG1 "I don't think the International Space Station is up to the task".

It's passed warp 10, gone back in time, forward in time, taken on a Borg Cube at point blank, gone to the centre of the galaxy, gone to the end of the universe, phased in and out of space-time....

[Eternal_Freedom]

Surely they'd put contingencies in the design? Really? This is from the same Starfleet designers who built the Galaxy with all its aforementioned lack of contingencies in something as lethal as antimatter containment and venting?

Name every time the ship blew up because of that.

Once? (or 17, depending on how you look at it)?

For Galaxies, not just the E-D:

Yamato, thanks to computer virus
Cause and Effect, can't eject the core
Yesterday's Enterprise, coolant leak, core ejection isn't even mentioned as a way to deal with it
Generations, no ejection system (a line for line remake of the Yesterday's Enterprise example, amusingly).
Disaster (ship almost destroyed due to loss of containment, core ejection apparently not possible).

4 explosions and one partial where they're saved at the last minute. That's just off the top of my head.

As for the E-D surviving with less damage, that's also neither here nor there, Picard explicitly states she can't be salvaged. So in ship terms, the E-D was totalled by the impact just as Voyager was,and did not "survive."

No, but no one died. *everyone* on Voyager died from hitting the ground. No one on the Enterprise did. the Enterprise rammed a hill and cut it in half, remember?

Oh please, they didn't "ram a hill and cut it in half." They shattered the top.

The crew survived, but again, the saucer was built with such a crash-landing in mind, hence the light casualties. Voyager clearly wasn't built with a crash-landing in mind, or certainly not one like that: no doubt it would better withstand a crash while landing in a controlled manner, or on takeoff, but evidently not a full-tilt crash from orbit.

In out-of-universe terms, Voyager died so they'd have a "we can go back and fix it"story, while the E-D died but saved the crew so they could mvoe to the shiny new E-E. At any rate, the Galaxies do not have a good safety record.

EDIT: At least the early ships of the class don't anyway. Later versions seem to handle themselves better.

Galaxies do not have a horrendous record. We covered it above. Every destruction bar one is explainable and "normal" and not related to the Galaxy per se. The Enterprise specifically just happens to come across a lot of god-like beings, black holes and wormhole temporal anomaly cosmic antimatter string blobs. Which is weird. I guess that documentary crew picked the right ship to observe for Big Brother season 3484.

Voyager, defiant and even Runabouts have all had "ejection systems offline". It's not Galaxy-centric. Starfleet-centric, perhaps

It being an endemic problem is worse than it being just the Galaxies. The Galaxy class was apparently rushed into service, as evidence from "Booby Trap" (IIRC) where we learn they only designed the engines and warp core a year before the E-D was commissioned.

And I don't accept your "explanations" for the incidents, especially the "Cause and Effect" one. I jsut wentback and checked the episode, the impact doesn't shatter the nacelle. The Bozeman's nacelle grinds along the top side of the E-D's nacelle, then the E-D's nacelle explodes from within, suggesting an overload or something. It's also worth noting that the Bozeman, despite taking the same kidn of hit, did not have it's nacelle explode like that.

[Prometheus Unbound]

And I don't accept your "explanations" for the incidents, especially the "Cause and Effect" one. I jsut wentback and checked the episode, the impact doesn't shatter the nacelle. The Bozeman's nacelle grinds along the top side of the E-D's nacelle, then the E-D's nacelle explodes from within, suggesting an overload or something. It's also worth noting that the Bozeman, despite taking the same kidn of hit, did not have it's nacelle explode like that.

It's almost like I used the words "chain reaction"


the "glass" shatters, and blue shit leaks out. It was shattered.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Still doesn't excuse the fact that it happened to the E-D, but not to the Bozeman, or indeed to Reliant when she takes a lot worse damage to her nacelle.

[Crazedwraith]

Did we even see what Happened to the Bozeman after the collision?

In out-of-universe terms, Voyager died so they'd have a "we can go back and fix it"story, while the E-D died but saved the crew so they could mvoe to the shiny new E-E. At any rate, the Galaxies do not have a good safety record.

EDIT: At least the early ships of the class don't anyway. Later versions seem to handle themselves better.

If you bring up out-of-universe terms, everything can be explained as rule of drama anyway.

We all know exactly why the E-D was in frequent danger of blowing up. In the name of drama. Yes, suspension of disbelief but it still gets tiresome. Like jokes about stormtrooper accuracy.

[Prometheus Unbound]

Still doesn't excuse the fact that it happened to the E-D, but not to the Bozeman, or indeed to Reliant when she takes a lot worse damage to her nacelle.

v0v

[Prometheus Unbound]

Did we even see what Happened the the Bozeman after the collision?

nope


and ppl going on about the Reliant - well, that was the "kill" shot. At that point, Khan set the self destruct. Cos he had nothing left. It was a mission kill.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Yeah, a mission kill, not the ship blowing itself up due to engine damage. And he armed Genesis, not a self-destruct.