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There was that episode of DS9 where they had that sniper rifle w/ a transporter integrated into it, and it made me scratch my head... why not just beam an air bubble into the target's brain or something, if you wanted to just kill them, and it's more evidence of compact special-purpose transporter technology. I think that Singular Intellect hit the nail on the head when he said that we don't see a better explanation or use of these tactics simply because it'd be too easy to turn the transporter into a panacea...

biostem wrote:I know there's an example from Voyager where they are able to transport all humanoids in a given area without a direct target lock, but my question is sort of doing the inverse of this - intentionally transporting away an incomplete piece of something. For instance, let's say you needed to get through a solid wall - are there any instances where they were able to transport away a 2M circular area or something?

I suppose part of my question also entails asking how the transporters can sort of determine what defines a "whole something". For instance, a naturally occurring rock wall can be composted of several rocks packed together w/ some sort of medium/melted rock/sediment acting as a mortar. Can the transporter pick out individual rocks, from what we've seen, or is it a "whole" in the platonic sense?

We've seen the transporter transport Troi and her mother w/o clothing in an episode of TNG, so it can distinguish that, and there's one episode of, I think Voyager, where they transport some people that were abducted back in the early 20th century, and it disabled one of their weapons - so it can target specific things and/or alter them too.

Any insights into this matter?

Thanks!

STVOY: Deadlock - Foetal transport performed
STVOY: Heroes and Demons - "part" of a gas cloud is beamed aboard (turned out to be alive - Beowulf episode - not sure if that counts)
Multiple episodes - Disarming of weapons from 20th century guns to phasers

Napoleon the Clown wrote:Transporters take, what, thirty or more seconds to transport something?

6 seconds up, 6 seconds down.

Ted C wrote:

biostem wrote:Let's say you knock out your opponent ship's shields. Why not just start transporting away components that are either vital or just chunks of the ship?

Why not just transport the crew out under those circumstances?

No one ever tries, so it must not be practical. My guess is that even without shields, starships still have "transport inhibitor" technology operating to protect the ship and crew from hostile beam-out. That's why they have to beam boarders onto the target instead of beaming enemies out.

Oh, they can - Starfleet just doesn't, cos it's mean.

Every time they've done a "take out their shields" so they can beam someone onboard (convict, prisoner, abducted crewman, whatever) they can beam them into space.

They just dont.


Seska did it once to some Kazon dudes and left them floating there.

biostem wrote:There was that episode of DS9 where they had that sniper rifle w/ a transporter integrated into it, and it made me scratch my head... why not just beam an air bubble into the target's brain or something, if you wanted to just kill them, and it's more evidence of compact special-purpose transporter technology. I think that Singular Intellect hit the nail on the head when he said that we don't see a better explanation or use of these tactics simply because it'd be too easy to turn the transporter into a panacea...

That rifle may have been able to shoot through walls via the transporter, but the episode also showed us in detail how the rifle was used including first person POV shots of the HUD. The aiming device was controlled with some type of trackball, and the target was spotted by eye with a scope that showed rooms like a security camera would. So its likely that this is a targeting or sensor issue, not a transporter issue. You need to identify your target before opening fire, and its difficult to do so while looking at them in MRI mode. Plus, since there are numerous things that could foil the mini-transporter (like all transporters), you might as well give it the ability to fire as a normal sniper rifle as well.

Plus, the design was experimental. It was never issued, even though for some damn reason they kept the specs just lying around for any Federation personnel to replicate if they wanted to (iirc one of the prime suspects DS9 investigated was a weapons collector who had one). Supposedly it was for use against the Borg, which neatly explains why an over-engineered transporter weapon was set aside for the more practical pulse phasers the Voyager crew preferred.

Clearly the real difficulty transporters have as a mode of transportation is in getting the target to its destination without beaming them into solid objects, that much is clear.

Wasn't the transporter on the TR-114 rifle supposedly added by O'Brien to prove that's what was being done?

Possibly, been a while since I saw the episode. I think you are right. But I remember the props pretty well, and they did a little bit too good a job of integrating the transporter bits into the design (like the trackball being directly part of the frame).

Formless wrote: Supposedly it was for use against the Borg

Nope. Just for use when phasers were a bad idea, such as in dampening fields. Borg were not mentioned in that episode.

Formless wrote:Possibly, been a while since I saw the episode. I think you are right. But I remember the props pretty well, and they did a little bit too good a job of integrating the transporter bits into the design (like the trackball being directly part of the frame).

Yeah, Darth Wong had the theory that this was Federation propoganda to avoid admitting they'd built a weapon ideal for assassination.

Of course, it's possible that the trackball was included as part of the stock scope/sensor package and was re-tasked.

Prometheus Unbound wrote:Oh, they can - Starfleet just doesn't, cos it's mean.

How does this explain why no one else (Cardassians, Klingons, Romulans, etc.) does it?

Prometheus Unbound wrote:Every time they've done a "take out their shields" so they can beam someone onboard (convict, prisoner, abducted crewman, whatever) they can beam them into space.

They just dont.

In my memory, I can't think of a situation in which they did so that didn't involve a technologically inferior adversary.

Prometheus Unbound wrote:Seska did it once to some Kazon dudes and left them floating there.

Seska beamed those guys off of her own ship.

The general trend with transporters is that it's easier to beam something to a location than to beam something from a location. Obtaining a lock and then generating a pattern are the usual barriers to beaming up a target.

A communicator or other friendly locator device on the target helps get the lock, but it isn't always enough, so they take pattern enhancers when they expect retrieval trouble.

Ted C wrote:

Prometheus Unbound wrote:Oh, they can - Starfleet just doesn't, cos it's mean.

How does this explain why no one else (Cardassians, Klingons, Romulans, etc.) does it?[/quote] budget? I don't know. It's a perfectly valid tactic.

Prometheus Unbound wrote:Every time they've done a "take out their shields" so they can beam someone onboard (convict, prisoner, abducted crewman, whatever) they can beam them into space.

They just dont.

In my memory, I can't think of a situation in which they did so that didn't involve a technologically inferior adversary.

Seriously?

Prometheus Unbound wrote:Seska did it once to some Kazon dudes and left them floating there.

Seska beamed those guys off of her own ship.

well good for her. She still did it.

Trek galaxy doesn't. Why? I have no fucking idea. Budget, the "good" future... whatever.

Prometheus Unbound wrote:

Ted C wrote:

Prometheus Unbound wrote:Oh, they can - Starfleet just doesn't, cos it's mean.

How does this explain why no one else (Cardassians, Klingons, Romulans, etc.) does it?

budget? I don't know. It's a perfectly valid tactic.[/quote]

How does it get around the problem of the shields on the ship doing the transport ?

I would see this as an ideal tactic for a cloaked vessel to undertake - get within transporter range of an unsuspecting target, and transport away piece of their antimatter containment unit, or simply transport a torp right into their engine room. I suppose one could argue that the scans necessary to beam something IN would be active and thus picked up by the target ship, but they don't seem to raise shields at the first signs of an unknown signal.

An even subtler tactic would be to use the transporter to switch pieces and/or plant incriminating evidence. Imagine if a Romulan scout snuck up on a Fed ship and teleported in a mobile data device or something, which supposedly contained classified info.

Lastly, let's say there was a mission taking place between Fed and other groups - the other group offers to transport the Feds over to help w/ some issue, and places a small transmitter in one of the crew members during said transport.

bilateralrope wrote: How does it get around the problem of the shields on the ship doing the transport ?

well this would be after they're taken down, obviously

Prometheus Unbound wrote:

bilateralrope wrote: How does it get around the problem of the shields on the ship doing the transport ?

well this would be after they're taken down, obviously

Why do you expect a ships captain to take down their own shields just so they can use transporters instead of the weapons they just used to take down the shields of the other ship ?

If the other ship still has weapons, that would be stupid. If it doesn't, why do you want to beam the ships crew into space ?

bilateralrope wrote:

Prometheus Unbound wrote:

bilateralrope wrote: How does it get around the problem of the shields on the ship doing the transport ?

well this would be after they're taken down, obviously

Why do you expect a ships captain to take down their own shields just so they can use transporters instead of the weapons they just used to take down the shields of the other ship ?

If the other ship still has weapons, that would be stupid. If it doesn't, why do you want to beam the ships crew into space ?

I dunno lol. I'm just saying, it's perfectly possible to do.

bilateralrope wrote:

Prometheus Unbound wrote:

bilateralrope wrote: How does it get around the problem of the shields on the ship doing the transport ?

well this would be after they're taken down, obviously

Why do you expect a ships captain to take down their own shields just so they can use transporters instead of the weapons they just used to take down the shields of the other ship ?

If the other ship still has weapons, that would be stupid. If it doesn't, why do you want to beam the ships crew into space ?

If the other ship's shields and weapons were already disabled, and you decided you wanted to take the ship whole, simply beam the crew out - either into space or into your own brig. Make sure to start w/ the command crew so no one can start a self destruct, of course.

I would see this as more of a surprise tactic before the other ship knew you were there, (cloaked ship, etc).

bilateralrope wrote:

Prometheus Unbound wrote:

bilateralrope wrote: How does it get around the problem of the shields on the ship doing the transport ?

well this would be after they're taken down, obviously

Why do you expect a ships captain to take down their own shields just so they can use transporters instead of the weapons they just used to take down the shields of the other ship ?

If the other ship still has weapons, that would be stupid. If it doesn't, why do you want to beam the ships crew into space ?

If the other ship's shields and weapons were already disabled, and you decided you wanted to take the ship whole, simply beam the crew out - either into space or into your own brig. Make sure to start w/ the command crew so no one can start a self destruct, of course.

I would see this as more of a surprise tactic before the other ship knew you were there, (cloaked ship, etc).

Prometheus Unbound wrote:

Prometheus Unbound wrote:

bilateralrope wrote: How does it get around the problem of the shields on the ship doing the transport ?

well this would be after they're taken down, obviously

Why do you expect a ships captain to take down their own shields just so they can use transporters instead of the weapons they just used to take down the shields of the other ship ?

If the other ship still has weapons, that would be stupid. If it doesn't, why do you want to beam the ships crew into space ?

I dunno lol. I'm just saying, it's perfectly possible to do.[/quote]

You also said:

It's a perfectly valid tactic.

I'm pointing out that it isn't a valid due to the shields on the ship with the transporter. Which is why nobody does it.

If the other ship's shields and weapons were already disabled, and you decided you wanted to take the ship whole, simply beam the crew out - either into space or into your own brig. Make sure to start w/ the command crew so no one can start a self destruct, of course.

Dying to a warp core breach will be preferable to dying from vacuum. So you'll need to take out everyone who can start a self-destruct and anyone who could breach the warp core with a phaser, or any other weapon/tool they have lying around engineering.

Transporter operators are probably also a high priority target as they could start doing the same to your crew. A last ditch defense against you beaming their crew into space will be to tell their ships computer to start beaming away your crew until you put your shields back up.

Have magnetic fields disrupted transporters ?
Because anti-matter containment is magnetic and/or a force-field. If it's a force-field, then it's probably strong enough to mess with transporters. So I'm not sure it would be possible to beam away parts of anti-matter containment.

biostem wrote:I would see this as more of a surprise tactic before the other ship knew you were there, (cloaked ship, etc).

As a cloaking tactic it is questionable. I vaguely remember that, on the DS9 episode where they went back in time to TOS era, that they had to decloak the Defiant to transport. They only went undetected because they could decloak, transport and cloak again between sensor sweeps. Which probably won't be possible against a ship with with sensors from the same century as the cloaking device. What other evidence is there about transporter use on a cloaked ship ?

As a surprise attack when they think you're a friendly ship, beaming in a bomb sounds viable. But how will the attacker convince them that they are friendly ?
Is there a better use for the resources required ?

They undeniably transport from and onto a cloaked BoP in TVH and while the only sensors to worry about were 20th century ones, given they parked the ship in the middle of a park I do think decloaking for that was contraindicated (despite the fact that they were seriously low on power), and if memory serves at least the transport that got Dr Whatshername aboard definitely happened while the ship was cloaked. It was seriously short ranged and only two persons, but it is apparently not a case of cloaked=no way you can use transporters period.

Batman wrote:They undeniably transport from and onto a cloaked BoP in TVH and while the only sensors to worry about were 20th century ones, given they parked the ship in the middle of a park I do think decloaking for that was contraindicated (despite the fact that they were seriously low on power), and if memory serves at least the transport that got Dr Whatshername aboard definitely happened while the ship was cloaked. It was seriously short ranged and only two persons, but it is apparently not a case of cloaked=no way you can use transporters period.

I see two ways to reconcile that with the DS9 example:
1 - Changes made to cloaks between TOS and DS9 had the side effect of preventing transporters working while cloaked.
2 - There TVH cloak was modified to allow transporters to work, but those modifications would have also made the cloak useless to sensors that are present in TOS, but not in the 20th century. The modification could be as simple as a setting change on the cloaking device.

bilateralrope wrote:

Batman wrote:They undeniably transport from and onto a cloaked BoP in TVH and while the only sensors to worry about were 20th century ones, given they parked the ship in the middle of a park I do think decloaking for that was contraindicated (despite the fact that they were seriously low on power), and if memory serves at least the transport that got Dr Whatshername aboard definitely happened while the ship was cloaked. It was seriously short ranged and only two persons, but it is apparently not a case of cloaked=no way you can use transporters period.

I see two ways to reconcile that with the DS9 example:
1 - Changes made to cloaks between TOS and DS9 had the side effect of preventing transporters working while cloaked.
2 - There TVH cloak was modified to allow transporters to work, but those modifications would have also made the cloak useless to sensors that are present in TOS, but not in the 20th century. The modification could be as simple as a setting change on the cloaking device.

I would think that the fact that the Defiant had a Romulan cloak would inherently cause some problems with cloaking a Federation vessel - one that was not designed from the start to be cloaked. There are several examples where it's talked about how delicate and demanding of a process it is to properly cloak a ship, and mentions of the Defiant's excessive power generation for a ship of its size may be partly to blame.

Have we ever seen an example where the self destruct mechanism to a ship was disabled, and the crew resorted to trying to detonate it with a hand phaser? I mean, the Romulans were able to capture Prometheus, (that ship that could split into 3 pieces), without that happening...

I'd also like to point out that there was that episode where a group of con-men were hiding in a cloaked ship and using their tech to pretend like they were the devil, trying to call in some sort of contract the planet's populace had made centuries ago. They were able to use transporters, holograms, and various other technobable means to cause earthquakes and so on, from a cloaked ship...

Have we ever seen an example where the self destruct mechanism to a ship was disabled, and the crew resorted to trying to detonate it with a hand phaser?

This happened twice I can recall, only they didn't try to blow the core with a phaser.

In VOY Basics, the Kazon take out the secondary command processors, rendering the auto-destruct non-operational. While Janeway and Co. try to figure out what to do, Voyager is subsequently boarded and taken over. It's been a while since I've seen this episode, but I'm pretty sure that if they seriously wanted to blow the ship, they could have.

In ST:NEM, the auto-destruct sequence fails due to heavy damage to the Enterprise-E. Picard and company watch on with blank expressions while the Photon Mixmaster deploys itself when they should be blowing the warp core by any means necessary. After that, Picard goes all gung-ho and decides to go headhunting on Shinzon's warship.

And we know as of Nemesis that they have tiny little one-off transporter devices too.

Nitpick: those aren't transporters, those are "isolinear tags" which allowed the Son'a to lock onto the Baku, despite the local interference.

Darth Lucifer wrote: Nitpick: those aren't transporters, those are "isolinear tags" which allowed the Son'a to lock onto the Baku, despite the local interference.

No... Data used a 1-shot tiny transporter to beam Picard back from that big Romulan ship to the Enterprise in Nemesis, and at the time the ship's transporters were down, (which is why only Picard could be sent back).

Why no one thought to use one of the shuttle's independent transporters to save them both is beyond me...

I'd also like to mention that in Insurrection, that holo-ship seemed to be equipped with some sort of special transporter system which would have been able to seemlessly transport the entire town over to the environment inside it, (although we never see it work for any kind of confirmation of this).

biostem wrote:I'd also like to mention that in Insurrection, that holo-ship seemed to be equipped with some sort of special transporter system which would have been able to seemlessly transport the entire town over to the environment inside it, (although we never see it work for any kind of confirmation of this).

We do see the transporter in action, even the effect it causes, during the battle Ent-E vs Ruafo. The screen went white for a second and none of the bridge crew where aware of being transported. Until the sensor guy told Ruafo that there is no change in the radiation readings of the rings.