StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Yeah but their shields were down at the time.

In Q Who. Not in New Grounds or Booby Trap.

I don't recall them saying anything about the photons endangering the ship in 'Booby Trap', and they fire them anyway at the end of the episode to take out the Promellian vessel. But I remember that they had to power down their systems at one point to escape the power-draining trap they were in.

I'm not familiar with 'New Ground'. Can you elaborate on your two examples?

They had to evacuate parts of the hull due to radiation dangers from their own torpedoes in both instances, and the final photon salvo in Booby Trap happened []after[/i] they had moved out of the minefield. I'm talking about the original one.

Batman wrote:They had to evacuate parts of the hull due to radiation dangers from their own torpedoes in both instances,

Yes, and they said that the shields had 'gaps' in them which is what prompted the evacuation order. Their shields were on minimal power:

New Ground script wrote: WORF
Deflector strength down to twelve
percent. There are fluctuations
in several warp transfer
conduits. Transporters and
tractor beams off-line.

Riker sees something on his station monitor.

RIKER
We have some gaps in the aft
shields, Captain.
(pointing to monitor)
When the torpedoes explode, these
areas will be contaminated with
ion radiation.

65A ON RIKER'S MONITOR (OPTICAL)

Which shows an Okudagram diagram of the Enterprise.
There are several areas at the stern of the ship which
have been highlighted.

RIKER
(indicating monitor)
We should evacuate sections
twenty-four to forty-seven on decks
thirty-five through thirty-eight.

65B RESUME SCENE

PICARD
Make it so---

and the final photon salvo in Booby Trap happened []after[/i] they had moved out of the minefield. I'm talking about the original one.

I'm still not seeing what you mean here. Their power was drained during the episode so they couldn't fire on the vessel anyway, and their shields were steadily going down.

EDIT I checked the script for 'Booby Trap' and it doesn't mention photon torpedoes until the very end of the episode. Are you thinking about the radiation danger from the Promellian booby trap?

The danger of that final salvo doesn't figure into it as they had already moved out to a safe distance? I have to admit I had forgotten about their shields already having been worn down (in my defense, I think the german version never mentions there being gaps in the shields).
Still leaves us with New Ground, where there was to my recollection no mention of any drain on the shields than the torpedoes.

Batman wrote:The danger of that final salvo doesn't figure into it as they had already moved out to a safe distance? I have to admit I had forgotten about their shields already having been worn down (in my defense, I think the german version never mentions there being gaps in the shields).
Still leaves us with New Ground, where there was to my recollection no mention of any drain on the shields than the torpedoes.

Um the script excerpt I posted is from 'New Ground' - that's the one where it says the shields are at 13% and there are 'gaps in the aft section' where an evacuation is used as a precautionary measure. Even then the shields are still up so it's not like they're in danger of self-immolation.

'Booby Trap' is the one I am confused about, because it sounds like you're saying they didn't fire the torpedoes until after they had reached a safe distance from the Promellian vessel, but that's a separate issue (they were in the asteroid field and had their power drained which is why they didn't just destroy the vessel outright - they had to get out of the field first because of the radiation combined with the power draining attack from the booby trap).

Yeah, it's not like 'New Ground script' at the top of your quote wasn't a dead giveaway. My bad.

Isn't having your shields down a common risk in a battle situation? I think the problem of being blown up by your own torpedos stands, unless the designers honestly assumed that ships would never lose shields in a fight.

Darth Tedious wrote:Isn't having your shields down a common risk in a battle situation? I think the problem of being blown up by your own torpedos stands, unless the designers honestly assumed that ships would never lose shields in a fight.

It's the proximity that's the issue. Shields go down and so on but if the torpedoes explode too close while your shields are down then you're toast. But if you get hit by the enemy while your shields are down you're toast anyway.

And that proximity happens often enough for it to be an issue, leading me to believe that maybe massively increasing photorp yields wouldn't be such a hot idea.

Well it must not be such a huge issue then because they did increase the torpedo yields later on in the show - in 'Genesis' Picard mentions they had received upgrades to their weapons and Worf comments on it being a 11% increase (yes I know that isn't a massive increase, you don't need to point that out). Also quantum torpedoes apparently are more destructive than photorps were but we don't really know by how much.

'We don't know by how much' (if any) being the operative term. Also, how did Chuck put it? 'Prove that quantum torpedoes are anything but photon torpedoes set to 'blue'.'
And just for the record, the lone photon torpedo fired in The Motionless Picture was blue.

Batman wrote:'We don't know by how much' (if any) being the operative term.

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Quantum_torpedo

They are demonstrably more powerful than photon torpedoes based on several instances in DS9 and FC. Four q-torps were enough to completely disable a Cardassian Keldon-class vessel, while in comparison the Enterprise fired half a dozen photon torpedoes in 'Yesterday's Enterprise' against a Kvort-class vessel and it only resulted in 'moderate damage'. Four q-torps alone destroyed the shieldless borg sphere when the shieldless cube was taking hit after hit of photons and phasers and didn't blow up until their fire was concentrated on a single vulnerable location (while the q-torps hit the sphere along a line rather than on the same spot). We also see photorps give smaller detonations than the q-torps did with the sphere.

Also, q-torps came part and parcel with the Defiant, and Sisko commented on how the ship was designed for one purpose: to fight and defeat the Borg. It follows that its weapon systems would feature heavily in this regard. It's pretty disingenuous to claim that q-torps are just photorps dressed in blue when everything about them screams 'weapon upgrade'.

Also, how did Chuck put it? 'Prove that quantum torpedoes are anything but photon torpedoes set to 'blue'.'

Well a) I don't give a fuck what Chuck thinks and even if I did it wouldn't make a compelling rebuttal and b) the canon descriptions of q-torps actually is a lot different to photorps, the former being a plasma warhead and the latter being an anti-matter one. They're obviously not going to be hugely different from each other since q-torps need to be launched out of a tube as well and it would be more cost effective if Starfleet made things come out of the same tube without needing an extensive refit, but at the same time well there are differences otherwise they wouldn't be considered an 'upgrade' like what the Lakota received. Actually the Lakota is a good example, as O'Brien commented on 'that's a lot of firepower to pack onto an Excelsior class ship' and Admiral Leyton actually ordered Benteen to use the quantum torpedoes despite her protestations that she had been ordered to disable rather than destroy the Defiant.

And just for the record, the lone photon torpedo fired in The Motionless Picture was blue.

Yes and if this were relevant then you'd have a point. They were called photon torpedoes therefore they weren't quantum torpedoes, which hadn't even been invented then.

Phasers used to be blue in TOS as well, but red-orange in TNG and DS9. Whoopdeedoo.

Stofsk wrote:They are demonstrably more powerful than photon torpedoes based on several instances in DS9 and FC. Four q-torps were enough to completely disable a Cardassian Keldon-class vessel, while in comparison the Enterprise fired half a dozen photon torpedoes in 'Yesterday's Enterprise' against a Kvort-class vessel and it only resulted in 'moderate damage'. Four q-torps alone destroyed the shieldless borg sphere when the shieldless cube was taking hit after hit of photons and phasers and didn't blow up until their fire was concentrated on a single vulnerable location (while the q-torps hit the sphere along a line rather than on the same spot). We also see photorps give smaller detonations than the q-torps did with the sphere.

Those are some horrid comparison examples you've named there. How do we know that Keldon Class and Kvort Class ships are even in the same league as one another? And the Borg sphere was far smaller than the cube!

That said, I'm not actually contending that quantorps are less powerful than photorps.

There is a possibility which should be considered in the anti-Borg aspect of them- all photorps work the same way, while quantorps may have some 'random factor' to them which makes them a better weapon against the Borg without actually having higher yield (having a higher yield in addition to this would be a bonus ).

I'd love to point to a line of dialogue of someone going 'you know, ain't it great quantum torpedoes have a much higher yield than photon torpedoes - let me count the ways in which they're completely better as a weapon system' but I'm grateful there isn't, because dialogue like that sucks.

Connor MacLeod wrote:It could be that english is not his first language, and he's laundering these discussions through some sort of online translation program. There's someone on Spacebattles named Drakbolo who sounds exactly like this and whom I suspect of doing the exact same thing.

When I had mod powers in ASVS.org I was able to look up his IP address (I've since forgot what it was) and it came out to somewhere in the Sourthern U.S.. My mind is saying California with a possibility of it being Florida.

As for having a disability, it isn't much of an excuse even here. There is more leeway but in the end even those with disabilities are mocked if they step out of line.

I have a simple resolution for the Q-torp quandry: like photon torpedoes, they come in a wide variety of configurations and performance scales (including the dial a yield scale) I'm sure that there are some Q-torps that perform not much better than certain kinds of Photorps. For all we know the improvement curve of the two designs isn't the same either (photorps are a much more longer-established and mature technology, so they should be easier to work with.. whereas Q-toprs are relatively newer, and may be prone to all sort sof adjusments or changes. It's not evne possible they might reduce the yield somewhat for various reasons - cost, reliability, safety, etc.)

Besides, I can think of a few reasons why you might not want Q-torps to be consistently, vastly more powerful than photorps - one being that it makes the Voyager episode "Dreadnought" more of a pain in the ass to cope with than it already is.

Does anyone here by any chance known how powerful of a blast anti-matter pod give off when it explodes?

Biiiig.

Seriously, it'd depend on how big the pod is. It's like asking "how big a fire do you get from setting a can of gas on fire?" Depends on how big the can is- is it one of the little things you refuel your lawnmower from, or is it a 55 gallon drum?

Even if you detonate an antimatter pod, not all of the antimatter will explode at the same time. Chance are a good chunk would be pushed away from the blast.

Sorry to go off topic, but is JasonB a spambot of some kind? I've read through all his posts just now, and EVERY SINGLE ONE is Trek related, and asking a question about it. Wierd...

Captain Spiro wrote:Sorry to go off topic, but is JasonB a spambot of some kind? I've read through all his posts just now, and EVERY SINGLE ONE is Trek related, and asking a question about it. Wierd...

No, just an idiot. One that never concedes. Just wait for any of his threads to go old and he'll necro the hell out of it.

He wouldn't happen to be the guy you said "your Pakled mind tricks won't work here" to?

Enigma wrote:Even if you detonate an antimatter pod, not all of the antimatter will explode at the same time. Chance are a good chunk would be pushed away from the blast.

The exact properties of the explosion will vary even if you use the same pod too. Is the pod a sphere? Chances are, no, it's a cylinder or some other object. Is the shot dead on or off to the side? That depends on your gunner, and that's one shot you just need to knick it to set it off, so precise gunnery isn't needed. Is there a traditional explosive surrounding the anti-matter on a timer? If so, is it synchronous or just there to go boom? There are tons of variables that can make the explosion more or less power and even alter the way the pressure expands. Explosions aren't perfect spheres, especially if the explosive isn't packed uniformly or in a sphere, so that can have a huge impact.

Also, the power dissipates by the inverse of the radius squared, meaning that doubling the distance between the enemy and the pod decreases the power against that same enemy by a factor of four. Sure, close by there's almost nothing that can withstand it, but if you move far enough away, the explosion will just fizzle against your shields.