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Simon_Jester wrote:Command qualification usually entails knowledge of basic shiphandling. If it didn't, you'd have a lot more captains accidentally crashing their ships by ordering them to sail into rocks or other ships or dangerous storms.

Shiphandling is one thing, knowing what button to push is another.

Captain Seafort wrote:

Simon_Jester wrote:Command qualification usually entails knowledge of basic shiphandling. If it didn't, you'd have a lot more captains accidentally crashing their ships by ordering them to sail into rocks or other ships or dangerous storms.

Shiphandling is one thing, knowing what button to push is another.

An example, perhaps, of the pernicious influence of the Roddenberry? (Granted, he didn't really have any input on Generations IIRC, it being after his death?)

Bear with me. His vision of Starfleet wasn't a military as much as it was glorified suits flying about space. The Roddenberryian concept was civilian space explorers using a quasi-military structure to run their affairs. Under these circumstances, a superior officer could have a theoretical concept of how certain operations are performed, but have little to no practical experience due to being devoted to their specialty, versus the real-world military where quite frequently officer candidates have to go through a minimum of basic training and learning certain essential functions of most roles in the military in order to perform their jobs. Does a Colonel in the USAF know how to fix a jet engine? Not necessarily, but he probably knows damn well how it works, and probably had to take one apart at some point as part of his training. Ditto radar/avionics, weapons, and so forth.

Starfleet, on the other hand, apparently does not require this type of broad knowledge base in their officers, at least in the TNG era. They believe they can afford for their officers to be extremely specialized and that if there is a shortfall in one area, they will bring in an officer who is familiar with that function. So for officers that are not expected to serve regularly in a secondary position, they might only expect them to hit the bare minimum of proficiency and allow them to get by with that. So Troi passes bridge officer certification, but her day to day job is still ship's counselor (and why the hell they have a ship's counselor sitting by the Captain on the bridge I'll never know, damn you Gene) and she rarely (almost never) has reason to put the bridge-officer certification to the test because there's always a qualified officer on hand for the most part.

I could be off base, haven't slept in a long time...

Themightytom wrote:Simon covered my response. also I just discovered that somebody out there actually took the time to do this
Star trek voyager intro featuring the Enterprise-…: http://youtu.be/IWg68e9k1tQ

Pretty. But it did have to miss out the best/most complex shot of Voyager parting the nebula thingie.

you know I just re watched the battle scene from generation and I have to say not only is Troi not incompetent but Riker can't really be blamed
here either, at least in the battle.
Troi took the helm and just literally continued the maneuver the previous pilot started, riker went back to tactical, asked worf about any tactical weaknesses and actually came up with the idea to force the BOP back into cloak. Worf only got one shot off at the BOP which didn't bother it and he didn't really bother with anything elae until he fired the one torpedo. It was really only the last torpedo from the klingons that caused the breach too.

Troi engaged impulse to get clear of the blast but the.explosion knocked the helm controls offline. Data only got auxiliary power to restore some control when they were already skimming mountains.

Maybe Crusher could have done a better job, she didnt notice the transmitter in Geordi's visor and cleared him for duty right when he got back from being tortured.

Crusher isn't an engineering officer, nor was she worried about the possibility of the visor being compromised. She was concerned with getting Geordi back on his feet. In an emergency such as the one they had, they probably couldn't afford to have Geordi sit it out. He could rest and recover after the emergency, after all, but they need his knowledge right then and there. Light duty should have been ordered, but meh.

Just from what Themightytom said, I'm willing to shift my stance a bit to lay a fair amount of criticism at Worf's feet. Fired once, no damage, didn't rotate shield frequency, didn't detect an unauthorized transmission, all of it. It's like he just phoned in that day. "mumble mumble Klingon ritual mumble mumble" Unless he was depressed because getting dunked in the water caused him to lose his powerful and mighty Klingon musk.

Captain Seafort wrote:

Simon_Jester wrote:Command qualification usually entails knowledge of basic shiphandling. If it didn't, you'd have a lot more captains accidentally crashing their ships by ordering them to sail into rocks or other ships or dangerous storms.

Shiphandling is one thing, knowing what button to push is another.

Given that we routinely see the helm position being handed off between officers and extras on a regular basis, I suspect that the Trek setting has gotten the hang of a user-friendly helm interface. I would be surprised if in Star Trek they teach shiphandling without teaching you the basics of how to pilot a ship.

Elheru Aran wrote:Bear with me. His vision of Starfleet wasn't a military as much as it was glorified suits flying about space. The Roddenberryian concept was civilian space explorers using a quasi-military structure to run their affairs. Under these circumstances, a superior officer could have a theoretical concept of how certain operations are performed, but have little to no practical experience due to being devoted to their specialty, versus the real-world military where quite frequently officer candidates have to go through a minimum of basic training and learning certain essential functions of most roles in the military in order to perform their jobs. Does a Colonel in the USAF know how to fix a jet engine? Not necessarily, but he probably knows damn well how it works, and probably had to take one apart at some point as part of his training. Ditto radar/avionics, weapons, and so forth.

Starfleet, on the other hand, apparently does not require this type of broad knowledge base in their officers, at least in the TNG era. They believe they can afford for their officers to be extremely specialized and that if there is a shortfall in one area, they will bring in an officer who is familiar with that function. So for officers that are not expected to serve regularly in a secondary position, they might only expect them to hit the bare minimum of proficiency and allow them to get by with that. So Troi passes bridge officer certification, but her day to day job is still ship's counselor (and why the hell they have a ship's counselor sitting by the Captain on the bridge I'll never know, damn you Gene) and she rarely (almost never) has reason to put the bridge-officer certification to the test because there's always a qualified officer on hand for the most part.

I could be off base, haven't slept in a long time...

Well, the point is that she's got certification, she should know the basics that such certification entails: the ability to handle the ship and run the key stations on a basic level. Which stations vary, but since helm is probably the single most common one to be reassigned during an emergency, it is the one most likely to be part of bridge officer certification.

I mean, I never saw Roddenbury intending to portray Federation officers as overspecialized. The chief engineer seems to understand all shipboard systems, the weapons officers understand all the weapons. People like Riker and Picard who are in a generalized command track seem to have pretty good knowledge of all systems they encounter.

Someone like Crusher or Troi, of course, does have a primary specialization and might really only know that particular subject well... but if they're certified to fly the ship, it's safe to assume they actually know how to fly the ship. And a "bridge officer" certification that doesn't include "this is how to fly the ship in an emergency" isn't a very complete certification program.

As to why they have the counselor sitting by the captain... that might actually just be Picard's idea for all I know. Troi is an empath, and her empathic abilities routinely prove helpful to Picard when he's engaged in negotiations. Since Picard spends a LOT of time engaged in diplomacy, and often uses diplomacy as the main tool in his toolkit, having his single most valuable diplomacy-assistant at his side at all times can be advantageous to him.

If it weren't common practice for the ship's counselor to be on the bridge by the captain aboard the Enterprise prior to Picard's tenure, I imagine Picard would have ordered Troi to make it so.

I have been nursing a private theory that Troi was actually there for Picard, more than the crew. maybe he didn't bounce back from the Stargazer incident quite as easily as at first glance and second guessed himself horribly after that. I would hate to think commanding a starship with over a thousand crew is considered a supported employment option in the future, but then again, look at Starfleet's "penal" system.

If Troi is the ship's counselor... for a ship that large... and she spends an eight hour shift on the bridge, she is probably not actually doing her job well for the rest of the crew.

Which actually would make the events of Caretaker REALLY interesting in terms of Picard's reaction now that I think about it, I mean it's bad enough he loses some crew who have served under him for eight years but... AGAIN??

Picard has lost lots of crew members over the years. But I don't know how many of those were long term crew members and most of them weren't part of his inner circle. The only one of his top officers on the Enterprise who permanently perished is Data.

Edit: Actually, I recall hearing about some way Data could have been brought back. But since Nemesis fucked the franchise, it didn't happen.

The Romulan Republic wrote:Picard has lost lots of crew members over the years. But I don't know how many of those were long term crew members and most of them weren't part of his inner circle. The only one of his top officers on the Enterprise who permanently perished is Data.

Edit: Actually, I recall hearing about some way Data could have been brought back. But since Nemesis fucked the franchise, it didn't happen.

Don't forget Tasha Yar.

Oh yes. How could I forget poor Tasha Yar? Especially when I've been playing Star Trek Online, where her daughter is a major villain.

In regards to Troi being there for Picard, wouldn't one of the things they check for be competence to command? I mean, he had to defend himself in a bitter court martial, and thus prove he'd been competent at the time, but surely other than disenchanting him of the glory of command, he'd still be qualified and capable. Given the situations he's been in throughout the show.

Then again, I've always secretly believed Troi was there as a political officer, watching the crew and Picard and happening to become friends with them. But I mean, just look at how she speaks and acts. And you can tell she's not giving everyone the full account of what's going on. That or she really is that blindingly stupid.

Not this shit again. There is no solid evidence I am aware of that the Federation has political officers.

Themightytom wrote:I have been nursing a private theory that Troi was actually there for Picard, more than the crew. maybe he didn't bounce back from the Stargazer incident quite as easily as at first glance and second guessed himself horribly after that. I would hate to think commanding a starship with over a thousand crew is considered a supported employment option in the future, but then again, look at Starfleet's "penal" system.

Starfleet repeatedly indicates that they have confidence in him professionally. It IS possible that Troi is watching Picard more closely than she's made out to be, though, I guess.

If Troi is the ship's counselor... for a ship that large... and she spends an eight hour shift on the bridge, she is probably not actually doing her job well for the rest of the crew.

I'd be honestly surprised if she spends an eight hour shift on the bridge, since she usually isn't there unless the ship is sailing into some situation where you'd expect Picard to have called her up.

Baffalo wrote:Then again, I've always secretly believed Troi was there as a political officer, watching the crew and Picard and happening to become friends with them.

Uh... it's entirely believable that she seeks to do that anyway without being a political officer.

But I mean, just look at how she speaks and acts. And you can tell she's not giving everyone the full account of what's going on. That or she really is that blindingly stupid.

That's very nonspecific. Could you be more precise?

The Romulan Republic wrote:Not this shit again. There is no solid evidence I am aware of that the Federation has political officers.

It's my pet theory and I have to let it out every now and again to give it some air and stretch it's legs or else I get in trouble with the local law enforcement on mistreatment of animals.

Simon_Jester wrote:

But I mean, just look at how she speaks and acts. And you can tell she's not giving everyone the full account of what's going on. That or she really is that blindingly stupid.

That's very nonspecific. Could you be more precise?

Meh, mostly it just feels like, to me anyway, that she's overly vague with a lot of her feelings and guidance. I can only think of one instance off the top of my head when she gave a reasonably straight forward account of the situation, and that was when Picard was gone and the Enterprise was handed over to Captain Jellico. She comments the following:

Chain of Command pt. 1 wrote:Riker: Well, I'll say this for him - he's sure of himself.
Troi: No, he's not.

I understand that emotions are tricky things and vague impressions from a being with almost no physical similarity to yourself is hard, but how many times has she said something that, if removed from the script, wouldn't add or subtract anything?

A Matter of Perspective wrote:Riker: We can't both be telling the truth.
Troi: It is the truth... as you each remember it.
Riker: Yes, but her version puts a noose around my neck."

I rather hate this line because as an empath, Troi should have a better grasp on what's going on. Flashes of intense anger when the depiction was wrong, embarrassment when it was revealed something scandalous... but no. Instead, she's playing the "You're both right and wrong" card, which is a cheap cop out.

Then again I tune out Troi a lot of times so if someone can point to another example of her being useful...

btw has it ever been explictily mentioned that Troi is the only councilor onboard the Enterprise?

She's routinely referred to as 'the' ship's councilor, never as 'one of our ship's councilors', 'our head ship councilor' and so on in ways that would indicate there's others.

Batman wrote:She's routinely referred to as 'the' ship's councilor, never as 'one of our ship's councilors', 'our head ship councilor' and so on in ways that would indicate there's others.

Crusher did, however, comment in The Loss that "There are several people on board who have degrees in psychology, who are qualified therapists."

Captain Seafort wrote:

Batman wrote:She's routinely referred to as 'the' ship's councilor, never as 'one of our ship's councilors', 'our head ship councilor' and so on in ways that would indicate there's others.

Crusher did, however, comment in The Loss that "There are several people on board who have degrees in psychology, who are qualified therapists."

Which actually suggests that Troi IS the only counselor despite a pool of qualified candidates.

Picard "lost" Geordi (And Ro) when they had the transporter accident with the Romulans... the cold motherfucker just went business as usual! he DID get weepy about Data, the first time too, when the guy who was the collector faked his destruction, he got somewhat sentimental about Yar, although the crew was still fairly knew. I was under the impression he was very close to the Stargazer crew from the way he described them in The Battle but maybe his brain was addled by the globe.

...Did Janeway really even remark on her mass casualties during the events of caretaker? i don't think I can remember her mentioning a memorial service. It was a couple days on the caretaker array, and a few more days in space making repairs, but I don't think she had one.

Baffalo wrote:

Simon_Jester wrote:

But I mean, just look at how she speaks and acts. And you can tell she's not giving everyone the full account of what's going on. That or she really is that blindingly stupid.

That's very nonspecific. Could you be more precise?

Meh, mostly it just feels like, to me anyway, that she's overly vague with a lot of her feelings and guidance. I can only think of one instance off the top of my head when she gave a reasonably straight forward account of the situation, and that was when Picard was gone and the Enterprise was handed over to Captain Jellico. She comments the following:

Chain of Command pt. 1 wrote:Riker: Well, I'll say this for him - he's sure of himself.
Troi: No, he's not.

I understand that emotions are tricky things and vague impressions from a being with almost no physical similarity to yourself is hard, but how many times has she said something that, if removed from the script, wouldn't add or subtract anything?

Maybe, but the characters don't normally act as though she isn't contributing. Maybe her empathic readings are helpful to them even if they sound like vague Madame Cleo stuff to us.

I have recollections of multiple occasions where she alerts the crew of the Enterprise to treachery, the presence or absence of life forms, or provides clues as to the intentions of strange and exotic forms of life (including superbeings). Even when she doesn't independently fix everything, she still provides confirmation of important questions and so on.

Themightytom wrote:

Captain Seafort wrote:

Batman wrote:She's routinely referred to as 'the' ship's councilor, never as 'one of our ship's councilors', 'our head ship councilor' and so on in ways that would indicate there's others.

Crusher did, however, comment in The Loss that "There are several people on board who have degrees in psychology, who are qualified therapists."

Which actually suggests that Troi IS the only counselor despite a pool of qualified candidates.

There's a difference between "the counselor" and "the psychiatrist." For example, 'counseling' would probably include talk therapy but not prescription of psychiatric medications. So "ship's counselor" may be a specific job description which includes vetting the mental stability of senior officers and the morale of the crew or some such, while the medical branch as a whole also has one or more psychiatrists/psychologists other than the counselor.

Simon_Jester wrote:

Themightytom wrote:Which actually suggests that Troi IS the only counselor despite a pool of qualified candidates.

There's a difference between "the counselor" and "the psychiatrist." For example, 'counseling' would probably include talk therapy but not prescription of psychiatric medications. So "ship's counselor" may be a specific job description which includes vetting the mental stability of senior officers and the morale of the crew or some such, while the medical branch as a whole also has one or more psychiatrists/psychologists other than the counselor.

I don't understand how that isn't entirely evident from what was posted earlier am i missing something?