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The Ambassador design holds a special place in my appreciation purely for the actions of the E-C, which got a far more noble death off-screen than the E-D got in a whoel damn film. Oh well.

I also like it because, on Star Trek: Bridge Commander, it's the only Federation ship (of 5, the others being Akira, Galaxy, Nebula and Sovereign) that has phasers firing aft.

Skywalker_T-65 wrote: That's the thing though...it doesn't look like an Excelsior at all. I could understand it being the bridge design if it resembled the older one. But all it looks like is a primitive Galaxy. At least that's my opinion on it.

Part of that was budget concerns in building the model; Andrew Probert's original concept was thought to possibly take too long and too much money to build in time for Yesterday's Enterprise.

This size chart by Probert shows an Ambassador much more like an intermediate step than the model that was built:

^ Yes, that is what I would have expected it to look like. I actually like that version, to bad they didn't use it.

Honestly i'm sad they didn't use Probert's original design for Galaxy as the Galaxy. It ended up becoming Ambassador in the long run but I feel this...



Looked much better than Galaxy. The hull and saucer are in proportion to each other which I think I've realized is the key to a good looking Enterprise design. I hear that the model for the Galaxy class was very unwieldy because of its poor balance and the crew had to do things like film it upside down because of it.

*sigh* You can't hotlink EAS pictures, CaptHawkeye.

I love the Galaxy, for purely emotional reasons. Every Wednesday night, as a boy, I saw that ship examined up close, than zipping around to a brass section, and i knew that I was about to see some sci-fi adventure goodness.

Lily/Lilian Slone. She would probably remember Picard mentioning his ship to her. And considering how gushing the Feddies were about Cochrane, they more than likely let slip the name of their ship.

While I love the Galaxy design, I really, really love that Probert painting of the prototype design. It's one of the reasons why I love the Ambassador-class too.

edaw1982 wrote:Lily/Lilian Slone. She would probably remember Picard mentioning his ship to her. And considering how gushing the Feddies were about Cochrane, they more than likely let slip the name of their ship.

Troi did, when they show him the E-E in his telescope:

"That's our ship, the Enterprise."

You know what's a bit hard to do, find a Nebula class ship that survived past the Dominion War.

Bellaphon-Destroyed in Wolf 359.
Farragut-Destroyed by the Klingons while enroute to deliver relief troops.
Honshu- Destroyed while delivering Dukat to trial.
Lexington Destroyed by the Borg in the Battle of 001.

For survivors, we have the Bonchune, the T'kumbra, the Sutherland, and others which are never mentioned after one episode.

Of course, I think the poor Miranda got the worst of it, but that's probably to be expected from a 90 year old ship. Which ship did get killed the most?

FaxModem1 wrote: Lexington Destroyed by the Borg in the Battle of 001.

We don't know that. All we heard was "96 dead, 22 wounded on the Lexington." It clearly had a bad day, but not necessarily a fatal one for the ship.

Am I hallucinating or does the Probert version look slightly sleeker than the finished Galaxy?

This was the image.

FaxModem1 wrote:Which ship did get killed the most?

The Miranda by far. At least 3 or 4 were popped in Sacrifice of Angels alone. To be honest I struggle to remember a point past TWOK where a Miranda did anything other then explode.

Sounds like it was an obsolete design that got thrown into combat because the Federation was desperately short on ships during the Dominion War.

I've always hated how desperate they make the Federation look during these wars. How is the Federation still around when it's beset on all sides by powers who are hellbent on its annihilation?

Yesterday's Enterprise was the absolute worst in this regard. The Federation spent 75 years saving the Klingon Empire from its own self destructive stupidity, and how do the Klingons repay them? By declaring war on them every time Gowron or some Klingon General has a temper tantrum. They fucking declared war on the Federation over an outpost the ROMULANS attacked. How stupid does it make the Federation look that it helped these people get out of a potentially civilization ending disaster like Praxis exploding, and they show their gratitude by killing Federation citizens and soldiers?

The Federation is somehow still around, thanks in no small part to the constant intervention of various deus ex machinas. But hey, i'm sure i'm not the first person to complain about the quality of the writing.

The Romulan Republic wrote:Sounds like it was an obsolete design that got thrown into combat because the Federation was desperately short on ships during the Dominion War.

Yeah, it was the point where one of my roommates in college and I jokingly called the Mirandas cannon fodder for the Jem'Hadar.

CaptHawkeye wrote: They fucking declared war on the Federation over an outpost the ROMULANS attacked.

IIRC, it was not that in the other timeline the Klingons attacked the Federation because of the Romulan attack on the outpost, it was that in the regular time-line the actions of the Enterprise C improved relations enough to avoid war.

So the Klingons were still planning on launching a war even after the Federation literally saved their civilization? That still makes them look like idiots. It could be argued that the changing culture of the Klingons led to them "forgetting" about what the Federation had done for them, but then this just begs the question as to why the Federation was still propping them up. *If* the Klingons had found a replacement for Praxis by this point, and were no longer relying on the Federation for aid, then that just totally undermines everything Kirk and Co. worked for in Star Trek 6 and basically shits all over the conclusion of the original movies.

Yes. But Yesterday's Enterprise was written before Star Trek 6, irrc. They can hardly been accused of shitting over something they know nothing about yet.

The status of the klingons was really up in the air in early TNG, there are some statements that they are allies but also some that they've joined the Federation lock stock and barrel.

It was. YE first aired in 1990 while TUC didn't hit theaters until late 1991.

CaptHawkeye wrote:So the Klingons were still planning on launching a war even after the Federation literally saved their civilization? That still makes them look like idiots. It could be argued that the changing culture of the Klingons led to them "forgetting" about what the Federation had done for them, but then this just begs the question as to why the Federation was still propping them up. *If* the Klingons had found a replacement for Praxis by this point, and were no longer relying on the Federation for aid, then that just totally undermines everything Kirk and Co. worked for in Star Trek 6 and basically shits all over the conclusion of the original movies.

I don't think that's necessarily true, on a couple counts. For one, Praxis was a moon of Kronos, and while its energy production and explosion certainly crippled Kronos, the Klingon Empire was a multi-system, multi-planet, colonial empire. While to the Klingons there at the time, it must have seemed like the end of the Empire was nigh, the Empire could have survived it, and doubtless Klingons in later generations believed that as a propaganda piece anyway, to diminish how much help the Federation actually gave them (as Gowron later rewrote history about the Klingon Civil War to reduce the Federation's role in it).

Secondly, I don't see it as "shitting" on anything, I see it as more of a continuation of the story that really has its first arc moment in STVI. In STVI, despite having been bitter enemies of and suffering deep personal loss to the Klingons, Kirk and company act to reconcile the two powers and prevent them from going back to war. This first act, with the offer of help to recover from Praxis's explosion, forms the foundation of a cease-fire and allows the potential to grow into allies in the future. However, the Klingons are still warlike, expansionist, and proud, and it wouldn't be hard for the Federation to offer too much "help", or refuse to help in a war between the Klingons and another enemy, and thereby cool relations down to merely cease-fire levels, rather than allies (as happened in DS9).

The story of the alliance between the two powers is the continual fractious relationship between the Federation, who are basically decent and prefer peaceful solutions, and the Klingons, who are basically honorable, but prefer warfare solutions. Decent and honorable don't always get along, especially when their preferred/default problem-solving methods are so different. The Federation would almost have to continually make gestures that shows they're willing to fight on behalf of their allies, make common cause against enemies, and so on, just to maintain the (clearly beneficial) alliance.

Crazedwraith wrote:Yes. But Yesterday's Enterprise was written before Star Trek 6, irrc. They can hardly been accused of shitting over something they know nothing about yet.

While not canon, Keith R.A. DeCandido's Lost ERa novel The Art of the Impossible -- and to an extent, David R. George's Serpent Among the Ruins -- delves into the pre-TNG Klingon politics.

Following Khitomer, the Klingons begin rebuilding their society and reluctantly accept Federation aid. However, Azetbur is eventually assassinated and her successor, Ditagh, rolls back almost all of her pro-Federation/rebuilding policies, leaving the Klingon economy in a rut (he also passes a law forbidding Klingon women from serving on the High Council, thus clearing that up continuity error).

Then, the Betreka Nebula Incident kick-starts the 18-year Klingon-Cardassian cold war and Ditagh's successor, Kravokh, uses it to jump-start the Klingon economy. Long story short, Kravokh has an obsession with the Cardassians and starts gearing up for a full-on war. Like Ditagh, he neglects the Federation alliance. Because of the deterioration in relationships, the Federation grows worried and wary of the rearmament and start prepping for a war.

The attack on Narendra III comes in the nick of time. Because of Cardassian-Klingon Cold War -- and the self-imposed isolation following the Tomed Incident - the Klingons had taken their eyes off the Romulans. The attack reminds them of how dangerous their old enemies still are, which leads the Council to start patching up the damage.

It also weakens Kravokh's position, since Klingon Intelligence had warned the High Council of a possible Romulan incursion. This was subsequently ignored due to both the Council's mistrust and Kravokh's obsession with Cardassia. The Romulan attack on the Khitomer is the last straw due similar circumstances to Narendra III. Kravokh is deposed by K'mpec in ritual combat and a pro-alliance Chancellor helps seal the deal.

Anyway, in the alternate timeline, the Enterprise-C's disappearance was viewed as a cowardly withdrawal by the Klingons and led to the pursuit of a rapprochement with the Romulans. We can assume that Kravokh or the High Council dropped the Cardassia obsession and, with old tensions and deteriorated relationships, used this as an excuse to invade their old enemy.

Also, about 50 years separate the Praxis explosion and the destruction of the Enterprise C. It still makes the Klingon's ungrateful bitches, but a significant amount of time did pass.

Though, whenever I watch Star Trek 6 I can't help but think Cartright had it right.

spaceviking wrote:Though, whenever I watch Star Trek 6 I can't help but think Cartright had it right.

Makes you wonder how Cartwright would have reacted to the Federation's condemnation of the Cardassian invasion and Gowron pulling out of the Khitomer Accords in retaliation. He may have felt vindicated.