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Alyeska wrote:

Fleet Admiral Thompson wrote:For your claims about the firepower, you are wrong.

This I gotta see.

The standard Sovereign supports 12 type XII phaser arrays and 3 photon/quantum torpedo launchers.

BZZT! The correct answer is 12 Type-12 phasers, 1 quantum torpedo turret, and 4 photon torpedo launchers. The Sovereign II design (which is the new standard) sports 16 Type-12 phasers, 1 quantum torpedo turret, and 8 photon torpedo launchers.

The Prometheus, when merged, supports 13 type XII phaser arrays, and 3 torpedo launchers.

BZZT! The correct answer is 12 Type-12 phasers and 2 torpedo launchers.

even when merged, it outguns the Sovereign by one array.

BZZT! The Sovereign I has an equal number of phasers and three more launchers then the Prometheus. The Sovereign II has 4 more phasers and 7 more torpedo launchers. Furthermore you are ignoring the fact that larger arays pack more firepower. The three primary arrays on the Sovereign (one top and two bottom) are significantly larger then anything on the Prometheus and seriously outgun it.

Not that that would make much of a difference, but I just thought I'd point that out.

Actualy it makes a serious difference. The Sovereign II has double the torpedo launchers on just the front or rear alone. It also has a serious phaser advantage seeing as the Sovereign sports larger arrays then the Prometheus.

As for your claims about the MVAM, the three ships seperated are much smaller than the merged vessel, and are likely more maneuverable as well.

Irrelevent. They will be just as easy to hit and easier to kill. Now when the Sovereign puts just 1/3 the firepower on target it can take out 1/3 of the Prometheus's firepower. Had the Prometheus been latched together it would not have suffered such catastrophic loss of power.

Each section can be controlled by the bridge, each section is warp capable, and each section has every system that operates independently of the bridge section.

All of which makes the ship inferior in combat.

Ok, how the hell are speed, agility, and small size a disadvantage? Also, where are you getting all of this shit about the Sovereign II? If you are getting this from Nemesis, remember one thing: the Enterprise is the Federations flagship. They will be more heavily armed than standard Sovereign class ships, which the Starship Spotter book says carry 12 type 12 phaser arrays and 3 torpedo launchers. I do believe you are correct about the one quantum launcher, however. And, yes, this book is canon, since Michael Okuda and Rick Sternbach contributed. Prove all of your claims about Sovereign firepower. The Prometheus is also equiped with ablative armor and regenerative shielding. Each section operates independantly, so that even if the Bridge section is destroyed, the other two sections can escape or continue fighting.

If you are getting this from Nemesis, remember one thing: the Enterprise is the Federations flagship. They will be more heavily armed than standard Sovereign class ships

Um, no. That doesn't follow at ALL. A Federation flagship would, if anything, mount FEWER weapons and more science/diplomatic facilities. A general upgrade to the class, however, to make them more combat-capable, makes a great deal of sense in the wartorn post-Dominion environment.

Each section operates independantly, so that even if the Bridge section is destroyed, the other two sections can escape or continue fighting.

... Both of which would lead to defeat. We are asking which ship would win, to which you have just replied "Well, when it looses, the Prometheus can run away! Or it can stay and fight and get it's ass kicked, because it just lost 1/3rd of it's firepower!"

Which is in essence a concession.

And, yes, this book is canon, since Michael Okuda and Rick Sternbach contributed.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't film the only trek Canon, with only 1 or 2 exceptions?

Thirdfain wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't film the only trek Canon, with only 1 or 2 exceptions?

That's true. But we can dream that when producers etc ocntribute to technical books, they are close to canon. But they're not official canon so I guess that doesn't matter.

That's true. But we can dream that when producers etc ocntribute to technical books, they are close to canon. But they're not official canon so I guess that doesn't matter.

Certainly, I'd imagine, far less canon that what we see in Nemesis, no?

This goes to the Sovereign "Not Designed By Utter Retards" Battleship, not the Prometheus "MVAM is fuckin sweet, let's have another bong hit and write some more Voyager scripts" Cruiser.

Fleet Admiral Thompson wrote:Ok, how the hell are speed, agility, and small size a disadvantage?

Lets look at it this way.

For the sake of argument the Prometheus has a total defensive power of 99 when combined and 33 per section when seperated. Lets assume that the Sovereign has a total offensive power of 35.

If the Prometheus stays together it will take three shots for the Sovereign to knock it out. After firing one shot the Sovereign will still be facing 100% of the Prometheus's offensive capability.

Now lets seperate the Prometheus. The Sovereign fires and BOOM, the Prometheus looses 33% of its firepower. Now the Sovereign is facing only 2/3 the total power. By seperating the Prometheus made itself more vulnerable to enemy fire.

Also, where are you getting all of this shit about the Sovereign II? If you are getting this from Nemesis, remember one thing: the Enterprise is the Federations flagship.

BZZT! Wrong again. When the Enterprise was first comissioned she was weaker then she was durring Nemesis. Furthermore we have never seen evidence that the Flagship is ever more powerful then the rest of the ships in the class. The Soverign I is the design shown in First Contact and Insurrection. The Sovereign II is the version shown in Nemesis. This is a fairly significant upgrade of the design and represents a new standard.

They will be more heavily armed than standard Sovereign class ships, which the Starship Spotter book says carry 12 type 12 phaser arrays and 3 torpedo launchers. I do believe you are correct about the one quantum launcher, however.

And where is your proof that the Enterprise is any more heavily armed then your standard Sovereign? All we have for comparison is previous Enterprise ships and there is no evidence that any Flagship was ever more powerful. Furthermore your book is incorrect. The Sovereign I has 4 photon torpedo launchers and 1 quantum torpedo turret. Your book is off by 2 launchers.

And, yes, this book is canon, since Michael Okuda and Rick Sternbach contributed.

Which means fuck all since the book is wrong.

Prove all of your claims about Sovereign firepower.

Watch the movies you dipshit. The Sovereign has 12 Type-12 Arrays, 4 Photon Torpedo launchers, and 1 Quantum Torpedo turret. The Sovereign II has 12 phasers, 8 photon launchers, and 1 quantum.

The Prometheus is also equiped with ablative armor and regenerative shielding.

And so does the Sovereign II design (which is the new standard)

Each section operates independantly, so that even if the Bridge section is destroyed, the other two sections can escape or continue fighting.

Which is a useless ability.

FAT, if you're not going to respond point by point, don't bother quoting the entire previous post in your response, especially if it's a long post. It's annoying. Now, onto the rebuttal:

Fleet Admiral Thompson wrote:Ok, how the hell are speed, agility, and small size a disadvantage?

They're not. However, they're not advantageous enough to overcome the serious disadvantages of MVAM. Speed and agility don't help if the enemy ship's firing arcs cover all angles of approach, and however small the pieces of the Prommie are, they're bigger than ships we've seen Sovereigns blast easily. MVAM actually allows the Sovereign to concentrate more fire on the Prometheus, since logically the Sovereign can't fire all her weapons at once at a single target but can if three targets approach from three different angles. And each piece is weaker than a whole ship. Not to mention, the damage they do cause will be spread out across the shield grid, rather than focused on battering down one spot.

MVAM is no help at all against a single target with good weapons coverage. That leaves the Prommie in single-ship mode vs. our Sovereign, and Alyeska already explained to you how badly a single Prommie is outgunned.

Also, where are you getting all of this shit about the Sovereign II? If you are getting this from Nemesis, remember one thing: the Enterprise is the Federations flagship. They will be more heavily armed than standard Sovereign class ships,

Proof?

which the Starship Spotter book says carry 12 type 12 phaser arrays and 3 torpedo launchers. I do believe you are correct about the one quantum launcher, however. And, yes, this book is canon, since Michael Okuda and Rick Sternbach contributed.

Paramount canon policy is very clear. If it's not on screen with live actors and no special exceptions have been made, it's not canon. Period. No such exception has been made for the book in question. Anything is says is, at best, speculation, and overridden by Nemesis.

Prove all of your claims about Sovereign firepower. The Prometheus is also equiped with ablative armor and regenerative shielding.

Aly has already handled this part.

Each section operates independantly, so that even if the Bridge section is destroyed, the other two sections can escape or continue fighting.

Which is much more likely to happen, thanks to the stupid MVAM design.

hmmm sounds like the Promtheous was designed to break up groups of Jem`hdar bugs by seperating into MVAM.

from what Alyeska is saying it sounds like , using WW2 naval terms, the Prometheous is a torpedoeless light cruiser trying to take on a heavy cruiser or battleship .Sure it has speed on its side and a smaller profile but it doesnt have the mass that will allow it to endure a prolonged fight nor the heavy firepower.

The thing that the MVM violates is it divides your force in the face of an enemy and gives them a chance to destroy you in detail.If you can puilll it off you will do great damage to the enemymess up and you are dead

Fleet Admiral Thompson wrote:Ok, how the hell are speed, agility, and small size a disadvantage?

Speed: More speed = less armor & weapons for simmilar mass. Check out the story of the British battlecruisers at Jutland (WWI).
Agility: Good for WWI & II fighters in dogfights with forward firing weapons. Less valuable when you got 360 fields of fire and ST ships have IIRC never been agile enough to dodge torpedoes.
Small size: Less able to sustain damage without losing critical systems, the smaller the ship the more liely a hit is to take out something vital.

Fleet Admiral Thompson wrote:How does agility affect weapons targeting?

Not enough to compensate for the weak shields.

Typhonis 1 wrote:hmmm sounds like the Promtheous was designed to break up groups of Jem`hdar bugs by seperating into MVAM.

Prometheus is probably intended for a high speed raider.
Approach the target at high speed and take out it's main defences then break and strike multiple targets by using the MVAM. Recombine and run before the enemy strike back. Using MVAM against really strong hostiles is not a good idea.

Typhonis 1 wrote:The thing that the MVM violates is it divides your force in the face of an enemy and gives them a chance to destroy you in detail.If you can puilll it off you will do great damage to the enemymess up and you are dead

Usually a very bad idea, ask Custer...

Fleet Admiral Thompson wrote:

evilcat4000 wrote:

definetly agree with both of your statements. It is true that the Sovereign has good phaser coverage, and the torpedoes do track ships to some degree, so the Prometheus would likely take heavy damage.

Destroyed is the term not heavy damage.

Also remember that when merged, the Prometheus is 415 meters long, so I think each section would be much smaller and faster than when merged.

Speed and agility would not very useful against the Sovergein. The Sovergein is agile enough to track the Prometheus and her weapons have excellent coverage.

How does agility affect weapons targeting?

Agility allows the Sovergein to keep the Prometheus in the forward firing arc. That would bring most of the Sovergeins weapons to bear on her.

Ok, how the hell are speed, agility, and small size a disadvantage?

Speed, agility and small size means shields and firepower has been sacrificed.

Also, where are you getting all of this shit about the Sovereign II?

I think Aleyska got it from Nemesis.

If you are getting this from Nemesis, remember one thing: the Enterprise is the Federations flagship. They will be more heavily armed than standard Sovereign class ships,

There is no evidence that the flagship is more heavily armed than regular starships.

which the Starship Spotter book says carry 12 type 12 phaser arrays and 3 torpedo launchers.

Which is not canon.

The Prometheus is also equiped with ablative armor and regenerative shielding.

They are much stronger on the Sovergein.

Each section operates independantly, so that even if the Bridge section is destroyed, the other two sections can escape or continue fighting.

You said in a previous post that each section is controlled by the bridge you liar.

Each section can be controlled by the bridge, each section is warp capable, and each section has every system that operates independently of the bridge section.

evilcat4000 wrote:

Each section operates independantly, so that even if the Bridge section is destroyed, the other two sections can escape or continue fighting.

You said in a previous post that each section is controlled by the bridge you liar.

A good ECM might be enough to reduce the power of a MVAM prometheus by 66%

A good ECM might be enough to reduce the power of a MVAM prometheus by 66%

Forget ECM. Just listen in on their communications, and adapt your attack based on that.

"Dorsal engine is reporting trouble in its port nacelle, try and keep it covered - incoming fire! Dorsal section repotrs port nacelle destroyed, they are reading a chain reaction up the conduits."

HRogge wrote:

evilcat4000 wrote:

Each section operates independantly, so that even if the Bridge section is destroyed, the other two sections can escape or continue fighting.

You said in a previous post that each section is controlled by the bridge you liar.

A good ECM might be enough to reduce the power of a MVAM prometheus by 66%

Also taking out the bridge section would destroy the Prometheus. Even though the ship is split in three parts only once section needs to be destroyed.

This has continued for 5 pages?

As of Nemesis the Enterprise E, a new standard Sovereign class starship, mounts 16 type XII phaser arrays, including three arrays 100+meters in length, and a fourth not so far behind (belly of engineering) eight ( 8 ) mark 6? photon torpedo launchers capable of fairly high sustained fire, a heavy quantum torpedo launcher, ablative armor which resisted disruptor fire from the Scimitar, regenerative shielding which absorbed insane firepower over a long fight--despite the loss of main power--and finally, this ship is not so sluggish herself, thankyou very much.

Prometheus, without going into design faults, loses to a vastly superior combat vessel.

evilcat4000 wrote:

Ok, how the hell are speed, agility, and small size a disadvantage?

Speed, agility and small size means shields and firepower has been sacrificed.

Also, where are you getting all of this shit about the Sovereign II?

I think Aleyska got it from Nemesis.

If you are getting this from Nemesis, remember one thing: the Enterprise is the Federations flagship. They will be more heavily armed than standard Sovereign class ships,

There is no evidence that the flagship is more heavily armed than regular starships.

which the Starship Spotter book says carry 12 type 12 phaser arrays and 3 torpedo launchers.

Which is not canon.

The Prometheus is also equiped with ablative armor and regenerative shielding.

They are much stronger on the Sovergein.

Each section operates independantly, so that even if the Bridge section is destroyed, the other two sections can escape or continue fighting.

You said in a previous post that each section is controlled by the bridge you liar.

Each section can be controlled by the bridge, each section is warp capable, and each section has every system that operates independently of the bridge section.

Ok, I admit defeat. I will, however, ask for proof that the Sovereign has ablative armor. Oh, and just one more thing. You say I am a liar because I said in one post that each section can be controlled by the bridge, and then in the next, I say that even if the bridge is destroyed the two remaining sections can escape or keep fighting. Where is the lie?

You want proof on ablative armor? Watch its demonstratable effects on the Defiant and then watch how other Starfleet ships take damage in DS9. Then note how in Nemesis that the Enterprise absorbed damaged similar to the Defiant.