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I wonder if Picard would even consider having the Maquis as part of the crew. Didn't he despise them?

Enigma wrote:I wonder if Picard would even consider having the Maquis as part of the crew. Didn't he despise them?

I think despise is the wrong word. He certainly did not agree with them at all because he felt they were breaking their oath to the Federation AND the ones who were inciting violence for fighting to protect their homes. But Picard was still practical about things for the most part, so stuck in the Delta Quadrant he would probably be forced to admit that having ex-Starfleet officers bolstering the crew is better than just keeping them in the brig for 70 years or so.

Borgholio wrote:

Enigma wrote:I wonder if Picard would even consider having the Maquis as part of the crew. Didn't he despise them?

I think despise is the wrong word. He certainly did not agree with them at all because he felt they were breaking their oath to the Federation AND the ones who were inciting violence for fighting to protect their homes. But Picard was still practical about things for the most part, so stuck in the Delta Quadrant he would probably be forced to admit that having ex-Starfleet officers bolstering the crew is better than just keeping them in the brig for 70 years or so.

Iirc Picard had a grudge against the Maquis because they corrupted his pet project Ro Larren.

Lord Pounder wrote:
Iirc Picard had a grudge against the Maquis because they corrupted his pet project Ro Larren.

I don't know that we ever saw that play out but in the OP I specified that she was the spy instead of Tuvok so... that was all staged.
Also he has kind of a soft spot for native Americans, so maybe he an Chakotay the fellow archaeologist would hit it off.

I can't imagine him "needing" them, the Enterprise D is massive, and with a much larger crew can take heavy casualties while still having back up personel. Chakotay was Janeway's second best choice for first officer, but she needed Tuvok at Tactical.
If Riker dies Picard has Data Geordi and Worf as backups as well as maaaybe Troi. Geordi died, that still leaves bridge crew, plus probably experienced officers from other parts of the ship who could be trained.

Isn't Doctor Crusher also qualified to be first officer? Though she'd probably be more useful in sickbay.

The Romulan Republic wrote:Isn't Doctor Crusher also qualified to be first officer? Though she'd probably be more useful in sickbay.

Yeah she takes bridge duty from time to time to maintain her certification as a bridge officer. Deanna doing the same thing was the plot point of an episode, but Crusher is far more qualified.

The big question is who would take over in Engineering? Torres is not as skilled as Geordi, and I can't see Barclay getting any respect.

Data is qualified, surely, but I'd want him for First Officer.

Data was already second officer and a damned good one, so I'd keep him on as Executive Officer. That leaves ops open, but it could be done easily enough by someone else. With Geordi gone, I'm not sure Barkley would get the respect he needed for the position, but then again he's saved Enterprise's ass a few times, so they might throw him a bone to see how he does.

As far as Marquis go, Picard MIGHT let some of them resume duties, but that's a big if. He might be sorely tempted to just say to hell with it and throw the lot in the brig, but eventually a few might prove to be worth a second chance. I don't know... Picard can hold a hell of a grudge.

It would be very interesting to see how Picard handles the Borg and 7of9. Would Picard ally himself with Species 8472 and and rid of the Borg once and for all?

He might try to, but weather he'd succeed is another question. Species 8472 might not be easy to negotiate with.

The sad thing is that Seven would probably die a Borg in this scenario, along with those Borg children Voyager rescued later.

The Romulan Republic wrote:He might try to, but weather he'd succeed is another question. Species 8472 might not be easy to negotiate with.

The sad thing is that Seven would probably die a Borg in this scenario, along with those Borg children Voyager rescued later.

I'm not the biggest Voyager fan but I think they did something spectacular with that. They showed just how evil the Borg are because we learned to relate with 7 of 9 after she'd spent so long as a Borg it was one of the few things she could latch onto, even if she came to understand the evil later on. The children are also perfect examples of how the Borg turn normal people into monsters. It was effective because we faced that... with Germany and Japan following WWII. We took people who we absolutely hated and turned them into some of our greatest allies because we eventually learned not to look at their actions through the lens of the evil atrocities and see them as people.

Not everyone is your enemy. Sometimes you just need to find the good people. You can't save them all, but you can try your best. That's why I think Picard had a tremendous moment of character growth when he decided to release Hugh instead of use him as a weapon. Picard saw past his pain of becoming Locutus and realized that Hugh is just a person taken by the Borg and unable to stop it because of what the Borg did to him. Hugh is just as much a victim as Picard, and Picard saw through that. He regretted it somewhat later, given what we saw in First Contact, when he let his anger get the better of him.

Yeah, I don't know if it's really possible to guess for certain which side of the 8472/Borg fight Picard would have fallen upon. The odds are fairly decent, IMO, that he might have simply considered it tough luck for the Borg and as long as 8472 didn't look like it would attack anybody else he would've let them do their thing and see how it all went. He never struck me as being much more of an interventionist than Janeway in most cases. A good, if occasionally defiant, Starfleet captain and representative of the Federation. Janeway... well, in a sane world, she'd have been cashiered upon her return from the DQ, but nope...

Frankly, the Tuvix incident, if nothing else, should have resulted in a life sentence for murder for Janeway.

Baffalo wrote:That's why I think Picard had a tremendous moment of character growth when he decided to release Hugh instead of use him as a weapon. Picard saw past his pain of becoming Locutus and realized that Hugh is just a person taken by the Borg and unable to stop it because of what the Borg did to him. Hugh is just as much a victim as Picard, and Picard saw through that. He regretted it somewhat later, given what we saw in First Contact, when he let his anger get the better of him.

Character growth, sure, but it was also the worst mistake he ever made, and Necheyev gave him a well-deserved rocket for not taking the opportunity to deliver a severe blow against the Borg.

Elheru Aran wrote:Janeway... well, in a sane world, she'd have been cashiered upon her return from the DQ, but nope...

That might not be Starfleet's fault per se - she'd just successfully brought her ship and most of her crew home from the far side of galaxy. She would have been a national hero, and public opinion wouldn't have tolerated her being kicked out and locked up, so Starfleet did the next best thing and kicked her upstairs to act as somebody's glorified secretary.

Eternal_Freedom wrote:
Generations: E-D destroyed (stardrive section at least) due to, what, 3 torpedo hits to the unshielded stardrive section hull plus dirsuptor hits to the nacelles.

Jumping back on this discussion a bit, but the E-D took quite a few hits during the battle. Four hits are clearly taken to the stardrive section, and one hit strikes a nacelle. The ships rocks like its being hit (and with sound effects to boot), something like ten or twelve times, by my count, during the shots of the battle aboard the Enterprise.

Riker's idiocy aside, as pointed out, this is a LOT better than the Ent-D's track record while unshielded during the series. Heck, that's better than I think just about any Star Trek ship has done unshielded. Also, based on the separation scene, it looks like ALL the damage was to the stardrive, with not a single scorch mark on the saucer.

Skylon wrote:

Eternal_Freedom wrote:
Generations: E-D destroyed (stardrive section at least) due to, what, 3 torpedo hits to the unshielded stardrive section hull plus dirsuptor hits to the nacelles.

Jumping back on this discussion a bit, but the E-D took quite a few hits during the battle. Four hits are clearly taken to the stardrive section, and one hit strikes a nacelle. The ships rocks like its being hit (and with sound effects to boot), something like ten or twelve times, by my count, during the shots of the battle aboard the Enterprise.

Riker's idiocy aside, as pointed out, this is a LOT better than the Ent-D's track record while unshielded during the series. Heck, that's better than I think just about any Star Trek ship has done unshielded. Also, based on the separation scene, it looks like ALL the damage was to the stardrive, with not a single scorch mark on the saucer.

The positioning of the BoP was the reason for this. They knew exactly what portion of the ship to target because Federation starships are rather obvious where they put their main engineering, and that was in the stardrive section. With the ship turning AWAY from the BoP, they presented their stardrive section even more.

The thing that confuses me the most is, why were most of the civilians in the stardrive section requiring evacuation? Or did they just decide to show people running around the corridors confused and scared? Where were these people when red alert was sounded? It's something that bugs me because either situation is stupid and shows almost complete ineptitude on behalf of Starfleet planners.

Captain Seafort wrote:Character growth, sure, but it was also the worst mistake he ever made, and Necheyev gave him a well-deserved rocket for not taking the opportunity to deliver a severe blow against the Borg.

I can't argue with this because yes, it was a stupid move all around. The Borg have essentially declared war against the Federation, and Picard's actions could have been taken as either a severe lapse in judgement owing to his experience to the Borg as Locutus, or as collaborating with the enemy. In fact, given Hugh's statement referring to Picard as Locutus, it's entirely possible that someone in Starfleet Command could want Picard's ass for that, claiming he was still working as a Borg agent.

Elheru Aran wrote:Janeway... well, in a sane world, she'd have been cashiered upon her return from the DQ, but nope...

Captain Seafort wrote:That might not be Starfleet's fault per se - she'd just successfully brought her ship and most of her crew home from the far side of galaxy. She would have been a national hero, and public opinion wouldn't have tolerated her being kicked out and locked up, so Starfleet did the next best thing and kicked her upstairs to act as somebody's glorified secretary.

That's an interesting theory. I mean, we don't see for certain what Janeway is an admiral of, and it could be something like "Admiral of Starfleet Communications" or "Admiral of Starfleet Research & Development". She is a science officer after all, and putting her in charge could be a way of putting her somewhere that she can't be in direct command of anyone who will be making decisions for the entire Federation. And it would be a tidy way of how she was giving Picard orders... part of her research includes positronics, so detecting a positronic signature would technically fall under her pervue.

Baffalo wrote:[

That's an interesting theory. I mean, we don't see for certain what Janeway is an admiral of, and it could be something like "Admiral of Starfleet Communications" or "Admiral of Starfleet Research & Development". She is a science officer after all, and putting her in charge could be a way of putting her somewhere that she can't be in direct command of anyone who will be making decisions for the entire Federation. And it would be a tidy way of how she was giving Picard orders... part of her research includes positronics, so detecting a positronic signature would technically fall under her pervue.

Except finding B-4 had nothing to do with her giving orders to Picard. At any rate, there was a rather good fanfic on this site where she'd been shuffled into "Beta Quadrant Exploration Command" precisely as a means of getting her out of the way.

Apparently the E D CAN jettisom it's warp core after all.. I just eatched "Eye of the beholder" and Picard was getting ready to eject the core.. he ordered exterior hull plates jettisoned.

Also.. Dr. Crusher isn't in the chain of command if she dies on the way to the Delta Quadrant, neither is Geordi.
How much brig space did the enterprise have, I can't see Picard keeping them in the brig the whole way home ot even intending to

well if Picard intend to hold the marquis prisoners the whole trip to the DQ then he could always convert a cargobay or a shuttle bay into a makeshift prison, that said though Picard isn't stupid and while he can hold a grudge, he could probably see that it's not worth the effort to keep the marquis locked up for the whole 75-80 year trip and would have them work for him (or at least try to)

as for the Borg while Picard for obvious reasons might less inclined to ally himself with the Collective, he'd probably be more understanding towards 7 of 9 due having been a borg himself.

Baffalo wrote:

Captain Seafort wrote:Character growth, sure, but it was also the worst mistake he ever made, and Necheyev gave him a well-deserved rocket for not taking the opportunity to deliver a severe blow against the Borg.

I can't argue with this because yes, it was a stupid move all around. The Borg have essentially declared war against the Federation, and Picard's actions could have been taken as either a severe lapse in judgement owing to his experience to the Borg as Locutus, or as collaborating with the enemy. In fact, given Hugh's statement referring to Picard as Locutus, it's entirely possible that someone in Starfleet Command could want Picard's ass for that, claiming he was still working as a Borg agent.

I think part of the problem (which may have bought Picard some slack) is that the TNG-era Federation makes a great deal of mileage out of its political ideals. Their Starfleet seems to have real trouble deciding if it's a military service, a diplomatic corps, or a primarily scientific organization. And its officers have a lot of trouble making ethical compromises that 20th century militaries today make on a regular basis.

This arguably says good things about them as human(oid) beings, if not as warriors.

So Picard, in deciding to let an innocent person go unharmed rather than use him as a weapon, is doing something that he arguably shouldn't do, but that a large part of his professional training and indoctrination could be telling him that he should do.

Captain Seafort wrote:

Elheru Aran wrote:Janeway... well, in a sane world, she'd have been cashiered upon her return from the DQ, but nope...

That might not be Starfleet's fault per se - she'd just successfully brought her ship and most of her crew home from the far side of galaxy. She would have been a national hero, and public opinion wouldn't have tolerated her being kicked out and locked up, so Starfleet did the next best thing and kicked her upstairs to act as somebody's glorified secretary.

The alien tech that she brought would've certainly helped out her case. Especially that modified slipstream drive that went 10k lys in three minutes.

Baffalo wrote: The thing that confuses me the most is, why were most of the civilians in the stardrive section requiring evacuation? Or did they just decide to show people running around the corridors confused and scared? Where were these people when red alert was sounded? It's something that bugs me because either situation is stupid and shows almost complete ineptitude on behalf of Starfleet planners.

May not have been the Stardrive section - it could have been people evaccing the lower portions of the saucer section.

Themightytom wrote:Apparently the E D CAN jettisom it's warp core after all.. I just eatched "Eye of the beholder" and Picard was getting ready to eject the core.. he ordered exterior hull plates jettisoned.

Oh was someone saying they can't? The warp core ejection systems were mentioned several times in TNG.

Eye of the Beholder for one. Then there's Disaster, Cause and Effect and Timescape.

Prometheus Unbound wrote:

Themightytom wrote:Apparently the E D CAN jettisom it's warp core after all.. I just eatched "Eye of the beholder" and Picard was getting ready to eject the core.. he ordered exterior hull plates jettisoned.

Oh was someone saying they can't? The warp core ejection systems were mentioned several times in TNG.

Eye of the Beholder for one. Then there's Disaster, Cause and Effect and Timescape.

Well I was saying that for one, because I had never seen it done successfully. "Planning to eject the core" is different than having an eject-able core. For all I figured it was just "seal engineering and blow everything not bolted down into space. "

Themightytom wrote:

Prometheus Unbound wrote:Oh was someone saying they can't? The warp core ejection systems were mentioned several times in TNG.

Eye of the Beholder for one. Then there's Disaster, Cause and Effect and Timescape.

Well I was saying that for one, because I had never seen it done successfully. "Planning to eject the core" is different than having an eject-able core. For all I figured it was just "seal engineering and blow everything not bolted down into space. "

Since we never saw it and I didn't remember them even planning to, I just assumed they couldn't. Though honestly, given Starfleet's stellar track record for safety, it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't have contingencies. That'd be like the first time they built a nuclear reactor they didn't bother with the lead and then wondered why everyone was dying of radiation.

"Captain, this new prototype engine is almost ready, but we have no margin of safety. If it doesn't perform flawlessly the first time we use it, it'll explode and take out 300,000 people."
"So when do we fire it up?"
"In about 20 minutes."