Reboot Star Trek

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Darth Yan
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Reboot Star Trek

Post by Darth Yan »

I haven't seen much of the show but I have been wondering. What would happen if the 5 main shows (TOS, TNG, DS9, Voy and Ent) got remade with a modern budget, more enlightened sensibilities (let's face it Roddenberry was a man of his era) and with more diversity (i.e. the species are more diverse than just the one note stereotypes we largely get)?

Caveats

1.) Star Trek TOS gets a five series run, and some of the events of Beyond get a shoutout or might show up (the white skinned badass who joins the crew, Idris Elba's character)

2.) Dominion War is still a major part of Deep Space 9, as are the Pah-Wraiths.

3.) None of this nonsense of "I'm torn between my heritages" or people who are half human half Romulan creating fertile offspring. That's not how species works.

4.) Enterprise is still a prequel about Humanity trying to prove itself to other species.

5.) Voyager is still Janeway trying to get home.

6.) The Borg are still a major threat (though whether they assimilate people or assimilate technology is up to you.)
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Re: Reboot Star Trek

Post by bilateralrope »

One big change is that most shows are far more seralized now, instead of being highly episodic. That's going to be a major change for TOS and TNG, probably for the worse as they can't spend a single episode on an issue and then move on. They can't take a break from the major story arc for a filler/worldbuilding episode.

After seeing Discovery, Picard and Strange New Worlds (which is more episodic), I'm not sure that's a good thing.
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Re: Reboot Star Trek

Post by LadyTevar »

Darth Yan wrote: 2022-09-17 08:57pm I haven't seen much of the show but I have been wondering. What would happen if the 5 main shows (TOS, TNG, DS9, Voy and Ent) got remade with a modern budget, more enlightened sensibilities (let's face it Roddenberry was a man of his era) and with more diversity (i.e. the species are more diverse than just the one note stereotypes we largely get)?
FIRST: Before you touch anything -- WATCH THE DAMN SHOW.

Especially since the 3rd Caveat you list totally removes Mr. Spock from the TOS, thereby making it NO LONGER STAR TREK. :banghead:

I'm not even a rapid Trekkie and I can see the Caveats you listed are idiotic.
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Re: Reboot Star Trek

Post by Darth Yan »

I was more bothered about the "half humans half romulans etc being able to produce fertile offspring" caveat to be honest (since that is not how species work). The "torn between my heritage" can work if it's not overdone, which some fans felt it could be.
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Re: Reboot Star Trek

Post by Batman »

If pure humans and Vulcans can breed (which is required for Spock as we know him) why would it get MORE difficult for their offspring?
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Re: Reboot Star Trek

Post by Darth Yan »

Different species can have children they just won’t be fertile. Spock wouldn’t be able to have kids for instance. Worf shouldn’t have been able to knock up a half human half Klingon woman for instance.

That’s what a mule is
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Re: Reboot Star Trek

Post by Batman »

Fair enough.
So half-breeds are possible but quarter-breeds are not? (wasn't very attentive in biology class).
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Re: Reboot Star Trek

Post by Darth Yan »

Pretty much. Darth Wong pointed this out on the main site.
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Re: Reboot Star Trek

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

Batman wrote: 2022-09-18 04:53pm Fair enough.
So half-breeds are possible but quarter-breeds are not? (wasn't very attentive in biology class).
If memory serves, to have fertile offspring two creatures need to be the same species. To have viable offspring (as is, they'll live to adulthood but be infertile) you need to be in the same genus. Hence you have have mules, ligers, zedonks and so on, but you couldn't cross-breed, say, a lion with a wolf.

Of course this raises the question of how on earth characters like Spock, Work, torres and Naomi Wildman are even alive.
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Re: Reboot Star Trek

Post by Lord Revan »

Eternal_Freedom wrote: 2022-09-18 05:21pm
Batman wrote: 2022-09-18 04:53pm Fair enough.
So half-breeds are possible but quarter-breeds are not? (wasn't very attentive in biology class).
If memory serves, to have fertile offspring two creatures need to be the same species. To have viable offspring (as is, they'll live to adulthood but be infertile) you need to be in the same genus. Hence you have have mules, ligers, zedonks and so on, but you couldn't cross-breed, say, a lion with a wolf.

Of course this raises the question of how on earth characters like Spock, Work, torres and Naomi Wildman are even alive.
Who is Work? if you mean Worf he was a full Klingon raised by human since his biological parents died when he was a child.
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Re: Reboot Star Trek

Post by Crazedwraith »

Because it's science fiction, not science fact and they took liberties.

New rule, Star Trek but without warp drive because that's not how physics works.
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Re: Reboot Star Trek

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

Lord Revan wrote: 2022-09-18 05:31pm
Eternal_Freedom wrote: 2022-09-18 05:21pm
Batman wrote: 2022-09-18 04:53pm Fair enough.
So half-breeds are possible but quarter-breeds are not? (wasn't very attentive in biology class).
If memory serves, to have fertile offspring two creatures need to be the same species. To have viable offspring (as is, they'll live to adulthood but be infertile) you need to be in the same genus. Hence you have have mules, ligers, zedonks and so on, but you couldn't cross-breed, say, a lion with a wolf.

Of course this raises the question of how on earth characters like Spock, Work, torres and Naomi Wildman are even alive.
Who is Work? if you mean Worf he was a full Klingon raised by human since his biological parents died when he was a child.
Yeah sorry I'm getting my part-Klingons mixed up. Alexander's mother, K'Heyler I think? would still count.
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Re: Reboot Star Trek

Post by Solauren »

Species being able to breed was indirectly explained twice so far.

First in the TOS episode where Kirk loses his memory (I think that was Paradise Syndrome). Turns out an advanced race took populations of species that were endangered on their homeworld, and spread them through out the galaxy.

Bones - So that's why humanoids are so common.....

The second was a TNG episode (don't remember the name), where it turns out the major races (Humans, KIingons, Vulcan/Romulans, Cardassians) were all genetically engineered to evolve into compatiable species by an ancient race (that looked ALOT like Odo's people)....

Crusher and Picard even had dialogue addressing that despite them not being from nearby each other, they appeared related and compatable.
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Re: Reboot Star Trek

Post by Gandalf »

Darth Yan wrote: 2022-09-17 08:57pm 3.) None of this nonsense of "I'm torn between my heritages" or people who are half human half Romulan creating fertile offspring. That's not how species works.
In addition to the species thing others have mentioned, being torn between heritages is a pretty real phenomenon. To grow bouncing between two cultures with at times conflicting values can be a pretty big hurdle in life.
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Re: Reboot Star Trek

Post by Batman »

The 'torn between heritages' is a real thing even for ordinary real world humans. For example Turks growing up in Germany.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
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Re: Reboot Star Trek

Post by Darth Yan »

True but it can often be overdone. And the whole quarter different species could get silly at times
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Re: Reboot Star Trek

Post by Batman »

The One-note species usually depicted in Trek didn't really help.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
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Re: Reboot Star Trek

Post by bilateralrope »

Solauren wrote: 2022-09-18 05:55pm Species being able to breed was indirectly explained twice so far.

First in the TOS episode where Kirk loses his memory (I think that was Paradise Syndrome). Turns out an advanced race took populations of species that were endangered on their homeworld, and spread them through out the galaxy.

Bones - So that's why humanoids are so common.....

The second was a TNG episode (don't remember the name), where it turns out the major races (Humans, KIingons, Vulcan/Romulans, Cardassians) were all genetically engineered to evolve into compatiable species by an ancient race (that looked ALOT like Odo's people)....

Crusher and Picard even had dialogue addressing that despite them not being from nearby each other, they appeared related and compatable.
I've also got some vague memories of mentions of medical procedures for couples to produce children even when their species were too different for it to happen naturally. If we assume that this procedure has been around since before TOS, it would explain almost all the half-breeds.
Darth Yan wrote: 2022-09-18 01:39pm I was more bothered about the "half humans half romulans etc being able to produce fertile offspring" caveat to be honest (since that is not how species work). The "torn between my heritage" can work if it's not overdone, which some fans felt it could be.
Looking back on Trek, I feel that the "torn between my biological heritages" thing barely came up. Sure, it was Spock's reason for entering Starfleet, but it barely came up as an ongoing issue.

More often was a conflict between duty and heritage. For example, Worf having conflict between his Klingon heritage and oath to serve the Federation. Or Odo having conflict between his people and what he saw as right. Both of them being pure members of their species.
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Re: Reboot Star Trek

Post by Ralin »

Darth Yan wrote: 2022-09-18 01:39pm I was more bothered about the "half humans half romulans etc being able to produce fertile offspring" caveat to be honest (since that is not how species work).
That we've seen, so far. Once our biological horizons expand to include the fauna of hundreds or thousands of worlds and how they interact who knows what we'll find? Way I understand it biologists already have a surprisingly hard time nailing down a coherent definition of what constitutes a species in real life.
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Re: Reboot Star Trek

Post by Adam Reynolds »

Crazedwraith wrote: 2022-09-18 05:34pm Because it's science fiction, not science fact and they took liberties.

New rule, Star Trek but without warp drive because that's not how physics works.
Actually I think it might be more interesting if they had a sort of carrier model using synthetic wormholes with larger carrier vessels and runabout or Defiant sized warship/exploratory vessels that go into serious danger and visit planets. So you get both the city in space in which families can be brought along on the overall journey and the benefits of not putting families in danger for more dangerous missions. This also avoids one of the flaws we see in Star Trek in which a half dozen characters are in danger on the ground while several hundred are potentially available on the starship in orbit. If the smaller exploratory ships are the ones immediately available and only have a dozen or so crewmembers, there really isn't any immediate backup available to send in the first place.

Also, if we're able to change the overall tech base, ditch transporters and just use shuttles instead. Transporters are a device that inherently removes drama from the story and thus requires a wide variety of justifications as to why it doesn't work for a given scenario. This is something that The Orville got right.
Ralin wrote: 2022-09-19 03:04pm That we've seen, so far. Once our biological horizons expand to include the fauna of hundreds or thousands of worlds and how they interact who knows what we'll find? Way I understand it biologists already have a surprisingly hard time nailing down a coherent definition of what constitutes a species in real life.
Species may be hard to define exactly relative to other extremely related species, like the difference between homo sapiens and neanderthals, but this doesn't mean that widely divergent species could ever reproduce, The odds of it being possible for alien life to reproduce with humans is like saying that you might suddenly find a fish that can reproduce with a dolphin or whale. With alien life they might even use different types of amino acids or DNA that makes them even less related to humans than a banana.

There are only three ways I can see this being plausible. The first is something exotic and borderline parasitic like the asari from Mass Effect using what amounts to parasitic asexual reproduction with different sentient races. As has been pointed out before, on a galactic scale this could easily lead to a group like the asari becoming dominant as they dilute the gene pool within other races because they are often seen as more desirable than mating with someone from your own race.

The second and third options would be a species deliberately using either genetic engineering or just pressure for convergent evolution making a species closer to humanity. Convergent evolution requires too long for most settings, but it has been suggested in Star Wars as the reason races like the Twi'leks look human, but you could also argue that The Force had something to do with it in cases like Hera and Kanan. Genetic engineering is also theoretically possible as something like a diplomatic oriented race who creates a sub-species that can interact with natives while also being derived from the original species. This is sort of what we see in James Cameron's Avatar, but that example also has the weird brain interface bit and the Navi look way too humans in the first place.
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Re: Reboot Star Trek

Post by bilateralrope »

Adam Reynolds wrote: 2022-09-20 07:50am and the benefits of not putting families in danger for more dangerous missions.
Families in danger was only the standard procedure in TNG. The other series largely avoided it.
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Re: Reboot Star Trek

Post by Gandalf »

This is an idea I've had bottled in my head for a while, so let's let it out. Sorry it's so scattered in thought.

For Deep Space Nine, Bajor is more central to the station. It's a Bajoran station, being run by Starfleet technical knowledge on the condition that they will one day turn it over to Bajor. This treaty was signed by the Provisional Government, whose authority is largely on paper.

During the occupation, Cardassian authorities tried to co-opt Bajoran religious scriptures. There was an "end times" prophecy, about how the Prophets would send a people of divine order from the Celestial Temple to Bajor. Some Obsidian Order operatives, as well as regular occupation authorities attempted to promote the idea that Cardassians were that people of divine order. A lot of Bajorans went along under the Cardassian boot merely to live comfortably, and some more openly collaborated for reasons ranging from perceived pragmatism to status seeking. The Resistance is more of a fringe thing. When the Federation turns up, many Bajorans see the early days of Cardassian occupation repeating.

On the Cardassian side of things, the final years of the Bajoran occupation were the cause of issues on Cardassia. The strong centralised authorities needed to prove that they could colonise and integrate other species into the Cardassian Union, in order to compete with the Federation. After the better part of a century of failing to integrate a small and seemingly backwater planet, with rising costs and casualties, there is massive political instability. Other groups nearby like the Romulan and Klingon Empires see a chance to improve their fortunes with a vulnerable Cardassian Union.

The Federation sees this as an opportunity to bring a peace to the area. A stable Bajor and Cardassia means less chance of conflict in or near Federation territory, and less chance for groups like the Maquis to grow.

The discovery of the wormhole changes everything, and I'll stick that in the next post.
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Re: Reboot Star Trek

Post by Gandalf »

The discovery of the wormhole makes the Bajoran system more valuable. Cardassian hardliners suddenly want to return to Bajor. Ferengi trading missions want to buy up parts of the system to use it as a base for commercial exploration of the Gamma Quadrant. The Starfleet people on DS9 see their mission change from helping Bajor to defending Bajor.

First contact with the Dominion happens sooner, but instead of it being the attack on the not Enterprise, it's a far friendlier moment. The Dominion start visiting, as Vorta emissaries go to various AQ powers on a charm offensive for two seasons. They offer Bajor rebuilding aid, but also a promise that none of their people will ever go near Bajor without strict permission. They offer Cardassia mediation between factions to help unify and strengthen their government. They offer the Federation help with defense against the Borg. And so on.

When the Cardassian government is reunified, it is under a more "civilian" government than before. In a last ditch effort to resurrect the old Cardassia, some Legate gets a fleet together to attack and take Bajor. The Federation is unable to get a fleet there in time, and the station can't provide adequate defence. However the Dominion have a fleet parked on the other side of the wormhole. As the Cardassian fleet enters the system, the Dominion fleet appears out of the wormhole. Several Dominion ships sacrifice themselves to protect smaller Bajoran ships and installations.

As a result, the Federation has again been shown unable to protect Bajor. Cardassia is now unified under a less scary government, with the hardliners purged. Bajor is absolutely rapt with the Dominion, with the religious sects seeing them as a divine order that the Cardassians could never be, and others just seeing them as long term safety. The Starfleet heroes are suspicious of the whole thing, and seek to expose the Dominion for who they are.

The Dominion start to offer themselves as a security presence for the sector. Bajor offers an outer planet for the Jem' Hadar to establish a base. Cardassia offers similar. The Dominion start building up forces for the eventual war. No idea how that starts though. Maybe the Romulans try to Pearl Harbour them, the Dominion decides it's go time, and the quadrant quickly has to choose sides.

Again, a lot of scattered thoughts. But fun nonetheless.
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