The Case For Genocide Against Phlox And Archer

[Darth Wong]

18's argument is obviously based on some kind of "benevolent God's will" thinking, where the "natural" direction of events is assumed to have some sort of intrinsic moral value.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Yeah I been reading some more about this...you guys really are defending the Valakians here? Really?

Apparently even Hoshi saw the Valakians treated the Menk, and I quoute, "like pets" and they made the Menk, who had an agrarian culture, live on shitty land and gave them hand-me-downs.

Wow yeah, the Valakians are real troopers. I mean they obviously are living in such harmony with the Menk here, kind of the harmony that people have with their FUCKING DOGS! Come on people, these guys are dyed in the whool assholes, why on God's Earth is it relevent if such douchebags survive? Really cause, the more I read about this episode, the more I'm getting "South Africa" vibes here.

I love the way they tap dance around it too, "Oh on other planets they'd have killed the Menk! They're being gentle, making them live like animals on shitty land, damn lazy Menk!" Christ this is like some cartoonish parody of Jim Crow.

[Darth Wong]

Yeah I been reading some more about this...you guys really are defending the Valakians here? Really?

They don't have to be saints for us to say that you can't ethically let them all die, moron.

Wow yeah, the Valakians are real troopers. I mean they obviously are living in such harmony with the Menk here, kind of the harmony that people have with their FUCKING DOGS! Come on people, these guys are dyed in the whool assholes, why on God's Earth is it relevent if such douchebags survive? Really cause, the more I read about this episode, the more I'm getting "South Africa" vibes here.

So if you had your way, you would have exterminated every white person in South Africa?

I love the way they tap dance around it too, "Oh on other planets they'd have killed the Menk! They're being gentle, making them live like animals on shitty land, damn lazy Menk!" Christ this is like some cartoonish parody of Jim Crow.

No it isn't. You're assuming that we must choose between "We love them they're wonderful OMG OMG" and "Kill 'em all". Don't be such a fucking moron.

[18-Till-I-Die]

18's argument is obviously based on some kind of "benevolent God's will" thinking, where the "natural" direction of events is assumed to have some sort of intrinsic moral value.

Not even. It's based on the fact that the Menks are treated like shit by the Valakians, and the Valakians can barely function as a species. There is no reason to allow one race, who apparently opress another race, free reign.

Notice how I never said "God" or even "Nature" in that whole argument. The Valakians are just assholes, they suck at survival and they're dying out. The Menk are, most likely, some kind of slave caste at best and possibly pets from what I've read. Pets. These people are owning other sapient beings, what possible reason do we need these racist little assholes around again?

Oh, so you didn't see the episode, or even bother reading about it on Memory Alpha or Chuck's Opinionated Enterprise episode guide. Jesus, it's not that hard to look this shit up.

Uh...yeah I read both. I said that.

[Sonnenburg]

Hey Chuck, you mind if I cross post this on DITL?

Sorry, I missed this. Go right ahead.

[18-Till-I-Die]

They don't have to be saints for us to say that you can't ethically let them all die, moron.

And I never said it was eithical or moral. I said I believe it was right, from a standpoint of being somewhat more justifiable than letting the Menk languish while the Valakians, who are dying out anyway, do dick.

So if you had your way, you would have exterminated every white person in South Africa?

Whites are not a genetically damaged race about to die off on their own, without outside help, so that's a useless question. Whites can function as a species, the Valakians can no longer say that.

No it isn't. You're assuming that we must choose between "We love them they're wonderful OMG OMG" and "Kill 'em all". Don't be such a fucking moron.

No I'm just saying I don't see what was so great in saving about a race of impotent assholes who treat another sapient race like pets.

[Darth Wong]

Not even. It's based on the fact that the Menks are treated like shit by the Valakians, and the Valakians can barely function as a species. There is no reason to allow one race, who apparently opress another race, free reign.

No "free reign?" So you would conquer the planet and rearrange it to suit your preferred ethical beliefs?

Notice how I never said "God" or even "Nature" in that whole argument.

Yes you did. In your first post, you spoke of the Valakians naturally dying out, as if "naturally" makes it somehow better.

The Valakians are just assholes, they suck at survival and they're dying out.

By this same logic, black people sucked at civilization, since they were conquered by the Europeans and subjugated by pretty much everyone, and even when the Europeans left, they couldn't run their own affairs. So they deserve to be slaves, right? Your "they're doing poorly so they suck and should be left to rot" logic is bizarre and morally indefensible.

Oh wait, but that example is completely different because the black subjugation was not "natural", right? Don't lie, that's what you were about to say in retort.

[Sonnenburg]

18's argument is obviously based on some kind of "benevolent God's will" thinking, where the "natural" direction of events is assumed to have some sort of intrinsic moral value.

Not even. It's based on the fact that the Menks are treated like shit by the Valakians, and the Valakians can barely function as a species. There is no reason to allow one race, who apparently opress another race, free reign.

Notice how I never said "God" or even "Nature" in that whole argument. The Valakians are just assholes, they suck at survival and they're dying out. The Menk are, most likely, some kind of slave caste at best and possibly pets from what I've read. Pets. These people are owning other sapient beings, what possible reason do we need these racist little assholes around again?

You're also basing this presumption on hearsay rather than seeing it in the episode. There's so little evidence that this is the case that even Phlox refuses to accept it, and since that has no basis in his reasoning then it's irrelevant to the issue of intent - as far as he was concerned, the Valakians should not be removed because they were oppressive, but just because they were in the way.

[Darth Wong]

They don't have to be saints for us to say that you can't ethically let them all die, moron.

And I never said it was eithical or moral. I said I believe it was right, from a standpoint of being somewhat more justifiable than letting the Menk languish while the Valakians, who are dying out anyway, do dick.

You're a goddamned idiot. How can it be "right" or "justifiable" if it's not ethical or moral?

Whites are not a genetically damaged race about to die off on their own, without outside help, so that's a useless question. Whites can function as a species, the Valakians can no longer say that.

Appeal to Nature fallacy.

No I'm just saying I don't see what was so great in saving about a race of impotent assholes who treat another sapient race like pets.

I didn't think I was going to have to explain the concept of saving sapient lives as a moral good.

[Samuel]

Wait, so the group dying out in this episode treated the Menk like the native Americans... except without genocide, the two groups are not the same species or equally intelligent and they actually help them out?

While I wouldn't claim it is the most moral position, it is extremely benevolent considering the options they had.

[Junghalli]

Uhhh... no, especially not in this case, since evolution is based off of who dies more than who lives. In the show it was like everyone was evolving, ohh... let's go with ALS as an example. The way evolution works is that those with the trait should get killed off, not spread it around. This also evidently wasn't based off of a change in environment resulting in maladaption, which is you know, how species actually go extinct, not suddenly having all of their DNA just stop working properly enmass, which is stupid.

There is actually some precedent in nature for "counterproductive adaptations"; here's an essay on it. Of course, in those cases it's a question of evolution favoring traits that are deletrious for the species but beneficial for the individual organism; a sort of biological tragedy of the commons. An example would be a disease evolving counterproductively high virulence because the virulent bacteria or viruses replicate faster as individuals and outcompete the less virulent ones. This is quite different from what the Valakians are suffering from, as their condition obviously disadvantages them as individuals, and really does make absolutely no sense in Darwin's universe.

Note: I'm not sure I agree with everything in that essay. Still, the point about the short-sightedness of evolution is pretty sound.

Frankly one has to wonder what massive inbreeding it takes to develop a flaw that extreme, but it's really irrelevent beyond the fact that nothing at all would be served by helping them...they can't survive much longer anyway, if their gene pool is so shallow that it's literally bone dry.

Massive inbreeding could indeed be the reason, although I have a bit of a different theory on that. My bet is that they're sick with some kind of virus. The virus reprograms the DNA of the cells in such a way as to promote its own replication or otherwise make the body more hospitable for it, and the changes have deletrious effects on the body. This might make it look as if the species is "evolving to extinction", if they mistook the virus for an opportunistic infection that attacks the already weakened body (i.e. mixed up cause and effect). This might happen if the virus has a rapid virulent phase where it reprograms your cells and then decreases in virulence later so it would only be present in small concentrations in the body.

I have to admit I can't really imagine how the last part would evolve, unless maybe the virus remains contagious and so it would be in its interests to not kill the host too quickly. Although when it's described it sounds almost as if it might have been artificial: a biological weapon designed to kill off the Valakians while making it look like they succumbed to some sort of natural process. I can think of several reasons why someone might concievably want to do that, and it does IMO make the whole thing a bit more interesting, as it implies there's more going on than meets the eye.

The Menk were clearly intelligent, from everything I've read. The only thing they lacked was technology...now maybe the episode said different, but so far the only logical explanation for why these clearly intelligent people were so backwards is that "they were treated as a lower class" by the Valakians.

I don't think that's the only logical explanation. It's just as likely that they were sapient and somewhat intelligent but equivalent to mentally retarded or very low IQ humans. A species doesn't go straight from chimp intelligence to human intelligence after all, it would get smarter in stages, and maybe the Menk are at an earlier stage in that development than the Valakians. Or maybe their intelligence just plateaued at a lower level. Pablo Sanchez's comments seem to validate this.

Put it this way. Imagine if we found some pre-human hominid on our world, maybe some of those "hobbits" still alive on some remote island in Indonesia. They might be smarter than chimps, maybe even smart enough to have a simple language and such, but considerably dumber than humans. That would basically leave them as a permanent underclass, since they couldn't function in human society except as lab/zoo curiousities, pets, quasi-slaves, or in a role equivalent to badly developmentally disabled humans. The fact that we couldn't make them complete equals to ourselves wouldn't be because we're evil, it simply reflects biological reality. Well, arguably eventually we could use genetic engineering to uplift them to human level of intelligence and have an ethical obligations to do so, but that's a bit different from saying the only reason they're being held back is the presence of the Valakians. Indeed, the Valakians would have to be alive to do this.

In which case Phlox is probably assuming they'll evolve more intelligence if they're faced with the same challenges that led the Valakians to become more intelligence, but of course this is really a questionable assumption realistically.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Massive inbreeding could indeed be the reason, although I have a bit of a different theory on that. My bet is that they're sick with some kind of virus. The virus reprograms the DNA of the cells in such a way as to promote its own replication or otherwise make the body more hospitable for it, and the changes have deletrious effects on the body. This might make it look as if the species is "evolving to extinction", if they mistook the virus for an opportunistic infection that attacks the already weakened body (i.e. mixed up cause and effect). This might happen if the virus has a rapid virulent phase where it reprograms your cells and then decreases in virulence later so it would only be present in small concentrations in the body.

I have to admit I can't really imagine how the last part would evolve, unless maybe the virus remains contagious and so it would be in its interests to not kill the host too quickly. Although when it's described it sounds almost as if it might have been artificial: a biological weapon designed to kill off the Valakians while making it look like they succumbed to some sort of natural process. I can think of several reasons why someone might concievably want to do that, and it does IMO make the whole thing a bit more interesting, as it implies there's more going on than meets the eye.

Actually I considered that, and the involvement of the Ferangi makes one wonder what exactly caused this in the first place. But there is no evidence for that and one would think that some would be found if it were examined.

Unless the Valakians did this to themselves. But I can't think of why unless they were trying to wipe out the Menks and screwed up somehow, which makes this attempt to save themselves hilariously ironic in it's failure, if that were true.

But so far, I don't see any reason to doubt they just hit a wall. Sometimes shit happens, and frankly I'd prefer to think they just got dealt a shitty hand then that the Ferangi did this in some asinine pitch for selling a cure...which would make me just want to go to the Ferangi homeworld and punt their heads across a room one by one, if they truly were that fucking greedy. But the thing is, I really wouldn't be surprised if that were somehow the subtextual implication...

I don't think that's the only logical explanation. It's just as likely that they were sapient and somewhat intelligent but equivalent to mentally retarded or very low IQ humans. A species doesn't go straight from chimp intelligence to human intelligence after all, it would get smarter in stages, and maybe the Menk are at an earlier stage in that development than the Valakians. Or maybe their intelligence just plateaued at a lower level. Pablo Sanchez's comments seem to validate this.

Yeah but, according to Memory Alpha, the Menk were getting smarter at an increasing rate. Like, every generation. They're not plateauing, they're actually getting BETTER. Not stagnant, but better. Indeed, that seemed to be the major plot point, that they rapidly learned English somehow. So if they weren't as smart as the Valakians already they were quickly becoming so. Indeed, it seems to be the Valakians that plateaued, and rather spectacularly at that.

Put it this way. Imagine if we found some pre-human hominid on our world, maybe some of those "hobbits" still alive on some remote island in Indonesia. They might be smarter than chimps, maybe even smart enough to have a simple language and such, but considerably dumber than humans. That would basically leave them as a permanent underclass, since they couldn't function in human society except as lab/zoo curiousities, pets, quasi-slaves, or in a role equivalent to badly developmentally disabled humans. The fact that we couldn't make them complete equals to ourselves wouldn't be because we're evil, it simply reflects biological reality. Well, arguably eventually we could use genetic engineering to uplift them to human level of intelligence and have an ethical obligations to do so, but that's a bit different from saying the only reason they're being held back is the presence of the Valakians. Indeed, the Valakians would have to be alive to do this.

In which case Phlox is probably assuming they'll evolve more intelligence if they're faced with the same challenges that led the Valakians to become more intelligence, but of course this is really a questionable assumption realistically.

If the Menk were, indeed, getting progressively smarter at a rapid pace then this whole train of thought is kind of moot. Supposedly, one of them learned to speak some crude English, a language he never heard before mind you, rather fast which says to me the Menks may in fact be smarter than they seem. It's entirely likely they're backwardness is more a lack of technology and education...which again, falls on the Valakians side, since who else would keep them from getting either.

It seems the Valakians wanted to keep the Menks fat and happy and quiet, and that they themselves may have realized just how ridiculously they had peaked and were trying to "stop the bleeding" as it were. While it's nice to tap dance around the notion, the Valakians clearly though the Menks were shit, and yet the Menks were actually doing better than them, and in fact getting smarter by the generation. The Valakians, in this case, may have felt quite threatened by the whole thing. Imagine if suddenly those "hobbit" people were getting smarter on a progressively rapid scale, while we stagnated, which appears to be what the Valakians were doing since they failed to develop technologically past a certain point themselves.

[Patrick Degan]

Evolution doesn't work that way. The speciation of one distinct line does not mean the automatic extinction of the progenitor species or even its cousins on the evolutionary tree (a thing to keep in mind the next time you hear some dumb twat like Larry King ask how apes and monkeys can continue to exist since humans are around on Earth). Species continue to exist and thrive so long as there is still a niche in the ecology they can fill.

Yeah but see, that's the thing, from what I understand (and keep in mind, Sonnenberg's essay is my entire guide to this episode's plot) the Menk had already evolved to sapience...they were just a technologically backwards culture. According to Memory Alpha they were "treated as a lower class", which I believe is perhaps the most asinine PC codeword for "treated like minority underclass" I've ever seen. That alone means that, yes, the Menk were indeed being hindered in their continued development by the Valakians, who apparently treated them like shit, possibly as slaves from the vagueness of that statement. They weren't like chimps who, while clearly sapient, are not on par with humans. This is more like a primitive tribe of humans being ruled over by a powerful but dying race of humans. Plus they were two seperate species apparently, evolving from different genetic lines, or again that seems to be what Sonnenberg's essay implies. If the episode said different then you'll have to fill me in.

The Menk were up to tool-using but had not even reached the same level of baseline intelligence as the Valakians. The comparison, as has been outlined, is more like that of Homo Sapiens and Homo Erectus.

This isn't like the Giant Pandas, who were perfectly fine until we destroyed most of their habitat, or those Yangste (spelled that wrong) dolphins who died because of our pollution...this is a race who has literally hit a dead end. They mutated some kind of fatal flaw, they're a failure, they can no longer function. Evolution dealt them a shitty card, not humans, not pollution, not deforestation, but simple chance. Logically then there is no reason that any "cure" would do much anyway, because any race that is literally a genetic dead end already as shown that EVEN WITH ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY they failed to survive and thrive in their niche.

Surely you realise what utter bullshit that is, don't you? Evolution is entirely driven by environmental conditions, not by random shuffles of the genetic deck. Furthermore, the only actual "genetic dead-end" that exists in any evolutionary context is when a species actually goes extinct. Meanwhile, as Phlox had found a means to correct whatever problem the Valakians had, that means it was possible to discover it in the first place and perpetuate the Valakians, who either would eventually have found the corrective themselves or would have discovered how to make it for themselves after initial aid.

The Valakians are, in a word, a complete failure as a species. They failed where the common roach was able to succeed: not dying. Frankly one has to wonder what massive inbreeding it takes to develop a flaw that extreme, but it's really irrelevent beyond the fact that nothing at all would be served by helping them...they can't survive much longer anyway, if their gene pool is so shallow that it's literally bone dry.

So, it's alright to simply stand back and let the Valakians die.

The Menk were clearly intelligent, from everything I've read. The only thing they lacked was technology...now maybe the episode said different, but so far the only logical explanation for why these clearly intelligent people were so backwards is that "they were treated as a lower class" by the Valakians. And really, I'm not surprised to hear that. In our own history "backwards" races were always "treated as a lower class" by the more technological "enlightened" races.

So, it's alright to simply stand back and let the Valakians die.

I mean, really is it so hard to believe the precious Valakians were probably keeping the Menks as pets or most likely slaves. How else do you interpret "lower class". If they're a class, clearly they're considered intelligent enough to be part of society, and really again that's just a codeword for opressed minority. So yeah the Valakians, by the accounts I've seen, probably have done a lot to keep their less advanced roomies down. In fact if they were used as slaves it would probably explain why they were kept alive so "mercifully" as Sonnenberg put it: they're probably property. Again if they were shown as some kind of special second class citizens or something, let me know, but everything I've seen has politely tap danced around the real problem here: why ELSE would an intelligent race develop NO technology in all this time if they weren't being held back purposefully by someone who wants them to stay stupid and quiet.

So, it's alright to simply stand back and let the Valakians die.

But the point is that you have two races here, and one of them will surely die, because two technologically sophisticated races can't really co-inhabit a planet with limited resources. Imagine if there was some seperate race that evolved beside humans...now imagine how they'd feel about our global warming. Or all that oil we're wasting. That's what I mean. So saving the Valakians means that, inevitably, the Menks will be destroyed one way or another. This is simply unavoidable. Saving the Menks means, yes, dooming the Valakians to destruction.

False Dilemma Fallacy.

The question is ethically and morally cold blooded to a profound degree, but really it comes down to which race you think deserves it more. Since the Valakians are already dying because of their fucked up gene pool, I say save the healthy race. Now that's ethically and morally brutal and cold and horrible, but really what else can you do? Set up a Menk colony? That's asinine, and more so how do you know the Menk can even survive on this colony world, they may be able to breathe the air and drink the water but some random virus there may mutate and kill them all. Moving the Menk is not a possibility. And neither is them just tooling along and developing an advanced society while the Valakians sit by and twiddle their thumbs, because anyone who knows anything about history will tell you that's simply not going to happen.

So, it's alright to simply stand back and let the Valakians die.

One race has to die.

Bullshit.

The only reason the Valakians hadn't wiped out the Menk before probably is because, as disgusting as it sounds, they probably thought the "stupid, bestial" Menks were cute pets or good workers. The Menks I see have no say in this, nor any defenders it appears. I really don't see what was so precious about a dying race who already admit they treat their cousins like shit...I'm sorry like a "lower class", whatever that's worth. The Valakians don't think shit of the Menk, and this rush to defend them is, I can't help but think, really based on people just relating to the high tech fancy Valakians more than the "lower class" Menks.

So, it's alright to simply stand back and let the Valakians die. Because you don't like them. Because they're not nice enough for your tender sensibilities to bear.

BTW, nice little Appeal to Motive fallacy you wrap your little farrago up with. No, the criticism about simply letting an entire race die out when the means to save them exists and instead withholding it is not based on bias toward the high-technology culture, it's based upon the simple ethical standard that it is just plain wrong to stand back and let an entire people die. The argument applies equally to the Menk as well as the Valakians. This isn't a matter of choosing which one lives and which one dies: ethical responsibility dictates that you do everything in your power to save both.

[Junghalli]

Unless the Valakians did this to themselves. But I can't think of why unless they were trying to wipe out the Menks and screwed up somehow, which makes this attempt to save themselves hilariously ironic in it's failure, if that were true.

Or maybe it was some crazy extremist group among them that agreed with Phlox and Archer (that the Valakians should die so the Menk could achieve their "full potential"). Or maybe a crazy extremist group with some other agenda. Like maybe they're like those Armageddon nuts who want to hasten the apocalypse. Or maybe they're like the RL Church of Euthanasia, and they just hate their own kind so much they think they should go extinct. Or, heck, for all we know it's some faction among them that secretly has their own cure. Lots of possibilities.

Yeah but, according to Memory Alpha, the Menk were getting smarter at an increasing rate. Like, every generation. They're not plateauing, they're actually getting BETTER. Not stagnant, but better. Indeed, that seemed to be the major plot point, that they rapidly learned English somehow. So if they weren't as smart as the Valakians already they were quickly becoming so. Indeed, it seems to be the Valakians that plateaued, and rather spectacularly at that.

It could be that this is due to some kind of selective pressure catalyzed by interacting with the more advanced Valakians. The smartest Menk would be able to interact with them better and thus maybe get a better life for themselves and better reproductive opportunities? Or maybe it's some kind of "envy effect" that creates sexual and social selection within the Menk for those most like their overlords. There's precedent for similar behavior in humans with stuff like black on black racism based on the lighter ones looking down on the darker ones.

If this is true, wiping out the Valakians might ironically stop them from getting smarter.

Also, even if the Valakians really were holding back the Menk, it's not like wiping them out would necessarily be required to get them to treat them better. If Earth wanted to make them treat the Menk better it has huge leverage over them, since it has the cure.

[Chris OFarrell]

Deleted dog pile on 18's ability to completely miss the point and misunderstand everything..

[18-Till-I-Die]

The thing is, and I've looked long and hard at Memory Alpha, it's made very clear the Menks are getting smarter. Not because of some envy, but that they're progressively smarter on a racial level. And according to the synopsis, one of them did learn some English (an alien language which, again, he's never heard before) and that's not exactly easy. Do you think you could pick up even crude Mandarin by casual contact with a guy from Hong Kong? I mean...maybe you could, but you'd have to be pretty fast on the uptake right? That's the point they were trying to make: the Menks were getting progressively more and more advanced, and the Valakians were in fact the ones who had stagnated.

Really I hadn't thought about it but I think that's the subtext here: the Valakians are basically at a literal dead end. They have no more technology, no more science, no nothing. They're on a mobius strip of fail. The Menks on the other hand are ascending. They're getting smarter and doing it faster, and they may soon begin to assert their own individuality and shrug off this disturbing "owner-pet" like mentality the Valakians are so happy to engage in. That, is what I think the writers meant by "holding them back": the Valakians have nothing more to do, they've literally peaked and now it's all down hill. The Menks are the next generation, in effect, moving up to replace their precursors.

As for why this is happening...I still think that, inbreeding may be the most likely cause. We know for a fact that after generations of inbreeding, such flaws appear in humans. Impotence, genetic disorders, defmonation, et al. It just seems like no one would purposefully do that to a species, it's too random you know...why the Valakians of all people? What not the Menks? How do the Menks have the cure in their genes somehow (the "immunity" and all)? It just seems like maybe some kind of random mutation, like they said, it just hit them at a bad time so they get to enjoy the double whammy of dying out as a species and watching their slaves sprint past them.

[Glom]

I imagine it ending as a decimated populace enacts a harsh vengeance on the Menk, annihilating them and forcing themselves to flee their world. Between their genetic treatments and the effects of surviving and rebuilding in an alien world, they become accustomed to wearing full body suits and wearing large masks to protect themselves from the environment. As they enter the galactic community, they would be hostile to all except the Ferengi (mentioned in this episode as having had contact with them, and probably would be the ones to eventually sell them the cure), accustomed to using aliens as slaves the same way the Menk were used after their treachery was discovered. Eventually, when the time was right, they would avenge themselves on Starfleet by bombing their headquarters in San Francisco two and a quarter centuries after the betrayal of their people.

Nerd orgasm!!

Imagine if this had been followed up later in the series run. As the Valakians flee, the embittered leader seeks out Archer for a bit of the old wrathing and writhing. He wants vengeance for his people before he dies. After a brutal battle, he retreats to his homeworld where, in a dark and cold hospital chamber, his wounds are treated and his mask is put on him. Cut to a scene of Archer and co musing on the tragedy of it all, then cut back to the smokey hospital room with the operating table being lifted to stand the Valakian upright in full regata. He asks his Ferengi benefactors where his wife is (did I mention his wife dies? Yeah that's kind of important somehow, someway). The Ferengi says she's dead. Enraged even more than he already was, he breaks free of his bonds on the operating table and screams, "NOOOOO!!!!!"

Of course, what would really sell the moment would be two things. First, the writers would need to go back in time to expand the role of the Breen in the 24th century Trek. As it stands, they had a secondary role in the twilight of DS9. An origin story is much more effective when it's for something that was really important. Second, the reveal of the Breen helmet must be kept until the final "Arise Thot Vader" scene to give it the maximum whammy effect.

[Darth Wong]

The thing is, and I've looked long and hard at Memory Alpha, it's made very clear the Menks are getting smarter. Not because of some envy, but that they're progressively smarter on a racial level. And according to the synopsis, one of them did learn some English (an alien language which, again, he's never heard before) and that's not exactly easy. Do you think you could pick up even crude Mandarin by casual contact with a guy from Hong Kong? I mean...maybe you could, but you'd have to be pretty fast on the uptake right? That's the point they were trying to make: the Menks were getting progressively more and more advanced, and the Valakians were in fact the ones who had stagnated.

Really I hadn't thought about it but I think that's the subtext here: the Valakians are basically at a literal dead end. They have no more technology, no more science, no nothing. They're on a mobius strip of fail. The Menks on the other hand are ascending. They're getting smarter and doing it faster, and they may soon begin to assert their own individuality and shrug off this disturbing "owner-pet" like mentality the Valakians are so happy to engage in. That, is what I think the writers meant by "holding them back": the Valakians have nothing more to do, they've literally peaked and now it's all down hill. The Menks are the next generation, in effect, moving up to replace their precursors.

As for why this is happening...I still think that, inbreeding may be the most likely cause. We know for a fact that after generations of inbreeding, such flaws appear in humans. Impotence, genetic disorders, defmonation, et al. It just seems like no one would purposefully do that to a species, it's too random you know...why the Valakians of all people? What not the Menks? How do the Menks have the cure in their genes somehow (the "immunity" and all)? It just seems like maybe some kind of random mutation, like they said, it just hit them at a bad time so they get to enjoy the double whammy of dying out as a species and watching their slaves sprint past them.

In other words, "It's happening, therefore we should not interfere". Nice non sequitur.

[Sonnenburg]

Nerd orgasm!!

Of course, what would really sell the moment would be two things. First, the writers would need to go back in time to expand the role of the Breen in the 24th century Trek. As it stands, they had a secondary role in the twilight of DS9. An origin story is much more effective when it's for something that was really important. Second, the reveal of the Breen helmet must be kept until the final "Arise Thot Vader" scene to give it the maximum whammy effect.

I forgot to mention that not all the Menk died. The Ferengi took a few tribes to sell on the slave market, but given their incompetence (shown in Acquisition, and pretty much every other Ferengi story), the Menk managed to overcome them and take over, trying in vain to get any of the damn things to work. And that species, so full of potential and now finally without the Valakians holding them back, sit around on their asses all day, gorging themselves on the contents of the replicators and harassing everyone who comes near, trying to get them to help them out. So while Kirk and the Enterprise are on their way to investigate the emerging Breen threat, they keep getting hailed by these guys going: "We need things. Things that make us go." "Teeth are for chewing!"

[Junghalli]

Are the Valakians actually stagnant? I don't see anything about stagnation on Memory Alpha. And even if they were it doesn't mean they're an inevitable evolutionary dead end; humans were pretty stagnant for much of our history after all.

I can't really comment anymore on the Menk getting smarter and being more intelligent than it looks as I haven't watched the episode. However, I did find something interesting about the Valakians' disease.

The Enterprise offered to aid in search for a cure and while they were visiting the planet, the ship's doctor, Phlox, discovered that the epidemic wasn't being caused by a virus or bacteria. Instead, the illness was genetic; the proteins that bind to Valakian chromosomes were deteriorating. This had been going on for thousands of years but the rate of mutation had accelerated over the last few generations. Based on his projections, Phlox predicted that the Valakians would be extinct by the 24th century.

Emphasis mine. This is interesting because the DNA itself is not deteriorating: it sounds like it's a disease that attacks the histone proteins that bind the chromosomes together. Well, the "mutations are accelerating" part suggests it does effect the DNA, but I imagine that might have something to do with the fact the chromosomes are fraying apart. I imagine that can't be good for the integrity of the actual genome.

This suggests that the Valakians' problem isn't necessarily that they're an unviable species; they have a very specific problem with the histone proteins coming undone (of course, this may cause secondary genetic damage). And if this wording is accurate to the episode there's no reason to think it's necessarily a faulty gene that's making the histones come undone. For all we know it could very well be that there's some environmental toxin on the Valakian homeworld, perhaps pollution from heavy industry, that attacks Valakian histone proteins. The Menk apparently have somewhat different histone proteins that are less vulnerable. Honestly, this makes a hell of a lot more sense that the evolution as teleology tripe we got in the episode.

Besides, I find it incredibly amusing that I can use the writers' own scientific ignorance to undermine their own retarded message. That's what you get for writing stuff down without actually knowing what you're saying!

Edit: wow Sonnenburg, you came up with a cool explanation for Pakleds. I'm impressed.

[Sonnenburg]

And according to the synopsis, one of them did learn some English (an alien language which, again, he's never heard before) and that's not exactly easy. Do you think you could pick up even crude Mandarin by casual contact with a guy from Hong Kong?

I don't think I would, especially considering a guy from Hong Kong would likely be speaking Cantonese. Keshi, ta keneng xuixi cong wo.


None of that has any bearing on the morality of those in charge. To say otherwise would be to imply that doctors should be free to not treat people if they think they are bad people. Would you really think that would be ethically right, because it's no different than saying an entire species should die out, based upon nothing more than your interpretation of what someone else wrote about what someone said who was just expressing an opinion on what they saw during a brief visit.

[18-Till-I-Die]

The Valakians had progressed to a certain point, but a major plot point is that they don't have warp or antimater technologies. They have, at best, a very crude understanding of both, and even then no working examples. Or put another way they're about as close to building an antimatter reactor as we are, ditto for the warp drive.

Anyway, I seriously don't think this is evolution (a shock, I know!) but even still some phenomenon is making the Menks advance on a racial, species level and making the Valakians die off. The two seem to be linked, as it's all but outright said that the death of the Valakians is directly proportunate to the progressive sophistication of the Menk.

Now what that means, I can't possibly say.

I have no idea what to call it. The only thing I can think of is that some aspect of the Menk allowed them to grow stronger when the Valakians started dying off. Maybe, if the idea of some kind of pollution is the case, it may be a literal case of some kind of cause and effect. Whatever chemical is killing the Valakians is similarly enhancing the Menk. But that's all pure speculation.

Let me point this out however: according to Memory Alpha, by the 24th century the planet Valakis is called "planet Menk". So evidently the Valakians took a nose dive and the Menk run the place now.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Heh, a hilariously ironic notion just struck me...

What if the chemical pollutant causing their demise is on the "good land" they took from the Menks, and the fact the Valakians segregated the Menks is what has caused the latter to be safe from the pollutant. By putting the Menk on these distant "reservations", they make them so isolated from the pollutant that the Menk have emerged unscathed from this.

In that case, the Menk's progressing intellect is just a coincidence. Also, frankly, it would kind of be the Twilight Zone-like twist that the episode needed.

[Darth Wong]

Heh, a hilariously ironic notion just struck me...

Hey, a hilariously ironic notion just struck me ...

What if the disease affected the Menk instead of the Valakians? Would your argument be the same? After all, they're clearly losers, and they're dying out naturally, and they're headed out anyway, so there's no point saving them. Right?

[18-Till-I-Die]

If it goes one way it goes the other, if the Menk are suffering from a literal inability to function on such a basic level that then, yeah I'd say that they probably are going to be fucked up no matter what you do. Think about it, the only way that could happen is either by massive inbreeding or some outside force, like pollution. If it's the latter then...well it'd probably be the Valakians fault but that's irrelevent now, but on the other side of the coin if it's inbreeding then they fucked themselves into a hole so it's no one's fault.

Whatever screwed them up that badly isn't going to just go away, it's a terminal genetic fuck up of mammoth proportions and handwaving it away with some magic drug is really impossible at that point. Whatever caused that mutation would still be there, because by their own admition it's hardwired in their DNA. So unless the cure re-writes they're DNA they're still fucked. Whatever mutation caused the disease would still be there if the DNA is still there, unless this "cure" changes their DNA some how at which point it just gets silly. At best it would maybe be a treatment to stop you from dying, not a literal cure.

They'd still be fucked, and in that case, really the Valakians just look kind of stupid for taking such shitty care of their pets or property or however they see the Menk. And if it is pollution it's likely Valakians caused it (mind you only possible if the roles were reversed since the Menk have no industry, so they couldn't cause pollution to fuck up the Valakians) and then it still counts as a shitty job at pet ownership.