Fistfights and strength question

[saurc]

Picard and co. land on Vulcan in the TNG episode 'The Gambit'. They don't show any adverse effects at all.

[Junghalli]

Here's another one: does it even make sense for a (more or less) normal humanoid species to evolve in a 2g world? All of that extra weight on two legs seems like a disadvantage to me, in evolutionary terms. Wouldn't species with more legs (to spread out the weight -- imagine walking on soft or brittle surfaces), and a body lower to the ground make more sense?

The Vulcans make no sense as an alien anyway - what with looking just like humans except for pointed ears and being able to interbreed with them. Personally I think, like most Trek aliens, they're probably transplanted and genetically modified hominids. There's precedent for it (the Preservers).

I'd expect hominids living on a high gravity world to evolve into squat, powerful people though, so your argument would hold even for that.

[speaker-to-trolls]

FWI the Aztec war clubs had sharpened obsidian attached and they caused horrific wounds. They were not anything to poke fun at. They were downright nasty.

The next thing you are going to tell me is native american arrow heads were terrible weapons because they were made of flint/obsidian/rock.

The ability to cause nasty wounds doesn't make your weapon the equal of a Castillian sword, or able to cut through steel plate (as far as I know). Aztec military equipment was good enough for what they did with it, and it was certainly good enough to kill people (though that actually wasn't what it was meant to do), but it was still primitive next to what the spanish had. That was my point.

[Broomstick]

Here's another one: does it even make sense for a (more or less) normal humanoid species to evolve in a 2g world? All of that extra weight on two legs seems like a disadvantage to me, in evolutionary terms. Wouldn't species with more legs (to spread out the weight -- imagine walking on soft or brittle surfaces), and a body lower to the ground make more sense?

You can make that exact same argument about bipeds in 1g, yet there are bipeds even larger than we are (see ostriches). Bipedalism has arisen more than once on Earth, but not very often. Evolution isn't about making "sense", it's about who leaves the most offspring regardless of their cobbled-together weird-ass bodies.

[seanrobertson]

To nitpick again: being 300% stronger than the average guy isn't super-strength. Superhuman strength entails something a human can't attain.

Just to nitpick your nitpick

I love it

, but I don't think that Vulcans are 300% stronger than your average guy -- they seem to be 300% stronger than an above-average (or exceptional) guy. Kirk is a pretty exceptional guy, though not in the circus freak strongman kind of way.

That's a fair point. I'd have to say that Shatner circa the early/mid-60s was, in fact, quite average; nonetheless, Kirk was a pretty tough hombre.

Keep in mind, however, that my nitpick was rooted in the definition of "superhuman strength." Even if we assume Kirk's half-again stronger than the average guy, that wouldn't put purported Vulcan strength into the realm of the superhuman -- which, by my estimation, would be significantly stronger than elite "raw"* powerlifters.

*Powerlifting as of late's become a mockery of itself. A few men have benched in excess of 1,000 pounds, but only with the aid of something called a "bench shirt": increasingly multi-layered shirts that are so tight, they yield a kind of "spring" action off-the-chest. Many men who don such shirts to move amazing weights can't do 700 lbs. without them, so the gear's doing the lifter ridiculous favors. As-is, the raw bench record remains "only" in the low 700s.

As usual, I'm digressing I simply wanted to put that triple-strength modifier into perspective. It is strong, but superhuman? Not even close.

Recall the scene when Kirk and Spock mixed it up, while Spock was under the influence of the spores, and Kirk's plan was to get Spock really angry. Kirk starts out with a weapon that looks like a length of aluminum tube (or possibly round bar), and one blow from Spock turns it into a v-shaped piece of modern art. That's not normal human territory, unless Kirk started out with a ridiculously thin-walled piece of tube.

I remember Kirk insulting Spock, calling him a computer and the like; I also remember some of the ensuing fight. I don't remember Spock bending anything in the fight, though (I'll be 31 in a few weeks ... getting old and forgetful, I guess ). Could I trouble you for a screencap?

I only ask because there are [incredibly strong] men who've bent 3/4" steel bars -- certainly not with a hand-chop, but bent the things just the same.

[seanrobertson]

2 gees would exhaust the average man faster than you can say, "Jack Robinson." Simply standing up and walking around would be like Kirk carrying a 170 (?) lb. barbell on his back.

Not quite that bad - sure, you'd get tired a LOT quicker, particularly at first, but I got used to pulling 1.5 to 2 g's as a pilot, and when I was practicing maneuvers I'd spend a substantial portion of an hour or two doing it. Having heavy eyelids is kinda weird, but I emphasize that this increased weight really is distributed over your entire body, you're not lifting it with just your arms.

It was hyperbole, but I meant it in the context of Kirk fighting Spock on a supposed 2 gee Vulcan. Walking around or, especially, sitting, would be one thing; getting knocked down with the wind out of you, only to have to quickly regain your footing and hold your ground against Crazy Spock ... well, that's another. If Kirk's 170-190 lbs. circa "Amok Time," once he hit the ground, he'd find himself struggling to breathe and trying to get up as a 340-380 pounder.

A more pressing problem is that your reactions will be off - in increased gravity if you reach for something you'll undershoot. You get used to it, but it could be hazardous. Things fall faster and hit harder, so either dropping something on your foot, or falling down, could make injury more likely. The elderly, ill, overweight, or otherwise impaired could have serious problems, but for a heathly, fit human being I'd say 2 g's are entirely possible.

My barbell-atop-the-back analogy was the most practical thing I could think of; still, Singular's right: the best analogue we have are morbidly obese, 500 lb.-plus types. I've yet to meet such a person who could spar with a Spock-sized opponent for more than 30 seconds before nearly collapsing from oxygen debt.

[SCRawl]

I remember Kirk insulting Spock, calling him a computer and the like; I also remember some of the ensuing fight. I don't remember Spock bending anything in the fight, though (I'll be 31 in a few weeks ... getting old and forgetful, I guess ). Could I trouble you for a screencap?

I only ask because there are [incredibly strong] men who've bent 3/4" steel bars -- certainly not with a hand-chop, but bent the things just the same.

Here is the scene in question, with an...amusing voice-over. Spock bends up the tube or round bar (or whatever) at around the 2:50 mark.

I can empathize with your memory issues. At 37.5, I'm even older and (likely) more forgetful.

[Skylon]

I didn't catch this brought up, but I remember Kruge (the Klingon played by Christopher Lloyd in ST:III) gave Kirk a good beating, lifting him up by the throat with both hands.

Not super-strength, like Khan...or even Spock, but he didn't seem to be a push-over.

Wasn't therea bit during the bar fight in "Trouble With Tribbles" of Chekov punching a Klingon a few times and him basically standing there like it was nothing? Granted, since the rest of the fighters seemed evenly matched, so maybe we can take this as "Chekov's a wuss."

[Darth Wong]

Well that's the problem, isn't it? There's sufficient variation between humans that you could easily see one human overpower another in similar fashion.

[Kythnos]

I don't think it is the higher gravity is behind the enhanced strength.
Correct me when I make a mistake here:

Most of the "weight" we feel is because we are standing under an "ocean" of air. If the air pressure on Vulcan is less than earth normal, that might completely offset the higher G.

[Singular Intellect]

I don't think it is the higher gravity is behind the enhanced strength.
Correct me when I make a mistake here:

Most of the "weight" we feel is because we are standing under an "ocean" of air. If the air pressure on Vulcan is less than earth normal, that might completely offset the higher G.

You're thinking two dimensionally. Our atmospheric pressure is compressing you over your entire surface area with roughly fouteen pounds of force (at sea level, if I remember correctly).

If you go underwater to a depth of a couple of miles, you will have a crushing force of over two tons per squre inch on your body.

However, you still exist in a one G enviroment, regardless of the fact that you're essentially floating in a liquid medium while being crushed into equilibrium mush.

[erik_t]

As for a realistic sense of what it would be like to walk around in 2g, try actually carrying that much weight around and trying to walk naturally. It's not going to happen. Even if you can carry weights back and forth on the job which add up to your own body weight, you need to compare that to the ease with which you would walk that same distance unloaded. Yes, you can do it, but it's exhausting. Imagine having to work that hard just to walk anywhere or do anything.

A few days late, but oh well. The obvious and superior example is portaging a canoe on a wilderness trip, particularly the so-called "single portage" in which one carries the canoe on one's shoulders and all of one's gear on the back. (You're Canadian, how do you not know this?! )

Anyway, one of the canonical sources on BWCAW/Quetico should be consulted (Google books link). Page 89-91ish, "Packing for the Portage", discusses the single portage, and suggests pack weights of around 30lb (plus a 45-50lb two-man canoe). When portaging, distances are measured in "rods" (16ft, about one canoe length), and anything in excess of 100 rods can start to become a Big Deal.

I threw that in so this post wasn't entirely anecdotal. So here's the anecdotal part. I've done the single portage thing, probably with more like a 40lb pack (whoops). This weight was almost all on my hips. The canoe, at 47lb, was on my shoulders. This ends up being a pretty good approximation to a evenly-heavier body (unfortunately I've never tried wearing a suit of armor). I ran a marathon a few years ago; I'm probably in better shape than 90% of the population. A 189-rod portage (about half a mile / 1km), flatter than the terrain we saw on Vulcan in TOS, was damned taxing. The kind of taxing where you start mentally yelling encouragement and/or threats at yourself, and let out a manly war cry as you drop the canoe at the other end.

This is walking (bordering on staggering) on fairly flat ground for half a mile, at 1.5x body weight. On the way back home, we all dreaded this half-mile. It is not to be underestimated. I could certainly not fight anything but a toy poodle in such a condition.

On the plus side, I didn't see any mosquitoes on Vulcan.

[Uraniun235]

Wasn't therea bit during the bar fight in "Trouble With Tribbles" of Chekov punching a Klingon a few times and him basically standing there like it was nothing? Granted, since the rest of the fighters seemed evenly matched, so maybe we can take this as "Chekov's a wuss."

Yeah, Chekov was aiming at the Klingon's midsection, and he didn't look like he was doing it very well. I'd say Chekov just sucks at hand-to-hand combat - he's not 'an older man who's escaped the clutches of fate countless times like our invincible captain,' after all.

[DoctorPhanan]

It would be nice to see examples of scrawny, weak champion wrestlers and boxers, to substantiate this belief that strength doesn't matter.

Only Mohammed Ali comes to mind. Even he was no wimp.

Jack Dempsey v Jess Willard is another example of this. But as previously discussed, though Dempsey was smaller than Willard, His physical strength was not that of a child compared to an adult.