Fistfights and strength question

[saurc]

According to many episodes, Vulcans are 3 times as strong as humans. So are Klingons. So are Jem'Hadar .Romulans share many Vulcan physical features, so they must be, as well. And I suppose there are many other races as well which are supposed to be physically 'superior' to humans.

However whenever any human gets into a fistfight with these alien races, he/she wins or has a fighting chance. Why would that be if they're supposed to be 3 times weaker?

In fact this 'strength' is only valid in TOS for Spock, where he is like many times stronger than Kirk, for example. After that though, it seems to have lost it's validity.

Tuvok in Voyager displays Vulcan behaviour- logic and lack of emotion, but super strength? Never. Archer regularly kicks Vulcan ass in Enterprise. The DS9 characters often own the Jem'Hadar in fistfights. Klingons are really pathetic at melee combat even inspite of all that batleth training ( eg. DS9- Way of the Warrior ).

So is this 'strength' a sort of brainbug from TOS era that the writers conveniently decided to abandon while getting their main characters into fistfights. Or is there some explanation?

[DarkAscendant]

Character shields.

[Bellator]

There was a DS9 baseball ep which established Vulcan superior strenght. It was a big plot point. That ep also talked about Sisko getting his ass kicked by a Vulcan in wrestling.

[Uraniun235]

Klingons are really pathetic at melee combat even inspite of all that batleth training ( eg. DS9- Way of the Warrior ).

Do they really go through a lot of training? As far as I know the only guy we see doing it a lot is Worf - and he's good enough to win championships in whatever the hell "fighting with bat'leths" is called. ("it's called stupid hehehehehehehehhh", got that out of the way) Klingons in general may like to brawl with each other at times but that has no bearing at all on martial prowess.


I'm sure if you asked a Trek producer, they'd shrug and say something about "well Starfleet probably has a good self-defense program or something, I dunno".

[Captain Seafort]

So is this 'strength' a sort of brainbug from TOS era that the writers conveniently decided to abandon while getting their main characters into fistfights. Or is there some explanation?

I wouldn't call it a brainbug - that term refers to an offhand comment that gets blown up out of all proportion, whereas this is something that was concieved as a plot point in TOS (for Vulcans, and by extension Romulans, at least), and adhered to pretty well for the rest of the series. When the various sequels came along, they discovered that they wanted to have their lead characters beat the snot out of various aliens, so the concept was quietly swept under the carpet.

The same applies to the Jem'Hadar, albeit it disappeared much faster - it makes sense for the Founders to make their genetically-engineered super soldiers super strong, but there's a singular lack of evidence to support it.

The "Klingons are much stronger than humans" probably counts as a brainbug though - I can't recall anything to that effect from TOS.

[Swindle1984]

McCoy stated that Khan was physically strong enough to lift him and Kirk simultaneously with one arm, Khan stated he was several times stronger than Kirk, and yet Kirk still kicked his ass in hand-to-hand combat.

Physical strength in Trek seems to be like character traits assigned in badly-written fanfic (where a character is constantly described as selfless and heroic, but in actuality is a selfish dick): the fluff is there, but it's not backed up by the real deal.

[Samuel]

Presumably coming out of cold sleep screwed with Khan a bit. They did manage to show SPocks strength- he beat up all four of them in Mirror, Mirror.

[Singular Intellect]

Presumably coming out of cold sleep screwed with Khan a bit.

If that's the case, the example in said episode where he crumpled a phaser pistol with his bare hands as if it were merely a prop toy is even more impressive.

[Marcus Aurelius]

The "Klingons are much stronger than humans" probably counts as a brainbug though - I can't recall anything to that effect from TOS.

Klingons didn't have wrinkled foreheads in TOS either... For practical purposes the NG era Klingons are not the same species as TOS Klingons. They look different and they behave differently.

[Broomstick]

Tuvok in Voyager displays Vulcan behaviour- logic and lack of emotion, but super strength? Never.

If I recall, Tuvok in Voyager was at least middle-aged, whereas Spock in TOS was relatively young. It is possible that Tuvok had less strength because he was considerably older as declining strength with advancing age in hardly unknown in Earth species and might be the same in other, non-terrestrial species.

There is also most likely a considerable difference in fighting ability between members of different species, particularly something like Vulcans who make practice martial arts for exercise and mental benefits but most of whom would avoid combat even if they are interstellar travelers.

That doesn't explain why Klingons are such inept fighters hand-to-hand, of course.

[Uraniun235]

McCoy stated that Khan was physically strong enough to lift him and Kirk simultaneously with one arm, Khan stated he was several times stronger than Kirk, and yet Kirk still kicked his ass in hand-to-hand combat.

Kirk only got the upper hand because he got his hands on a big metal... dealie. If he hadn't been able to improvise a weapon out of some widget in engineering, Khan would have won.

[Junghalli]

If that's the case, the example in said episode where he crumpled a phaser pistol with his bare hands as if it were merely a prop toy is even more impressive.

Don't forget that scene in the movie where he casually threw away a big piece of wall like it was made of styrofoam.

[saurc]

Tuvok in Voyager displays Vulcan behaviour- logic and lack of emotion, but super strength? Never.

If I recall, Tuvok in Voyager was at least middle-aged, whereas Spock in TOS was relatively young. It is possible that Tuvok had less strength because he was considerably older as declining strength with advancing age in hardly unknown in Earth species and might be the same in other, non-terrestrial species.

There is also most likely a considerable difference in fighting ability between members of different species, particularly something like Vulcans who make practice martial arts for exercise and mental benefits but most of whom would avoid combat even if they are interstellar travelers.

That doesn't explain why Klingons are such inept fighters hand-to-hand, of course.

Spock was 70-something by the time of the movies , and 136 in the TNG episode 'Unification'. ( in this epsiode Picard knocks out a Romulan with a single punch, and Spock doesn't show any super strength here ). Tuvok is anything between 90 and 129 depending on which episode you watch.

Also Tuvok is full-vulcan while Spock is only half. So that explanation doesn't match.

[Solauren]

Maybe it's development potiental that is greater then humans.

i.e Vulcans in top physical condition are 2 x 3 times stronger then human in top condition, etc. Jem'ha'dar are 2 - 3 times, etc

Meanwhile, the grunts that are not in top condition are nothing special compared to nothing special humans.

[Samuel]

Maybe it's development potiental that is greater then humans.

i.e Vulcans in top physical condition are 2 x 3 times stronger then human in top condition, etc. Jem'ha'dar are 2 - 3 times, etc

Meanwhile, the grunts that are not in top condition are nothing special compared to nothing special humans.

That doesn't really work for the Jem ha dar. They tend to be less than a couple years old and they can control what kinds are made- how would they vary that much?

[Bounty]

That doesn't really work for the Jem ha dar. They tend to be less than a couple years old and they can control what kinds are made- how would they vary that much?

Quality of their White, cloning errors, errors from accelerated growth (maybe better Jem'Hadar need to gestate more slowly?), batches optimised for a longer life span or reduced White consumption with correspondingly reduced physical strength... these are mass-produced, low-quality grunts; "three times stronger than humans" may be the template, but in the face of visual evidence I see no reason why we would assume all specimens follow that template perfectly.

[Ender]

Like size, brute strength matters a lot less in a fight than most people think it does. That isn't to say it is irrelevant, but knowing how to handle yourself is a much bigger deal. On screen, we don't see what appears to be very much of this, but handwaving and citing training is probably the best explanation for consistency's sake.

Also, there is the question of endurance. That is another major factor, and something we can point to without much difficulty given the unknown differences in xenobiology

[NecronLord]

It occurs to me, with mention of Khan, that the 'every other major race is stronger than humans' actually makes sense - if the Federation is the only one not to adopt genetic engineering.

[Captain Kruger]

It occurs to me, with mention of Khan, that the 'every other major race is stronger than humans' actually makes sense - if the Federation is the only one not to adopt genetic engineering.

That would fit perfectly with their "we handicap ourselves in the name of morality" mindset.

[Swindle1984]

If that's the case, the example in said episode where he crumpled a phaser pistol with his bare hands as if it were merely a prop toy is even more impressive.

Don't forget that scene in the movie where he casually threw away a big piece of wall like it was made of styrofoam.

He also grabbed Chekov, who was wearing a bulky spacesuit, and lifted him with one hand and held him in the air without straining.

Like size, brute strength matters a lot less in a fight than most people think it does. That isn't to say it is irrelevant, but knowing how to handle yourself is a much bigger deal. On screen, we don't see what appears to be very much of this, but handwaving and citing training is probably the best explanation for consistency's sake.

Also, there is the question of endurance. That is another major factor, and something we can point to without much difficulty given the unknown differences in xenobiology

This is true. I'm one of the weakest people in my subject control class and I can easily throw around people who are much larger and stronger than I am and handcuff them. Technique trumps brute strength, but if you have both then you're a fucking juggernaut.

As for Starfleet having superior training in hand-to-hand combat... While the Klingons tend to fight like drunken, undisciplined oafs, Trek-fu invariably involves a really weak punch or lacing your fingers together and hitting your opponent in the stomach and head in a move guaranteed to hurt you more than them. And it's so slow, anyone who actually knew how to fight could have ripped you a new one before you got the first hit in. But it always works.

[Samuel]

But it always works.

Not against... the clown!

[Coalition]

Voyager: "Blood Fever" has Torres (half Klingon/half human) fighting and winning against Ensign Vorrik (full Vulcan)

This could be either character shields, Pon Farr decreasing strength, Vorrik not able to handle the emotions, or Vorrik wasn't as strong as 'regular' Vulcans.

[Junghalli]

Voyager: "Blood Fever" has Torres (half Klingon/half human) fighting and winning against Ensign Vorrik (full Vulcan)

This could be either character shields, Pon Farr decreasing strength, Vorrik not able to handle the emotions, or Vorrik wasn't as strong as 'regular' Vulcans.

Aren't Klingons supposed to be stronger than humans too? Meaning Torres could very well have above normal human strength (especially if the trait is heterozygous dominant, like brown eyes).

As I recall from Sonnenberg's reviews, in that episode where the Vidians split her in two the full-human Torres complained about feeling weak.

[lord Martiya]

That doesn't explain why Klingons are such inept fighters hand-to-hand, of course.

Maybe they're so fond of their famous super strenght that they don't train a lot anymore. Then they discover that if they're not in top physical condition they can be kicked around by people who IS in top physical condition.

[Bounty]

That doesn't explain why Klingons are such inept fighters hand-to-hand, of course.

I always thought it was just a complete lack of formal training. Officers are mostly drawn from noble Houses so they are probably expected to know how to handle themselves in hand-to-hand, except they don't because most hand-to-hand they would train for is ritualized and antiquated; and with no shortage of volunteers for the lower ranks there's little incentive for extensive training when you can just send a batch into battle and promote the ones who come back.

And that's a fine system if your troops are worth less than their uniforms and you've got excellent engineers to give you the firepower advantage needed to make up for poor skills; psychological warfare and strength in numbers are probably more than enough to keep the AQ powers at bay. It just kinda deflates when you step back and look at it in detail.