Plot inconsistency in ST:FC

[PREDATOR490]

Sending a ship back in time over one of their own worlds will most likely cause issues with past Borg.

Not necessarily. They could launch from a planet that hadn't been assimilated or colonized yet in 2063. Or they could just make part of the trip in the present, stop briefly in interstellar space, do their time jump, and then make the rest of the trip in the past.

It still has risk no matter what you do. the logical standpoint from time travel would be to minimise the amount of damage you are doing by restricting the variables.
In this case, going back over Earth limits their interference strictly to a non-space faring race with no allies. Going back elsewhere forces them to travel the rest of the way which can easily lead to them encountering unforseen things like wandering ships, natural space creatures or the boat load of crap Star Trek series have encountered in their travels.

At the very least, traveling to Earth using a conventional drive could attract the Vulcans which definetly makes things worse for a Borg force on Earth. Even if they have several hundred years worth of technology. The simple fact is they will have one ship to defend an entire planet from aggressors while expending the resources to create a functioning base. The more attention they attract the greater their influence on the timeline becomes thus their knowledge of the future goes down the pan and perhaps even their existance to begin with.

Going on the logic of killing Janeway... if they were to 'accidentally' assimilate / kill a relation to Picard etc. wouldnt that literally cause their 'new' timeline to be erased because without Picard the E-D's history changes which throws out everything that happened in TNG, including BOBW, Q,Who etc.
This stuff gives me a headache and from what I understand of Star Trek style time travel, by going down this road the Borg are taking an enormous risk for very little gain.

If you take the theory that they are jumping to a 'different' reality then they have no gurantees that the Borg / Earth will be the same there or how they will respond. Additionally, these Borg may not have the proper support base established to extend the collective link from the DQ to the AQ.
Even if they succeed in taking out Earth they will still end up having to go up against local powers with a single ship. It will no doubt take the past collective considerable time to catch up on several hundred years worth of advances before they managed to properly support the future versions.

Of course, all these problems are also present with the "go to Earth, get ass whupped by Federation fleet, then go back in time" plan.

This is easy to say in hindsight.
The Borg do not have the luxury of knowing what's going to happen. They underestimated the strength of the Federation resistance which isnt that bad a mistake in their arsenal. The major reason for the increase in Federation muscle was the threat from the Dominion. Without that factor I find it likely the Federation would still be messing around with fancy prototypes like the Prometheus rather than building Norway's, Sabres, Akiras and Defiants.

Even with that muscle the cube was more than capable of sustaining a running firefight with the Federation fleet and had effectively reduced them to a rabble without a leader. I might be giving Starfleet more credit than it is due but I would expect them to have the same level of training as Picard which effectively means Picard would have had the E-E shooting randomly without his 'inspiration'. In such a case, I would expect the Borg to instantly target the E-E and destroy it like they always seem to do with 'leader' ships.

In either case, I would say the Borg suffered from over-confidence and general lack of intrest. The Borg have shown the ability to use fleets to assimilate worlds and defend their own territory from attack so realistically, it looks like the Borg arent that vested in assimilating Earth right the fuck now. Leaving the Federation alone and leaching off their technology is potentially more beneficial and can even save the Borg like Scorpian demonstrated so essentially the Borg are 'toying' with the Federation until they reach a point where the Borg see something of real intrest.

[Singular Intellect]

Leaving the Federation alone and leaching off their technology is potentially more beneficial and can even save the Borg like Scorpian demonstrated so essentially the Borg are 'toying' with the Federation until they reach a point where the Borg see something of real intrest.

You know, it's interesting to note that in one Voyager episode the Borg seem to be doing just that. Quick googling on my part, and the episode is "Child's Play" where one of the Borg kids was about to be returned home. And as I recall the Borg kept attacking his home planet every time they detected anything of interest, yet they never fully assimilated all the residents.

[KlavoHunter]

It's possible that the Borg were only attacking the Federation just to provoke an 'adaption response' in the Federation, to see what new technology they came up with, and assimilate it for themselves.

After all, they can afford to throw a cube away every few years to inspire their targets, and maybe milk off some more technology.

[Darth Wong]

The Borg do not have the luxury of knowing what's going to happen. They underestimated the strength of the Federation resistance which isnt that bad a mistake in their arsenal.

If they had the kind of on-demand speed that you think they have, then they should have been able to choose the time and manner of engagement, rather than being harassed for hours as they approached Earth. The only reasonable explanation for the Federation fleet's ability to pound the shit out of that cube is that it does not have the kind of on-demand speed and range you think it has.

In either case, I would say the Borg suffered from over-confidence and general lack of intrest.

Your only evidence for this "general lack of interest" is the fact that they have not sent large fleets to Earth: an argument which pre-supposes that they have the resources to do so. And even if they were over-confident, this vastly superior speed of theirs should have allowed them to avoid the kind of long sustained harassment which led to the destruction of their cube. At the very least, they could have disengaged at will to give their systems enough time to regenerate.

Now we know that a cube can move very quickly through a conduit, but there appeared to be no conduit here. We also know that a cube can move very quickly for a short duration, but it is unfounded speculation to assume that it must therefore be able to do so for a long duration, or that there is no fuel penalty for doing this.

How do you know this cube was not running on a nearly empty fuel tank by the time it got to Federation space? That would explain their failure to use their transwarp to get themselves some breathing space for system regeneration, rather than letting their ship get blown up.

[Singular Intellect]

Wong, in regards to your fuel penalty assertion, it's worth noting "Dark Frontier". Voyager stole a single Borg transwarp coil, with which they managed to shave twenty thousand lightyears off their trip (ignoring they previously taxed it on the Delta flyer flying around Borg space tracking Seven of Nine to rescue her).

I heard or saw zero mention of any fuel issues (according to the Captain apparently they burnt it out), despite the fact that for Voyager fuel tended to be a problem that cropped up frequently.

Given that the relatively tiny Voyager, which experienced frequent fuel problems, can travel such enormous distances with one such coil, it stands to reason that the much larger Borg craft that utilize multiple coils with enormous volume room for fuel storage (despite no problem with Voyager on the issue) could easily travel such distances.

I suppose you could argue that Borg cubes are so much more massive, but as you once liked to point out, those massive cubes are just "empty cardboard boxes".

[Darth Wong]

Wong, in regards to your fuel penalty assertion, it's worth noting "Dark Frontier". Voyager stole a single Borg transwarp coil, with which they managed to shave twenty thousand lightyears off their trip (ignoring they previously taxed it on the Delta flyer flying around Borg space tracking Seven of Nine to rescue her).

I heard or saw zero mention of any fuel issues (according to the Captain apparently they burnt it out), despite the fact that in Voyager fuel tended to be a problem that cropped up frequently.

OK genius, then why don't YOU explain why they refused to step on the gas pedal while they were being pounded? Particularly since we KNOW that they could regenerate much of their damage if they gave themselves some breathing room? For that matter, why the fuck should fuel NOT be a concern, since fuel is something we know they must consume in transit? Your entire argument boils down to the assumption that if Janeway didn't mention it, then they must not have used up any appreciable amount of fuel: a horrendous kind of logic at best and certainly not enough to throw out the only workable explanation for Borg behaviour in STFC.

[Singular Intellect]

Wong, in regards to your fuel penalty assertion, it's worth noting "Dark Frontier". Voyager stole a single Borg transwarp coil, with which they managed to shave twenty thousand lightyears off their trip (ignoring they previously taxed it on the Delta flyer flying around Borg space tracking Seven of Nine to rescue her).

I heard or saw zero mention of any fuel issues (according to the Captain apparently they burnt it out), despite the fact that in Voyager fuel tended to be a problem that cropped up frequently.

OK genius, then why don't YOU explain why they refused to step on the gas pedal while they were being pounded?

Why would they? As far as I saw, the cube was smashing the last little remains of the Federation fleet. Only Picard and his residual Borg connection allowed him to figure out exactly where to hit the cube, forcing it to self destruct. Which frankly was nothing more than another Federation copout of 'attack this non critical area here and and we win!'.

Particularly since we KNOW that they could regenerate much of their damage if they gave themselves some breathing room?

Given the Fed fleet seemed decimated and on the verge of defeat, time to recooperate seemed right around the corner.

For that matter, why the fuck should fuel NOT be a concern, since fuel is something we know they must consume in transit?

I never said anything about fuel not being valid issue, I just don't get where you seem to assert it's a serious problem without evidence.

Your entire argument boils down to the assumption that if Janeway didn't mention it, then they must not have used up any appreciable amount of fuel: a horrendous kind of logic at best and certainly not enough to throw out the only workable explanation for Borg behaviour in STFC.

Given that the tiny Voyager which frequently had fuel problems can travel such an appreciable distance with one coil (and the only limitation stated was the coil itself burnt out), I don't see why a Borg ship with multiple such coils couldn't do the same (undoubtably why the one burnt out, since they're designed to work in conjunction with others).

Especially since such vessels have vastly more room for fuel, and furthermore Borg ships are just 'empty cardboard boxes".

[NecronLord]

(undoubtably why the one burnt out, since they're designed to work in conjunction with others).

Not undoubtably at all.

[PREDATOR490]

The Borg do not have the luxury of knowing what's going to happen. They underestimated the strength of the Federation resistance which isnt that bad a mistake in their arsenal.

If they had the kind of on-demand speed that you think they have, then they should have been able to choose the time and manner of engagement, rather than being harassed for hours as they approached Earth. The only reasonable explanation for the Federation fleet's ability to pound the shit out of that cube is that it does not have the kind of on-demand speed and range you think it has.

It is fairly obvious the Borg method of operation is to steamroller fleets by proceeding slowly, they have the same operation in their drones as they do with their ships. This allows them to literally meet the best the defenders have and assimilate / destroy them. Even if they do have the ability to fly right past a Federation fleet they would end up putting themselves into a worse strategic position.
The Borg havent returned for a proper engagement in 7 years which puts them at a severe disadvantage technologically. They dont know whats happened since the last encoutner which makes jumping directly to Earth extremely dangerous. A cube will not fare much better against the Federation fleet when it is tied to a world it is in the process of assimilating. Going the 'slow' way allows them to engage the defenders, assimilate what they want and adapt to what they can, all the while gaining intelligence on the area. It wouldnt do the Borg many favours to blindly jump into Federation space just as the entire Quadrant erupts in the Dominion war.

The Borg cube was literally sitting on Earth's doorstep so they didnt fare that badly depending on what they were trying to achieve. If that cube was just a messanger to get that Sphere into position then it worked regardless of it's destruction or not. Picard was the only one who seemed to have a clue about pursuing that Sphere. If he hadnt, the Borg accomplish their assimilation of past / alternate Earth. Either way it would be a win for the Borg. However, this all depends on if and maybe.

1) A Queen was sent this time despite the evidence that the Collective connection extends between the DQ and AQ as early as BOBW. It could suffer from lag issues thus the Queen was sent to keep them in line and / or alternatively, she was sent with the force because she needed to organised them when they arrived in past / alternate Earth where the collective connection wont exist at all.

2) A Cube was sent with a sphere inside with an ability the Borg have never been witnessed to use before. Either they built that technology specifically into that sphere and it consumed resources they cant duplicate or they Borg have the ability to do this but dont.

3) The Borg have demonstrated the ability to travel at speeds far greater than that of the Federation. They can sustain warp speeds far longer and their transwarp is unmatchable by the Federation which means the cube couldnt blitz the defenders or they could but choose not to.

This seems an appropriate summary of the three key points that come up in FC. The topic to my knowledge was going over 2), it is the other thread that was going over 3).

[MKSheppard]

Fuel range. The sphere craft is about on par with a large shuttle, with limited crew and resources. Certainly nowhere near sufficient to make it even to where the opening of the conduit is and/or the time transit burned up just about the craft's whole fuel reserve. They were stuck.

Um, Patrick. He's asking why the Borg didn't just jump the (undamaged) cube back in time before they're engaged by Starfleet Vessels; and then travel to Earth, and assimilate it.

Basically:

1.) Borg emerge in Federation Space.
2.) UFP Notices and Sends Fleet after it.
3.) 1 hour before the UFP fleet can engage the cube; the Borg Jump back in time to the 22nd Century.
4.) Borg then proceed to earth normally.
5.) Borg then Assimilate it.

[DaveJB]

When have we ever seen a cube jump through time? The only craft ever seen travelling through time with Borg technology are the sphere in First Contact and the future Janeway's shuttle in Endgame.

[MKSheppard]

When have we ever seen a cube jump through time? The only craft ever seen travelling through time with Borg technology are the sphere in First Contact and the future Janeway's shuttle in Endgame.

Why would a ESCAPE shuttle have time travel device, and not the big bad cube?

[Terralthra]

When have we ever seen a cube jump through time? The only craft ever seen travelling through time with Borg technology are the sphere in First Contact and the future Janeway's shuttle in Endgame.

Why would a ESCAPE shuttle have time travel device, and not the big bad cube?

Energy constraints? Time-travel as 'alternate dimension' problem?

[MKSheppard]

Energy constraints?

The Big Bad Cube has a bigger reactor than the escape vessel anyway.

[Terralthra]

Energy constraints?

The Big Bad Cube has a bigger reactor than the escape vessel anyway.

There is absolutely no evidence showing that reactor size scales at the same rate as needed energy for a time jump. Interestingly, in modern ST, the ships that make time jumps are consistently small. Admiral Janeway's shuttle, the 29th century timeship, the Borg sphere...

[Big Phil]

Why are so many people trying to explain away Borg idiocy as an advantage? They take their sweet time returning to try and assimilate Earth, and when they do they mosey their way through Federation territory like they're on a Sunday drive. Then, once they get their ass kicked they launch an escape shuttle that has a magical time travel device and use it to travel back in time to assimilate the Earth. Only the two subsequent Star Trek movies have a more idiotic and contrived plot.

Speed: If the Borg have transwarp that allows them to cross the galaxy in days or weeks, and they don't use it, but for whatever reason take seven years to get to Earth, they're fucking morons. It seems more reasonable to assume they cannot, in fact, cross the galaxy in weeks (although it's clear that the Borg are fucking morons). If they do in fact have super-fast burst speeds, why not use them once they reach the Federation border? They could bypass all defensive fleets and reach earth faster than the Federation could respond.

Time Travel: If they can travel through time, then fighting their way across Federation territory before doing so is fucking stupid. Of course this is the Borg, but why can't we all just accept the stupidity of this plot device?

[Patrick Degan]

Fuel range. The sphere craft is about on par with a large shuttle, with limited crew and resources. Certainly nowhere near sufficient to make it even to where the opening of the conduit is and/or the time transit burned up just about the craft's whole fuel reserve. They were stuck.

Um, Patrick. He's asking why the Borg didn't just jump the (undamaged) cube back in time before they're engaged by Starfleet Vessels; and then travel to Earth, and assimilate it.

And if you'd read the OP, you'd have seen that the time-jump system was installed on the spherecraft, not the cube.

[MKSheppard]

And if you'd read the OP, you'd have seen that the time-jump system was installed on the spherecraft, not the cube.

Which as I've said makes no sense.

There is absolutely no evidence showing that reactor size scales at the same rate as needed energy for a time jump.

Reactors of the scale on trek probably scale up the same way fission reactors do; the real mass in a reactor is shielding; and a M/AM reaction puts out a lot of energetic radiation while it's operating, and this must be shielded against. Shielding is fairly heavy and scales best at big sizes.

[wjs7744]

Reactors of the scale on trek probably scale up the same way fission reactors do; the real mass in a reactor is shielding; and a M/AM reaction puts out a lot of energetic radiation while it's operating, and this must be shielded against. Shielding is fairly heavy and scales best at big sizes.

Yes, but the power requirements of the time-drive may scale even faster than the reactor size/power ratio.

My favourite explanation was always Mike's parallel universe one, at least until Enterprise blew it out the water.

[DarthShady]

My favourite explanation was always Mike's parallel universe one, at least until Enterprise blew it out the water.

Mine too.What do you mean, i didn't watch much of enterprise?

[wjs7744]

Well, in Enterprise the 'Temporal Agents' are responsible for preventing changes to the timeline, which kind of implies that there is only one timeline rather than a new one being spawned whenever anyone does the whole time travel thing. I think that there was something similar in a Voyager episode, but Enterprise was when it became a major plot point.

[Terralthra]

There is absolutely no evidence showing that reactor size scales at the same rate as needed energy for a time jump.

Reactors of the scale on trek probably scale up the same way fission reactors do; the real mass in a reactor is shielding; and a M/AM reaction puts out a lot of energetic radiation while it's operating, and this must be shielded against. Shielding is fairly heavy and scales best at big sizes.

That's nice, but it doesn't actually answer my point. Care to try again?

[Baal]

Maybe the Borg have some technology that allows them to shield their ships from notice when time traveling. Call it a temporal cloak. This allows them to time travel without various future Time Agencies noticing and intervening.

This technology could only work on ships Sphere size or smaller due to energy requirements.

Then when the Borg arrive in the past they are severly limited in what they can do energy output wise or they may exceed the cloaking power of their temporal cloak. So they are limited to their really pathetic little shots from the sphere.

Finally it wouldnt be a surprise if temporal agencies intentionally look for Borg signatures time traveling so they fire really weak shots while beaming some Borg over the the E-E so that the Enterprise will destroy the Sphere before any time cops notice it is there.

Yes a whole lot of BS, but I am really bored here.

[Darth Onasi]

Why would they? As far as I saw, the cube was smashing the last little remains of the Federation fleet. Only Picard and his residual Borg connection allowed him to figure out exactly where to hit the cube, forcing it to self destruct. Which frankly was nothing more than another Federation copout of 'attack this non critical area here and and we win!'.

Um.. what movie were you watching then?
The Federation fleet was taking a pounding, but so was the cube. They were carving chunks out of the cube by the time Picard arrived; they just lacked co-ordination due to the fleet leader's being shot down.
I've heard this "Picard attacked the weak-spot" argument many times and I don't buy it. They weren't exploiting a weak spot. They were digging a big crater into the thing.

And how do you know the cube self-destructed? It looked to me it blew up due to being overwhelmed by the Federation fleet.

Given the Fed fleet seemed decimated and on the verge of defeat, time to recooperate seemed right around the corner.

Funny, I saw several ships still fit and battle capable by the time Picard arrived.
What kind of idiot would gamble on the enemy running out of firepower before they do when they can just outrun them anyway?

Especially since such vessels have vastly more room for fuel, and furthermore Borg ships are just 'empty cardboard boxes".

Given that cubes contain many drones, space for captured ships, space for spheres, and large cavernous spaces that don't seem to be for storage this is a silly assumption.

[Jark]

Um.. what movie were you watching then?
The Federation fleet was taking a pounding, but so was the cube. They were carving chunks out of the cube by the time Picard arrived; they just lacked co-ordination due to the fleet leader's being shot down.
I've heard this "Picard attacked the weak-spot" argument many times and I don't buy it. They weren't exploiting a weak spot. They were digging a big crater into the thing.

You're saying you didn't find anything odd about Picard hearing the Borg Collective talking in his mind, jumping out of his seat, ordering the fleet to target an apparent non critical area - which was pointed out to him by Data, and the cube being destroyed by targetting that area?

I thought it was obvious he had heard something about a vulnerability and was acting on that information.

Given that cubes contain many drones, space for captured ships, space for spheres, and large cavernous spaces that don't seem to be for storage this is a silly assumption.

Do the Borg keep space to capture enemy ships? The only time I remember something like that was the episode with the Borg children who were capturing shuttle sized vessels and storing them in their cube.