St5 - So human....

[Baal]

In the crap that is ST5 we have Sybock with his magic brainwashing power.

HE uses it on Spock by showing him his birth. In the scene Spocks father is heard to say with a hint of sadness "so human..."

We dont know for sure but it can be guessed that he is disapointed in the half human Spock that is crying at birth unlike a pure Vulcan baby that would be silent for some reason.

Yet this would be all bullshit if that is the point. If anything a Vulcan baby would be screaming twice as loud as Spock was crying. Vulcans are not born with the ability to supress their emotions. It is a learned behavior. In fact we are beat over the head many times with the fact that not only are Vulcans smarter, stronger, faster, etc etc, they even have stronger emotions than a human does. The great Picard can barely contain himself when infected with Sareks emotions.


So what is Sarek talking about? Disapointed that a child he chose to father is born half-human? Are Vulcans, even ones as great as Sarek and who prefer human wives as racist and bigoted as this would suggest?

Or are we just being beaten down in this scene with incredibly horrible writing that is suggesting that a vulcan newborn would be born with perfect emotional control and would not cry at birth.

[Old Plympto]

The scene could be construed as a made up fictional telepathic projection from Sybok intended to (what he felt might) break Spock.

[NecronLord]

Yeah. There's no way that should be Spock's memory. It's Sybok's Psyops, all of this and nothing more.

[Baal]

The scene could be construed as a made up fictional telepathic projection from Sybok intended to (what he felt might) break Spock.

Doesnt really matter though. Spock never calls bullshit on it. He appears mildly amused by it and Sybock being as smart as he is wouldnt project something at least fairly realistic and comparable to the birth of Spock.


BTW, What the fuck is with the cave bit? Do they not have hospitals on Vulcan where one can safely have a pregnancy and save the life of baby and mother if somethign happens? Assuming I am remembering it right the birth itself could have come out of "Clan of the Cave Bears".

[NecronLord]

Doesnt really matter though. Spock never calls bullshit on it.

Yes he does. He doesn't join Sybock.

BTW, What the fuck is with the cave bit? Do they not have hospitals on Vulcan where one can safely have a pregnancy and save the life of baby and mother if somethign happens?

*Communicator-Chirp* "Ambassador Sarek to Vulcan Medical Institute Twelve. Two to beam to pregnancy crash room."

[Baal]

Doesnt really matter though. Spock never calls bullshit on it.

Yes he does. He doesn't join Sybock.

BTW, What the fuck is with the cave bit? Do they not have hospitals on Vulcan where one can safely have a pregnancy and save the life of baby and mother if somethign happens?

*Communicator-Chirp* "Ambassador Sarek to Vulcan Medical Institute Twelve. Two to beam to pregnancy crash room."

First off not joining Sybock is different than calling bullshit on his little illusion. It just means the effect didnt work on Spock. It doesnt mean the scene isnt accurate.

Second, even years later when Spock is an adult it is considered unsafe for two people to be transported in one beam. Your statement assumes that trouble would only happen after birth was completely done. Otherwise you are hoping that the transporters dont screw up trying to figure out if a woman halfway through giving birth is one or two lifeforms.

Also the good old clan of the cave bears home cannot be the most clean environment for a newborn.

[Junghalli]

I interpreted it as Spock looking more human than Vulcan when he was born*, the "Vulcan babies don't cry" possibility never occurred to me until now. I figured it was sort like if the situation were reversed and the human dad got a little creeped out by the pointed ears.

*Of course, one wonders what a Vulcan baby is supposed to look like then. Maybe it was just all the red stuff on him; it'd be sort of like how we might react to a baby coming out covered in black goo.

As for the "Clan of the Cave Bears" thing, I think it might have been the Trek "aliens are supposed to have a vaguely luddite picturesque 'traditional' culture" brainbug starting to grow. For an in-universe explanation, Vulcan mating-associated customs seems steeped in ancient holdover Midaevalism, maybe this is an extension of that.

[Knife]

It could be more a comment about regret than an actual observation.

[BountyHunterSAx]

Otherwise you are hoping that the transporters dont screw up trying to figure out if a woman halfway through giving birth is one or two lifeforms.

Though given the way TNG wanked the transporter, if it ever came down to that, I'm sure the transport beam would not only work the two signals out, but actually beam the newly delivered baby out for kicks.

-AHMAD

[NecronLord]

Second, even years later when Spock is an adult it is considered unsafe for two people to be transported in one beam.

Horsecrap. They've been beaming entire teams up and down over and over throughout the series. By the time of the movies, they can transport four hundred tonnes including two whales in one operation.

Your statement assumes that trouble would only happen after birth was completely

Or Y'know, that they had a Doctor on hand to tell if anything was going wrong? If anything, it would take less time to get to survery using this mechanism than it would by wheeling her along a corridor on a gurney.

done. Otherwise you are hoping that the transporters dont screw up trying to figure out if a woman halfway through giving birth is one or two lifeforms.

They seemed to have no problem transporting a pregnant member of an extinct species (Gracie) why should they have difficulty with Vulcans and humans?

Yes, it's probably not the best enviroment, but then, fighting to the death over mating rights is not the best way for a sapient species to determine its affairs of the heart, but the Vulcans still do it.

And this is assuming there isn't some magic involved - as we know, the Vulcans have magical abilities, which they preform in these places; Spock was able to sense Vejur (though the sheer scale of Vejur's intellect doubtless helped) from many hundreds of light years, while preforming Kolinar, the ritual of Fal-tor-pan also worked well, but carried a great amount of ritual. I would be unsurprised if the primative cave thing was also some strange Vulcan ritual.

Additionally, from the scene where Spock is re-training his mind in Star Trek IV, it appears that Vulcan dwellings are also caves; it may be that the entire world is like that, and that this is how Vulcans are most comfortable living.

[Darth Wong]

HE uses it on Spock by showing him his birth. In the scene Spocks father is heard to say with a hint of sadness "so human..."

We dont know for sure but it can be guessed that he is disapointed in the half human Spock that is crying at birth unlike a pure Vulcan baby that would be silent for some reason.

Either that, or there's something about Vulcan penises that we have not been told.

[DaveJB]

No wonder T'Pring was so quick to dump Spock and go with that other guy!

[Baal]

HE uses it on Spock by showing him his birth. In the scene Spocks father is heard to say with a hint of sadness "so human..."

We dont know for sure but it can be guessed that he is disapointed in the half human Spock that is crying at birth unlike a pure Vulcan baby that would be silent for some reason.

Either that, or there's something about Vulcan penises that we have not been told.

So Sarek may not have been saying that with regret but actually with jealousy.

[Baal]

Couple points


First off Spock was obviously born WAY before STNG so talking about how wanked transporters get by that point means nothing. Those are not the transporters we are talking about.

Second and I know I am quoting the novelizations but in the ST3 novel David and Saavik beam up to the science ship while holding hands (they are both drunk from the mutated plants) and are told by the Captain that they are both lucky to have not lost arms. In ST4 when the chick jumps into Kirks arms right before he beams up he comments to her when they reform that she has no idea how dangerous what she just did was.

Then there is the scene from The Motion Picture where a completely normal transport of a single person still screws up and kills the person.

Assuming that the transporter technology didnt go backwards from TOS to Spocks birth one can reasonably assume that there would be even more danger with the earlier systems that would have been around then.

[Uraniun235]

The ST3 novelization can be safely ignored.

ST4 can be explained by the transporter having to suddenly deal with an unexpected change in payload, whereas with Spock's birth the transporter would already be taking Spock and Amanda into consideration.

In TMP they had been having problems with the transporter beforehand thanks to the ship being rushed out of drydock.

[Skylon]

Isn't this just a general issue that existed throughout the series between Spock and Sarek. Spock said "I have no pain" and Sybok called bullshit on it, knowing damn well the sour relations between Spock and his dad. If it was true or not, perhaps Spock felt the reason he and his dad never got along was due to his half-breed status.

[Isolder74]

Isn't this just a general issue that existed throughout the series between Spock and Sarek. Spock said "I have no pain" and Sybok called bullshit on it, knowing damn well the sour relations between Spock and his dad. If it was true or not, perhaps Spock felt the reason he and his dad never got along was due to his half-breed status.

Yet afterwards, Spock says to Sybok, "I am not the child you left on Vulcan." Seems to me that he did call 'bullshit' on Sybok but in a Vulcan way.

[Patrick Degan]

Isn't this just a general issue that existed throughout the series between Spock and Sarek. Spock said "I have no pain" and Sybok called bullshit on it, knowing damn well the sour relations between Spock and his dad. If it was true or not, perhaps Spock felt the reason he and his dad never got along was due to his half-breed status.

Yet afterwards, Spock says to Sybok, "I am not the child you left on Vulcan." Seems to me that he did call 'bullshit' on Sybok but in a Vulcan way.

Sybok, you are my brother but you do not know me. I am not the outcast boy you left behind on Vulcan all those years ago. Since that time, I have found myself and my place in the Universe and it is here, with my shipmates. I cannot go with you.

[Broomstick]

Let's see, possible reasons for Sarek's comment (other than it being a total fabrication of Sybok's):

- Baby Spock is covered in red, Human blood rather than green Vulcan blood. Baby humans in red oogy can creep out humans expecting it, I'd imagine having a baby in green oogy could be even creepier. Reverse color situation for Vulcans.
- Maybe baby Vulcans DO cry, scream, and writhe more vigorously than Humans... in which case Sarek lamenting the weak cries of baby Spock.
- Maybe baby Vulcans ARE more composed at birth, and Sarak is lamenting how much fuss baby Spock is making.
- Maybe Sarek is thinking about how hard his half-n-half son is going to have it growing up on Vulcan.
- Maybe without clothes on Vulcans and Humans look more different than we think, and Spock looks more Human when nekkid.

As for the cave thing... you know, there are these things called "birthing centers" where the rooms are set up to look like hotel rooms or rather homelike, but can be converted instantly into an OR for emergency procedures (the equipment is disguised behind cabinets and in closets). Perhaps, given the Vulcan fondness for ancient traditions, they prefer cave-like rooms in which to give birth but such places have hidden medical equipment at hand.

[Darth Wong]

David was born in my bedroom upstairs, with the assistance of a midwife. Not everyone is born in a high-tech facility, although we made sure that we were registered with a nearby hospital in case we needed it.

The primitive-looking birthing environment is no big deal. There's probably some goofball tradition involved.

[NecronLord]

First off Spock was obviously born WAY before STNG so talking about how wanked transporters get by that point means nothing. Those are not the transporters we are talking about.

Nor have I mentioned those. You don't need site to site (though that is in the TOS movies - 400 tonnes site to site, no less. By far the most impressive feat we've seen regular transporters pull off, and it's being operated and maintained by a man from an entirely different species to the one that built the relevant transporter - Klingon transporters may just be superior) to run a hospital with a transporter. You just physically put the transporters into A&E and/or surgery rooms.

Second and I know I am quoting the novelizations but in the ST3 novel David and Saavik beam up to the science ship while holding hands (they are both drunk from the mutated plants) and are told by the Captain that they are both lucky to have not lost arms.

Oh look. A novel. The only one that's possibly worth considering in the canon is the TMP one, and then only because it was actually written by Roddenberry. Much as I don't actually mind Vonda McIntyre, she was in no way involved with the production.

In ST4 when the chick jumps into Kirks arms right before he beams up he comments to her when they reform that she has no idea how dangerous what she just did was.

What he actually says is "Mr Spock, where the hell is the power you promised me."

Then there is the scene from The Motion Picture where a completely normal transport of a single person still screws up and kills the person.

There's two of them. And it screws up because the transporter is on the fritz - because its repair has been rushed.

Assuming that the transporter technology didnt go backwards from TOS to Spocks birth one can reasonably assume that there would be even more danger with the earlier systems that would have been around then.

Mmmhumm. Why, if someone incompetantly repairs the transporter, you might die. A bit like, say, an ambulance. I'm not seeing why this is a pressing case for avoiding using them for delivering people to hospitals in case of emergencies.

[Drooling Iguana]

Wasn't Sybok pulling the birth scene out of Spock's mind? How do we know it was accurate at all, rather than just being built out of the few pieces of information Spock had been able to get his parents to tell him about that event filtered through his own assumptions and insecurities?