Data vs Odo

vivftp · Post by **vivftp** » 2006-02-02 01:58am

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Odo linked with Laz, so he knows how to become a vapor and fire, both of which would be forms a barehanded odo couldn't hurt. Heck, Odo could get INSIDE Data.

lol, I was just about to suggest that. Get inside Data, change shape and tear him apart from the inside.

On the subject of Odo in his liquid form, he can still take hits in that form. In the DS9 episode Heart of Stone he became sort of a liquid-like canopy to protect Kira from falling rocks - here's a video of that:

http://www.filegone.com/yc1e

Obviously Data would be able to put more force into any attacks than those falling rocks, but at least this sets the precident that Odo can still be solid even in his natural form.

DoctorPhanan · Post by **DoctorPhanan** » 2006-02-03 08:35am

skotos wrote:[As for the original question, do we even know what would cause either Data or Odo to submit? Without knowing this (or without additional victory conditions) the question is unanswerable.

Good point, how about changing the victory condition to incapacitation, since that seems to be the general consensus for victory right now. I'm also assuming that death would result in a victory, but I assumed that moral issues involved would make such a situation overly complicated.

As far as the linking with Laz (Who I assume is the other changeling that was separated from the great link) AFAIK Odo never exhibited the ability to transform to any of those forms following his contact with Laz.

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2006-02-03 10:01am

Its been a while since I saw the episode but I recall it being more than just electrocution

More like hard radiation. He died in humanoid form, so he was covered with burns. He was strong enough to whisper one phrase to Odo, then broke down into some sort of ash.

I would hazard a guess that flamethrowers, high-explosives, biological agents, and any other area enveloping weapon would be suitable to actually kill the entire mass in one go.

We can be pretty sure of this. Intense phaser fire causes Changelings to explode violently, and all the little pieces stay dead.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-02-03 10:16am

Anguirus wrote:More like hard radiation.

If the warp core leaks lethal levels of hard radiation, how do humans stand there and work the controls?

vivftp · Post by **vivftp** » 2006-02-03 11:36am

Darth Wong wrote:If the warp core leaks lethal levels of hard radiation, how do humans stand there and work the controls?

In that instance, the protective shielding around the Defiants warp core was down (O'Brian had to overload all the force fields on the ship to regain control of some systems). There was also some sabotage from the changling occuring, I can't recall if any of that might have affected the warp core. I'll check when I get home.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-02-03 12:55pm

OK, so why was Odo safe when he was only a few feet away? How can the radiation be so swiftly lethal to the other changeling and totally harmless just a couple of feet away?

vivftp · Post by **vivftp** » 2006-02-03 03:11pm

Darth Wong wrote:OK, so why was Odo safe when he was only a few feet away? How can the radiation be so swiftly lethal to the other changeling and totally harmless just a couple of feet away?

Going by memory on the scene until I get home, but I don't think it was radiation per se. Odo and the changling were grappling with each other, Odo tossed the changling up against the unshielded warp core and the changling was electrocuted. I don't recall any mention of radiation in that scene - O'Brian mentioned that once the warp cores shield went down things were going to heat up quickly in there. That's about all I recall.

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2006-02-03 05:50pm

OK, so why was Odo safe when he was only a few feet away? How can the radiation be so swiftly lethal to the other changeling and totally harmless just a couple of feet away?

Shitty writing?

Going by memory on the scene until I get home, but I don't think it was radiation per se. Odo and the changling were grappling with each other, Odo tossed the changling up against the unshielded warp core and the changling was electrocuted. I don't recall any mention of radiation in that scene - O'Brian mentioned that once the warp cores shield went down things were going to heat up quickly in there.

It's been quite awhile since I've seen that ep, but it looked like the guy just got utterly fried. I'm not holding to the radiation thing since it's been so long, but I may have assumed this because the only other engine room casualty I know of that wasn't caused by actual battle damage or exploding consoles was Spock's death in STIII...from radiation poisoning.

vivftp · Post by **vivftp** » 2006-02-03 07:07pm

Ok, watching the episode. When O'Brian was planning to try and override the sabotage he said:

O'BRIEN
How about this... I think I may be
able to shut down the changeling's
forcefields and gain access to the
sabotaged systems. The only problem
is, there's a chance we'll lose our
own forcefields, too.
.........
O'BRIEN
All right, we're almost there. Look,
when we set off this device there's
a possibility we'll lose the
protective field around the warp
core. If that happens, this room's
going to heat up real fast. So give
the warp core a wide berth or you'll
get a dose of radiation poisoning
that even Bashir can't cure.

So yep, with this protective field offline the warp core there was radiation danger if you got too close. This, however, isn't exactly what occured to the changling. Here's a small video I just put together. The first little part shows when the field around the warp core was shut down. The second part is the changling itself getting fried.

http://www.filegone.com/j655

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2006-02-04 01:08am

Well, at least my memory isn't totally off!

And how reassuring that there actually is a limit to the amount of radiation poisoning one can be "inoculated" against in the 24th century...

The Silence and I · Post by **The Silence and I** » 2006-02-04 10:45am

Well of course there's a limit

Enough hard radiation to outright fry and cook you is too much for them to hadle. What the threshold is they don't say

Metrion Cascade · Post by **Metrion Cascade** » 2006-02-08 10:48am

IIRC, the warp core had [and as a matter of normal operation has] a forcefield around it. It would of course be pure idiocy for that forcefield to be lethally powerful at all times, but maybe O'Brien had something to do with that.

As for the contest, Odo's physiology is self-contradictory. He's been knocked out by having a rock fall on his head, in the episode where a Gamma Quadrant resident showed him an organic 'key' that worked by morphing into a certain shape. This to convince Odo that he knew other changelings.

DoctorPhanan · Post by **DoctorPhanan** » 2006-02-08 12:04pm

O'Brien did indeed have something to do with the warp core losing it's forcefeild. Since the changling activated forcefeilds around the clusters of circuitry that were taking over the ship, O'Brien built some technobabble device that deactivated all the forcefields on the ship, including the one that surrounds the warpcore.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-02-08 05:18pm

DoctorPhanan wrote:O'Brien did indeed have something to do with the warp core losing it's forcefeild. Since the changling activated forcefeilds around the clusters of circuitry that were taking over the ship, O'Brien built some technobabble device that deactivated all the forcefields on the ship, including the one that surrounds the warpcore.

That still doesn't explain why people were safe just a few feet away when the changeling fried.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2006-02-08 05:23pm

I don't see how being liquid would protect Odo from damage. You can easily damage complex liquids. Ever make whipped cream?

The Silence and I · Post by **The Silence and I** » 2006-02-09 12:21am

Well if we know anything about startrek radiation it is that they don't mean alpha, beta and x-ray/gamma-ray radiation. Given the absolutely fantastic properties of some of the stuff they call radiation I'd not be surprised if this particular radiation drops off according to 1/d^4 or even more steeply. This is of course only possible with extra dimensions, but subspace can easily (considering it does everything and anything needed of it--it even makes fries) account for that.

Alternatively, it was composed of some freaky particle that decays after travelling a couple of meters, and is somehow lethal without requiring energy levels that would still cook O'Brian after it decayed into EM.

Or something else entirely; the point is that the word 'radiation' in startrek usually means nothing of the kind.

Eframepilot · Post by **Eframepilot** » 2006-02-14 01:57am

The Changeling was killed by a direct, visible discharge caused by being actually placed into contact with the warp core, so all the talk about radiation is moot. The discharge looked to be electrical in nature, but we must remember that another Changeling withstood a dozen Klingon disruptor shots before succumbing - that discharge was almost certainly far more powerful than anything Data's own systems could generate. Also, Odo was still connected to the Changeling by merged wrists and yet suffered no significant harm, so the discharge was probably not electrical in anything but appearance.

On the other hand, the Mirrorverse Odo was killed by a single Bajoran phaser shot, so Odo's resistance to energy discharges is likely not as strong as other Changelings due to his relative youth and inexperience.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2006-02-14 09:21am

The Silence and I wrote:Well if we know anything about startrek radiation it is that they don't mean alpha, beta and x-ray/gamma-ray radiation. Given the absolutely fantastic properties of some of the stuff they call radiation I'd not be surprised if this particular radiation drops off according to 1/d^4 or even more steeply. This is of course only possible with extra dimensions, but subspace can easily (considering it does everything and anything needed of it--it even makes fries) account for that.

The problem is that the whole Inverse Square Law isn't a matter of the kind of radiation, it's a matter of geometry. As far as I know, geometry doesn't care what's radiating, be it gravity, electrical fields, radiation, or cheese.

Alternatively, it was composed of some freaky particle that decays after travelling a couple of meters, and is somehow lethal without requiring energy levels that would still cook O'Brian after it decayed into EM.

Or something else entirely; the point is that the word 'radiation' in startrek usually means nothing of the kind.

So, what, the energy carried by the particle at that flux is lethal, but the energy of the resultant EM energy won't even burn you?

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2006-02-15 08:03am

On the other hand, the Mirrorverse Odo was killed by a single Bajoran phaser shot, so Odo's resistance to energy discharges is likely not as strong as other Changelings due to his relative youth and inexperience.

Or the phaser was just on a higher setting than the disruptors.

Enola Straight · Post by **Enola Straight** » 2006-02-15 11:29am

The Silence and I wrote: Data can lift close to a ton of rock at bare minimum and bends very thick metals on occasion. His durability to blunt trauma is proportional to his strength as far as we have been told and have seen. What kind of physical feats has Odo performed? I think other changlings are exempt from this since Odo is less capable than his kin?

.

Odo was trapped on a free-falling turbolift with Kira and the First Minister.

To stop the free-fall, Odo morphed his arms into hydraulic pistons and essentially put the brakes on in the shaft.
Extrapolate the weight of a turbolift car with three humanoids, plus the tensile strength of the car's alloy construction the pistons had to push through.

The Silence and I · Post by **The Silence and I** » 2006-02-15 11:30pm

Enola Straight wrote:Odo was trapped on a free-falling turbolift with Kira and the First Minister.

To stop the free-fall, Odo morphed his arms into hydraulic pistons and essentially put the brakes on in the shaft.
Extrapolate the weight of a turbolift car with three humanoids, plus the tensile strength of the car's alloy construction the pistons had to push through.

A) Why do you want me to do this?
B) From your description it cannot be calculated; we don't know the strength of the turbolift's walls, we do not know the mass of the car + passengers, we do not know the speed of the car, and last but not least we don't know the coefficient of friction between the car and the shaft.

****************

Gil Hamilton wrote:The problem is that the whole Inverse Square Law isn't a matter of the kind of radiation, it's a matter of geometry. As far as I know, geometry doesn't care what's radiating, be it gravity, electrical fields, radiation, or cheese.

I'm no expert, but I believe what I proposed is possible in the freaky physics of startrek: if the radiation can propegate through the various dimensions of subspace as well as those of real space, then it is effectively travelling through more than 3 geometric dimensions, and the fall off rate exceeds the 1/d^2 of 3D space.

So, what, the energy carried by the particle at that flux is lethal, but the energy of the resultant EM energy won't even burn you?

Exactly what I mean. Hey, stranger things have happened (radiation that turns you to dust without so much as warming the room, radiation that repairs genetic structures indefinately, radiation that does whatever the plot needs it too... is my point clear?)