Mass Stunning a Planet? Possible?

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Tommy J
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Mass Stunning a Planet? Possible?

Post by Tommy J »

[this IS NOT A vs. DEBATE it's about SF Tech]

I hadn't looked at Dark Star's website in a while when I came across the below. Is the below accurate? If they could 'STUN' a large section of a Planet then why the hell wasn't this method used virtually every time they encountered a hostile species? Stun half the planet [if this is correct] and mass transport enemy combatants.

[and please don't give me a technobabble answer of special shielding, wrong environment blah, blah, blah because we never heard of such a thing in dialog]



Dark Star Wrote
In an era of starships capable of firing on ground targets with pinpoint accuracy, sending combat troops to die on enemy fields might seem wasteful. This is even more true when you consider that, even in the 2260's, the weapons of a Federation starship could be set for a large-scale stun effect on the surface below ("A Piece of the Action"[TOS2]). One can just imagine a grand army of soldiers on a vast plain ready to meet any foe . . . except for the wide beam of light that comes down from the sky and sends them all into blissful slumber. (Granted, the Federation is not in the business of pacifying hostile populations, unlike the Empire (which pacifies its own).)

Nevertheless, there are times when ground combat is required . . . one doesn't always have a starship at one's disposal, and there are things even a starship cannot do. Thus, although we haven't seen much of it in the starship-centric canon, we've seen enough ground combat in Trek to get the gist of the Federation's techniques and technologies. While we're at it, we'll also take a look at the Federation's neighbors and adversaries to see what's common in regimes which enjoy a rough technological parity with the Federation.
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Post by Tommy J »

Destructionator XIII wrote:In "A Piece of the Action" they only stunned people inside a few city blocks, and people inside buildings were unaffected. I think Darkstar went no-limits fallacy here.
Agreed, it wouldn't make sense that people in buildings would be affected nor would they have unlimited ability. However, it seems strange they never employed that technique again in the multiple number of instances that they could have disabled a hostile force on a planets surface. [those outside that is]

In any case, this is yet another example of the 1 Episode Plot Device military strategy never to be used, seen or heard of again. If our military was ST world, military leaders would have some how forgotten that flanking an enemy was an effective strategy. :roll:
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Post by Robert Walper »

Destructionator XIII wrote:In "A Piece of the Action" they only stunned people inside a few city blocks, and people inside buildings were unaffected. I think Darkstar went no-limits fallacy here.
*sigh* Notice his example:
One can just imagine a grand army of soldiers on a vast plain ready to meet any foe
While criticism of Dark Star is warranted on this board, an effort should be made to keep it accurate. At no point does he suggest the stun effect renders any shielded foe helpless. He has only pointed out that field combat would be rendered virtually useless if a orbiting starship with orbital bombardment capabilities is available.
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Post by Robert Walper »

Tommy J wrote:
Destructionator XIII wrote:In "A Piece of the Action" they only stunned people inside a few city blocks, and people inside buildings were unaffected. I think Darkstar went no-limits fallacy here.
Agreed, it wouldn't make sense that people in buildings would be affected nor would they have unlimited ability. However, it seems strange they never employed that technique again in the multiple number of instances that they could have disabled a hostile force on a planets surface. [those outside that is]
Did those numerous instances you mention have a starship available for this method of attack, as well as the starship not being distracted by other more important targets, like an enemy ship?
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Post by Tommy J »

Robert Walper wrote:Did those numerous instances you mention have a starship available for this method of attack, as well as the starship not being distracted by other more important targets, like an enemy ship?
Good question. I don't have inclination to go back Episode by Episode through 4 separate series, suffice to say however you'd have to agree that we saw this method used once and forgotten about which I find strange. Don't you?
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Post by Tommy J »

Edit:

Confused myself. I guess a whole thread could be about forgotten strategies and tactics and tech.
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Post by General Zod »

Robert Walper wrote:
While criticism of Dark Star is warranted on this board, an effort should be made to keep it accurate. At no point does he suggest the stun effect renders any shielded foe helpless. He has only pointed out that field combat would be rendered virtually useless if a orbiting starship with orbital bombardment capabilities is available.
which is probably why almost all the mass combat scenes we see in star trek is starship vs starship, or underground.
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Post by Robert Walper »

Destructionator XIII wrote:But if said people on this plain were wearing any kind of decent armour, the wide beaf effect would be rendered useless. The roofs of the buildings stopped the effect. We know focused phasers don't work well against armoured foes, so a wide beam wouldn't either (because its energy is even more spread out). Also, in A Peice of the Action, the stunned people didn't stay down for very long.
Federation hand phasers may have trouble dealing with armored enemy soldiers, but I suspect starship mounted phasers (magnitudes more powerful) would have a much better chance of inflicting damage, particularily if the targetted troop's health is not of concern.
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Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

Yes, of course you assume...
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Post by Robert Walper »

Tommy J wrote:
Robert Walper wrote:Did those numerous instances you mention have a starship available for this method of attack, as well as the starship not being distracted by other more important targets, like an enemy ship?
Good question. I don't have inclination to go back Episode by Episode through 4 separate series, suffice to say however you'd have to agree that we saw this method used once and forgotten about which I find strange. Don't you?
Depends upon which specific examples incited you to create this thread. Apply the same questioning for said examples.
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Post by Robert Walper »

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Yes, of course you assume...
Are you suggesting starship mounted phaser weapons would be rendered ineffective against exposed soldiers wearing armor?
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Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

No.
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Post by Tommy J »

Robert Walper wrote:
Tommy J wrote:
Robert Walper wrote:Did those numerous instances you mention have a starship available for this method of attack, as well as the starship not being distracted by other more important targets, like an enemy ship?
Good question. I don't have inclination to go back Episode by Episode through 4 separate series, suffice to say however you'd have to agree that we saw this method used once and forgotten about which I find strange. Don't you?
Depends upon which specific examples incited you to create this thread. Apply the same questioning for said examples.
In the Cartaker Part II as an example Janeway and the landing party are taken hostage by the Kazen in plain open site in the desert. There are no other ships in orbit except Voyager. Why wouldn't Voyager 'mass stun' the location they were being held hostage since no-one was indoors?
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Re: Mass Stunning a Planet? Possible?

Post by Steven Snyder »

DarkStar wrote: One can just imagine a grand army of soldiers on a vast plain ready to meet any foe . . . except for the wide beam of light that comes down from the sky and sends them all into blissful slumber.
Wouldn't of of their 64MT Photon Torpedoes do about the same thing, except maybe extend the amount of time they are 'stunned'?

Another point is something that the makers of the Taser product are running into. Enough energy to disable a tough person in the prime of their life may be enough to kill children, elderly, and the sick.
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Post by Darth Lucifer »

Tommy J wrote: If they could 'STUN' a large section of a Planet then why the hell wasn't this method used virtually every time they encountered a hostile species? Stun half the planet [if this is correct] and mass transport enemy combatants.
Why bother stunning them first? Fed Transporters have been shown to deactivate weapons. Hell, Ferengi transporters can beam you out of your clothes. :P :twisted:

Seriously, I don't know why. Maybe because Federation transporter tech is not 100% perfect, which has been pointed out to the Nth degree in other posts.

(Edited for grammar -M)
Last edited by Darth Lucifer on 2005-04-06 12:48am, edited 1 time in total.
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Stun THIS

Post by Nick Lancaster »

Robert Walper wrote: While criticism of Dark Star is warranted on this board, an effort should be made to keep it accurate. At no point does he suggest the stun effect renders any shielded foe helpless. He has only pointed out that field combat would be rendered virtually useless if a orbiting starship with orbital bombardment capabilities is available.
Fine. You stun them into unconsciousness. Your own ground forces, of course, are some distance away to avoid accidentally being caught in the targeted area.

Before your troops can get there, the opposing army wakes up.

Oh, but of course, our troops could beam in and be right there, seconds later. Uh-huh. And you're going to disarm/restrain an army 'ready to meet any foe' before a significant amount of them wake up?

It's still a fallacious argument, made more egregious by being situated in ideal conditions.
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

Robert Walper wrote:Federation hand phasers may have trouble dealing with armored enemy soldiers, but I suspect starship mounted phasers (magnitudes more powerful) would have a much better chance of inflicting damage, particularily if the targetted troop's health is not of concern.
Magnitudes more powerful, but also divded over an area magnitudes larger. Geometry is a bitch. Even a several magnitude more powerful phaser can become less powerful than a focused hand weapon on an individual target if you try and target a large area with it. Which is a person going to notice more? 1000 units of stunning power spread over a square centimeter or 1e9 units of stunning power spread over a square kilometer?
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Post by Stark »

An effective countermeasure would be to simply double the space between your soldiers - thus spreading the finite stun energy further.

Or, y'know, using APCs. 8)
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Post by brianeyci »

Quick shoot-off answer - (since I'm standing and don't have internet at home anymore so using a public computer)... no.

They can stun an area of roughly ten meters by ten meters as shown in the TOS episode with the gangsters. Anything more is just guesswork.

Kirk and Co. were standing inside a building and weren't affected by the stun at all. Any kind of shelter should stop the stun. Armor should stop the stun as shown in the DS9 episode with the helmeted men being immune to widebeam stun.

Sorry for no references this time, usually I have my episode guide on hand, but the episodes do exist.

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Post by TimothyC »

brianeyci wrote: Kirk and Co. were standing inside a building and weren't affected by the stun at all. Any kind of shelter should stop the stun.
It's been a while from the last time I saw A Peice of the Action, but didn't Kirk order the area around the building he was in targeted? That might effect any calcs as to stun ability of ships.
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Post by SirNitram »

MariusRoi wrote:
brianeyci wrote: Kirk and Co. were standing inside a building and weren't affected by the stun at all. Any kind of shelter should stop the stun.
It's been a while from the last time I saw A Peice of the Action, but didn't Kirk order the area around the building he was in targeted? That might effect any calcs as to stun ability of ships.
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Post by SirNitram »

brianeyci wrote:Quick shoot-off answer - (since I'm standing and don't have internet at home anymore so using a public computer)... no.

They can stun an area of roughly ten meters by ten meters as shown in the TOS episode with the gangsters. Anything more is just guesswork.

Kirk and Co. were standing inside a building and weren't affected by the stun at all. Any kind of shelter should stop the stun. Armor should stop the stun as shown in the DS9 episode with the helmeted men being immune to widebeam stun.

Sorry for no references this time, usually I have my episode guide on hand, but the episodes do exist.

Brian
You are completely correct; it's 'A Peice Of The Action'. There's no truly relevent dialogue for this; Kirk orders the setting for stun on the way down and we don't hear him order the firing as more than just 'Target here'.
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Post by Kartr_Kana »

I thought that only the TOS Enterprise was able to use its phasers to stun that capability was taken out ever since. Is this a falacius assumtion or is it correct?
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Post by Ra »

Hate to crash your party, but there is such a thing as "thread necromancy". If a thread has been gone for two weeks or more, let it die.
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Post by RedImperator »

Ra wrote:Hate to crash your party, but there is such a thing as "thread necromancy". If a thread has been gone for two weeks or more, let it die.
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Let the mods handle the moderating.

And this is necromancy. For future reference, Kartr, you can start a new thread to ask, for example, "Can TNG era starship phasers be set to stun?"
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