Could a torpedo deliver its full yield?
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Could a torpedo deliver its full yield?
I was just reading the "Federation Torpedoes" page, when I had a possibly stupid idea:
When a torpedo explodes, at least 50% of the energy released are directed away from the target.
Even the radiation heading directly away will "only" move at the speed of light.
Now, if the torpedo was moving FTL, and if its warp field takes a moment to collapse, the explosion will still be moving towards the target at FTL speed, so even the energy that would normally be wasted should hit it.
Anyone care to point out the flaws in that idea?
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When a torpedo explodes, at least 50% of the energy released are directed away from the target.
Even the radiation heading directly away will "only" move at the speed of light.
Now, if the torpedo was moving FTL, and if its warp field takes a moment to collapse, the explosion will still be moving towards the target at FTL speed, so even the energy that would normally be wasted should hit it.
Anyone care to point out the flaws in that idea?
Um, hi. New guy here. Hope I'm not making a too bad first impression...
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Re: Could a torpedo deliver its full yield?
Torpedoes can't move FTL. You know it's impossible to go at lightspeed in real space, right?AMX wrote:I was just reading the "Federation Torpedoes" page, when I had a possibly stupid idea:
When a torpedo explodes, at least 50% of the energy released are directed away from the target.
Even the radiation heading directly away will "only" move at the speed of light.
Now, if the torpedo was moving FTL, and if its warp field takes a moment to collapse, the explosion will still be moving towards the target at FTL speed, so even the energy that would normally be wasted should hit it.
Anyone care to point out the flaws in that idea?
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You would need something like a shaped charge to direct the blast, something I would imagine to be hard to design out of a M/AM bomb.
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Re: Could a torpedo deliver its full yield?
Actualy we have visual evidence that they can. TNG Half a Life.StarshipTitanic wrote:Torpedoes can't move FTL. You know it's impossible to go at lightspeed in real space, right?AMX wrote:I was just reading the "Federation Torpedoes" page, when I had a possibly stupid idea:
When a torpedo explodes, at least 50% of the energy released are directed away from the target.
Even the radiation heading directly away will "only" move at the speed of light.
Now, if the torpedo was moving FTL, and if its warp field takes a moment to collapse, the explosion will still be moving towards the target at FTL speed, so even the energy that would normally be wasted should hit it.
Anyone care to point out the flaws in that idea?
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Re: Could a torpedo deliver its full yield?
Just a nitpick, but that can't be right. Nothing can move at the speed of light in real space, period -- that pesky special relativity again. If it moves at the speed of light or faster, and it has mass, it's in some other medium. Clearly, a torpedo has mass, and if it has some means of going FTL, that's great, but it can't do it in real space.Alyeska wrote:Actualy we have visual evidence that they can. TNG Half a Life.StarshipTitanic wrote:Torpedoes can't move FTL. You know it's impossible to go at lightspeed in real space, right?AMX wrote:I was just reading the "Federation Torpedoes" page, when I had a possibly stupid idea:
When a torpedo explodes, at least 50% of the energy released are directed away from the target.
Even the radiation heading directly away will "only" move at the speed of light.
Now, if the torpedo was moving FTL, and if its warp field takes a moment to collapse, the explosion will still be moving towards the target at FTL speed, so even the energy that would normally be wasted should hit it.
Anyone care to point out the flaws in that idea?
Um, hi. New guy here. Hope I'm not making a too bad first impression...
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Re: Could a torpedo deliver its full yield?
Too bad Trek ship under Warp do it all the time.SCRawl wrote: Just a nitpick, but that can't be right. Nothing can move at the speed of light in real space, period -- that pesky special relativity again. If it moves at the speed of light or faster, and it has mass, it's in some other medium. Clearly, a torpedo has mass, and if it has some means of going FTL, that's great, but it can't do it in real space.
Trek ships fire torps at one another at Warp speed, therefore the torpedoes are able to maintain Warp speed, if not achieve it on their own. Therefore, torpedoes can very clearly move FTL.
Doesn't do beans about the delivered yield, though.
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Re: Could a torpedo deliver its full yield?
Actually, visual evidence from "Half A Life" clearly shows the torpedo as much less than the speed of light. THe FTL stuff comes from dialogue about the torpedo crossing a distance really quickly. However, the problem is that the distance given is highly suspect, because not only were they watching it on cameras in real time, but the effects of the nova were immediately visible and a dangerous threat to the Enterprise, indicating they were quite close to the star due to the lack of light lag.Alyeska wrote:Actualy we have visual evidence that they can. TNG Half a Life.
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Re: Could a torpedo deliver its full yield?
ST & SCR: realspace FTL is a part of Star Trek. Whether it's possible IRL or not is completely irrelevant to this thread.
Care to elaborate?Batman wrote:Doesn't do beans about the delivered yield, though.
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Re: Could a torpedo deliver its full yield?
the books aren't canon, however. thus not acceptable evidence. from everything that's been shown on screen the enterprise 'wraps' subspace around it permitting FTL, via the warp field.AMX wrote:ST & SCR: realspace FTL is a part of Star Trek. Whether it's possible IRL or not is completely irrelevant to this thread.
Care to elaborate?Batman wrote:Doesn't do beans about the delivered yield, though.
a torpedo going at warp or otherwise is still only going to deliver 50% of its power in terms of damage. due to the simple fact that half the spherical explosion will be going away from the target.
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Re: Could a torpedo deliver its full yield?
Yes, but at a speed not greater than the speed of light.Darth_Zod wrote:a torpedo going at warp or otherwise is still only going to deliver 50% of its power in terms of damage. due to the simple fact that half the spherical explosion will be going away from the target.
If the whole thing is moving FTL, the result is a movement towards the target (although only until the warp field finishes collapsing).
*tries to think of a useable analogy*
Say, you're throwing a stone out the back of a fast-moving car; maybe the stone is flying away from you at some twenty mph; but the car is moving more than a hundred mph in the other direction, so, to a not moving observer, the stone will be moving at about eighty mph in the same direction as the car.
Am I making myself unclear?
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Re: Could a torpedo deliver its full yield?
I think what AMX is getting at is while half the explosion is heading away from the target at c, until the final collapse of the warp field the entirety of the explosion is still moving towards the target at multiples of c.Darth_Zod wrote:a torpedo going at warp or otherwise is still only going to deliver 50% of its power in terms of damage. due to the simple fact that half the spherical explosion will be going away from the target.Care to elaborate?Batman wrote:Doesn't do beans about the delivered yield, though.
Problems:
1. The field will collapse the instant the explosion is triggered, what with the torpedo being disintegrated.
2. Even if it didn't, the energy would slow to c the moment it left the warp field of the torpedo (which I doubt is more than a few metres across)
3. Even if the explosion somehow maintained its FTL speed, only the part of it directly conforming to the target shillouette would impact it, the rest would pass harmlessly around it. The increase in energy delivered would be minuscule.
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Exactly.Batman wrote:I think what AMX is getting at is while half the explosion is heading away from the target at c, until the final collapse of the warp field the entirety of the explosion is still moving towards the target at multiples of c.
I dimly remember something about "warp bubbles" that remained intact on their own for considerable amounts of time ... but you're probably right.Problems:
1. The field will collapse the instant the explosion is triggered, what with the torpedo being disintegrated.
Point.2. Even if it didn't, the energy would slow to c the moment it left the warp field of the torpedo (which I doubt is more than a few metres across)
Uh - yes, I think.3. Even if the explosion somehow maintained its FTL speed, only the part of it directly conforming to the target shillouette would impact it, the rest would pass harmlessly around it. The increase in energy delivered would be minuscule.
To summarize: The torpedo would have to move at incredibly high speed, so the energy doesn't have time to leave the warp field before hitting the target, and even then, the idea hinges on whether or not the warp field actually remains active after the explosion at all.
Right?
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Why not just fling warp cores at the enemy? It'll be cheaper than building warp torpedoes.AMX wrote: To summarize: The torpedo would have to move at incredibly high speed, so the energy doesn't have time to leave the warp field before hitting the target, and even then, the idea hinges on whether or not the warp field actually remains active after the explosion at all.
Right?
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Re: Could a torpedo deliver its full yield?
But that's at WARP, in a WARP FIELD, not in REAL SPACE. Read the post before you criticize.Batman wrote:Too bad Trek ship under Warp do it all the time.SCRawl wrote: Just a nitpick, but that can't be right. Nothing can move at the speed of light in real space, period -- that pesky special relativity again. If it moves at the speed of light or faster, and it has mass, it's in some other medium. Clearly, a torpedo has mass, and if it has some means of going FTL, that's great, but it can't do it in real space.
Trek ships fire torps at one another at Warp speed, therefore the torpedoes are able to maintain Warp speed, if not achieve it on their own. Therefore, torpedoes can very clearly move FTL.
Doesn't do beans about the delivered yield, though.
Re: Could a torpedo deliver its full yield?
That would not apply in normal space battles, only if the firing ship was at warp.AMX wrote:I was just reading the "Federation Torpedoes" page, when I had a possibly stupid idea:
When a torpedo explodes, at least 50% of the energy released are directed away from the target.
Even the radiation heading directly away will "only" move at the speed of light.
Now, if the torpedo was moving FTL, and if its warp field takes a moment to collapse, the explosion will still be moving towards the target at FTL speed, so even the energy that would normally be wasted should hit it.
Anyone care to point out the flaws in that idea?
Um, hi. New guy here. Hope I'm not making a too bad first impression...
However, one thought that struck me- we know that torps have nav shields. What if those shields actually direct the energy forward? Just a random thought.
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@AMX:Right.StarshipTitanic wrote:Why not just fling warp cores at the enemy? It'll be cheaper than building warp torpedoes.AMX wrote: To summarize: The torpedo would have to move at incredibly high speed, so the energy doesn't have time to leave the warp field before hitting the target, and even then, the idea hinges on whether or not the warp field actually remains active after the explosion at all.
Right?
@StarshipTitanic: How, pray tell, do you accellerate the Warp core to Warp speed?
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'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
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'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
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A M/AM shaped charge? This I gotta see.dragon wrote:As for getting more than 50% could they attempt to do what they do in The Shiva Option when making a shaped AMX.
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'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
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'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
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'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
Attach a warp drive to it?Batman wrote:@AMX:Right.StarshipTitanic wrote:Why not just fling warp cores at the enemy? It'll be cheaper than building warp torpedoes.AMX wrote: To summarize: The torpedo would have to move at incredibly high speed, so the energy doesn't have time to leave the warp field before hitting the target, and even then, the idea hinges on whether or not the warp field actually remains active after the explosion at all.
Right?
@StarshipTitanic: How, pray tell, do you accellerate the Warp core to Warp speed?
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Which however sort of nixes the cheapness aspect...Praxis wrote:Attach a warp drive to it?@StarshipTitanic: How, pray tell, do you accellerate the Warp core to Warp speed?Why not just fling warp cores at the enemy? It'll be cheaper than building warp torpedoes.
EDITed to fix quoting tags.Grr..
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
Yeah but it should take out the enemy ship in one shot Alot cheaper than repairing or replacing your ship after a battle. Considering the impact of the explosion in Generations, you could probably take out a sizable chunk of a fleet with that. Imagine that they launched their warp cores at the Dominion fleet in "Sacrifice of Angels"...they would have sent LOADS of Jem'Hadar fighters flying, and torn apart any ship it directly impacted.Batman wrote:Which however sort of nixes the cheapness aspect...Praxis wrote:Attach a warp drive to it?@StarshipTitanic: How, pray tell, do you accellerate the Warp core to Warp speed?
EDITed to fix quoting tags.Grr..
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Torpedoes can move at FTL speed as seen in warp speed combat where torpedoes have been fired.
However torpedoes dont really move at FTL. They warp space to move at FTL. The moment the warp field collapses the light is going to speed away in the opposite directon without hitting the target.
However torpedoes dont really move at FTL. They warp space to move at FTL. The moment the warp field collapses the light is going to speed away in the opposite directon without hitting the target.
I have to tell you something everything I wrote above is a lie.
Thank you for your contribution. I think we know that by now.The Shadow wrote:Torpedoes can move at FTL speed as seen in warp speed combat where torpedoes have been fired.
However torpedoes dont really move at FTL. They warp space to move at FTL. The moment the warp field collapses the light is going to speed away in the opposite directon without hitting the target.
Let me restate my point, just in case:
"If the FTL speed is maintained after the torpedo explodes, even the light headed away from the target will be carried towards it (and possibly hit it) by the not yet completely collapsed warp field."
Do you happen to know how long it takes a warp field to collapse after the drive has been vaporized?