The SDN Bunker Revisted

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Re: The SDN Bunker Revisted

Post by Broomstick »

And now, a blast from the past thread:

ImageImageImage
This is the lower level of the study/lecture/coffeehouse complex or pod or unit or whatever we're calling them. The center area, two stories high, is a lecture/meeting area for larger groups. There is a definite "coffeehouse" which could also be a bar if that seems appropriate or desired. There are open bays that can be used for ad-hoc groupings or as "stores" or swap meets. Basically, easily reconfigured public space.

Image
This is the upper level. Surrounding the atrium area are rooms that can be used for study or small classes as well as a public reading area.

Image
Close up of a study room/small classroom. Yes, that is an old fashioned blackboard next to a (presumably) networked laptop. The cabinet is for holding supplies.

Image
This is a public reading area/lending library. This is from an earlier draft with everything on one level, but the upper level reading room is essentially the same. There are also toilets on the upper level although I didn't take a "snapshot" of those.

Notice that there is greenery on the upper level. The idea was that there would be multiple such units throughout the complex to accommodate meeting and educational needs.

Other spaces such as the mess hall and gym could also be configured for meetings of large groups.

Why am I using old photos? Because I have them, and I didn't want to take the time to convert more views from 3D to 2D JPG's. Although if there are requests for close-ups of particular areas I will do so.
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Re: The SDN Bunker Revisted

Post by Broomstick »

Agent Fisher supplied this proposed sketch of a "medical pod" with the listing of what areas are what:

Image
Red is the ER beds, maroon is trauma, the nurse station is in the center there, blue is for the bathrooms, light green is the locked pharmaceutical, dark green is clean holding (otherwise known as a storage room, food, water, ice, wheelchairs, stuff like that), brown is a on-call room with a bunk bed, coffee, snacks, and a couch. The yellow are parking spaces for mobile computer terminals and the purple is a blanket warmer. The ER staff will be two RNs (one being the charge nurse), a doctor who can also do trauma work, and three nurse assistants. The bottom right ER room can also be made into an isolation ER room if we need to. Now, if we want to keep the staff/footprint small on the medical pod, the trauma room can double as the OR.
And this is my drawing, still in progress:
Image
Six ER bays, one operating/trauma room, nursing stations and the two bathrooms are pretty close to what he proposed. I did add some details in the break room, which in addition to a couch, two tables, and four chairs also has a small fridge, microwave, and sink as well as shelves for snacks, beverages, etc. also has the detail of a nap room with a bunk bed. The sleeping/resting area is buffered from other areas which may be noisy by a storage area and two doors, but is still readily accessible. Behind the bathrooms and OR are two storage areas, with the smaller one being for locked storage. Also, behind the OR is a work/store room for supplies that also has sinks and autoclaves for sterilization, because we'll need to do that ourselves instead of outsourcing such work. There is also a conference/study/research room (yes, it's closely modeled on the other study/classrooms).

The ER, operating room, and bathrooms are tiled on floor and walls to make cleaning/sanitizing easier.

I'm thinking of adding a couple office type rooms for private discussions between medics and patients, maybe a triage area and waiting area as well. Also, might be a good idea to have a small in-patient unit for those who need monitoring during recovery from injury and illness.

Somewhere in this hypothetical bunker an industrial laundry, heavy workshop for repair and/or replacement of tools, and a laboratory of some sort for pharmaceutical compounding as well as producing useful chemicals needs to be located. We can not, of course, duplicate the facilities of a world-class hospital but there are quite a few useful medicines and items that can be manufactured on the small scale. Like soap. Skin cream. Alcohol.

ETA: This is particularly to show that if you have an idea it doesn't need to be elaborate to be turned into part of the bunker. Also, as the medical pod is still in progress suggestions for improvement are welcomed.
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Re: The SDN Bunker Revisted

Post by Agent Fisher »

I actually sketched up a whole medical wing, back in the day when I was still working hospital security, on the slow nights at least. I'll see if I can find the little notebook they were in and see about getting some outlines to you. Basically, it had the ER pod, and then a pod for inpatient rooms, a pod for the pharmacy and storage area, a smaller pod for kid stuff (a NICU, rooms for children), a large pod that was a combination doctors offices and medical imaging stuff (X-ray, ultrasound).
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Re: The SDN Bunker Revisted

Post by Broomstick »

And... another sketch from the past thread, this time from Knife who I think did a better job than he gives himself credit for:

Image

He stated he wanted more space, or at least the illusion of more space, than my floorplans which I admit are pretty damn dense

And my take on the same:

Image

I added a small toilet area and a teeny room/closet. As Knife mentioned, this would work for either couples or couples with infants (the teeny room could be configured as a nursery - I actually had a friend who converted a walk-in closet into a nursery for her child). Couples without children might want to configure one of the two "rooms" into a work area and the other as a living area.

A bathing area and communal kitchen area would serve several of these units.
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Re: The SDN Bunker Revisted

Post by Broomstick »

Here I'm starting to assemble the entire complex. If you squint you might recognize several of the "pods" and rooms. The drawing is nowhere near complete but it gives you and idea of some of the relative sizes of things.

Image

In addition to the exercise/aquaponics, mess hall, and one of the "study pods" there are living quarters for about 150 people pictured here, or a bit more than half of a 250 person shelter requirement.

I'd like to put a "park" of sorts in here somewhere, too.
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Re: The SDN Bunker Revisted

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

Wow looking very VERY good there!

Does indeed give a great sense of scale and size. Mostly with how LITTLE space we would eventually need.

Some of the Salt caves that were being looked out would be able to hold dozens of these complexes in them.

That said looking at it I wonder if some facilities we should standardized...
4 habitat pods+ one Mess Hall + one "Study Pod" area seems a good block to replicate.
Also I might recommend trying to see how it looks with larger hall walls connecting up other areas.
In the first thread I designed a two level high arched hall way with recessed lightning to mimic a Day/night cycle as well as even mimic sky, clouds and stars and such.

A "Park Pod" would be a very VERY good Idea. I imagine a tall room to give a sense of being outdoors and space. Most likely it may be the tallest building in the shelter. Maybe even some trees growing inside fed by lots of artificial 'sunlight'. Perhaps an artificial pond or 'river' as well, anything to enhance the feel of having nature inside, or being outside.
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Re: The SDN Bunker Revisted

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I've thought of making the habitation areas on two levels although as you noted the salt caves have enough space to let these complexes sprawl.

The 4-pods for the habitation areas here vary between 48 and 96 people so the density varies. The assumption is that most of the population will be young singles but some allowance needs to be made for couples (both newly formed and old fogies like my spouse and me) and some family units, or units convertible to family units. Strictly speaking, this doesn't have to be traditional nuclear families - they could be associations of adults, extended families, etc. Over the course of the proposed 10 years it's conceivable some of those with pre-teen kids today could wind up grandparents by the end of the decade of residence.

On the subject of the medical units - how many beds would be appropriate for 250/500/1000 people?

And what would people like to see in the park(s)? Other than trees, of course. I'd lean towards "edible landscaping" to get maximum use of space and resources but we could have a few "wasteful" pretty things because psychological needs are important, too. The park space could also allow for a limited amount of animal life. Some birth control measures would have to be instituted, and gates, but it would provide a more natural feel.
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Re: The SDN Bunker Revisted

Post by Zaune »

How large an intake are we planning for, anyway? From what I recall of the original scenario, we're not going to be able to keep this place a secret very easily, and that means anyone living in the vicinity is going to be making a run for the place as soon as The Collapse kicks off.
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Re: The SDN Bunker Revisted

Post by Broomstick »

How many do we want to accept?

If we are deep enough in a salt mine anyone who doesn't know where we are, and who lacks lights/vehicles/caving equipment and knowledge are going to be at a serious, serious disadvantage even finding us in the dark. Add in weapons and willingness to be selfish and we won't have to accept anyone we don't care to.

Or, we could be more open and generous and taking in starving refugees... with all the issues that might arise from that scenario. And we'll need more habitation spaces. We could build a few "dorms" that we don't intend to use and keep shut/inactive until we need them.

Which do folks want?
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Re: The SDN Bunker Revisted

Post by Zaune »

I think we'd do better to build in as much extra capacity as possible from the start. We're not going to be able to keep the location a complete secret; even if we don't have to bring in outside contractors to do the building work, we'll still have to buy materials and hire machinery. People are going to talk.

That means we're going to have refugees on the doorstep, pleading for their and their children's lives. I know I couldn't slam the door in their faces, even if I was ordered to, and I suspect most of the rank-and-file will feel the same.
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Re: The SDN Bunker Revisted

Post by Broomstick »

OK, then I'll throw in some more of the dense dorm living arrangements for refugees. Some of the 4-person units could accommodate families. Probably best if we attempt to assimilate newcomers and not simply segregate them into their own wing but we'll need a spot for intake and orientation of new arrivals and could probably set aside a "dorm" for that before such folks are re-assigned elsewhere (though some folks might choose to live in the intake dorm, particularly intake workers).

Which gets me to another point. We'll have some less dense situations as well. Who gets the "better" accommodations? I'm planning to put the denser units closer to mess halls, exercise, and study areas so the residents don't have to travel as far to get to recreational/educational areas as compensation for their denser quarters. Some of the single-person accommodations could be for those who don't tolerate crowds well due to psychological issues, and could work as "house arrest" units for the inevitable problem people such a group will have (unless someone wants to bring in summary executions for such, but I, for one, would prefer a more humane alternative). We'll have the "single unit housing" and "jail" units in a separate wing, though. We will need some sort of order enforcement.

Not that the "better" accommodations will really be that much better. There will still be communal facilities for quite a few things, and not a heck of a lot of space for anyone.
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Re: The SDN Bunker Revisted

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

Any updates Broom? I was hoping to see the pics from the last thread re-uploaded. I know most of those links are broken now :<
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Re: The SDN Bunker Revisted

Post by Broomstick »

Due to a conjunction of events I don't really want to go into here, I haven't had much time off from work these past few weeks. I do, however, have an actual weekend coming up, so tomorrow I may start posting some updates.
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Re: The SDN Bunker Revisted

Post by Broomstick »

By request, some repostings: first, a tour of the dining hall

Image
ImageImage

You'll note that there are two different configurations for the stove-and-counter area. The one with more countertop is the revised version, altered after suggestion by the thread participants.

The black-floored room is a walk-in freezer. There are several large refrigerators in the prep areas as well as automatic dishwashers and lots of storage. The lower left area on the top picture is toilet/wash facilities for the area. I use a lot of arched ceiling for an impression of more space in this area. Eating areas are separated by an arch-lined walkway from serving/food prep areas. The area with wooden shelving and a low counter will have self-serve food and beverages available outside of normal serving hours.

You can fit quite a lot of people into this space.
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Re: The SDN Bunker Revisted

Post by Broomstick »

Here is the densest dorm configuration, with four beds to a sleeping room. The closet/storage areas serve as a buffer between the bed area and the corridors and other areas with noise potential. Upper corner has the toilet/bathing area. Going counter-clockwise you have the laundry/utility room (yes, we're planning to have a central laundry but "local" facilities allow for greater independence for residents and serves as backup to the "industrial" laundry), storage areas, local kitchen (same rationale - allows for small local use and as backup to main facilities), entertainment/lounge area and a small work/study area.

Image

We have mentioned the potential for allowing new arrivals and we might set aside one of these dorms for them, both for orientation purposes and for quarantine in comfortable conditions. In such a small, enclosed environment we'll need some precautions against contagious illness. Making the dorm areas capable of independent existence would also work to "lock down" residents in the event of a disease outbreak to nip any epidemics in the bud.

Close ups of various parts of the dorm:
Image
ImageImage
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

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Re: The SDN Bunker Revisted

Post by Broomstick »

A less dense sleeping unit:
Image
Image
Image
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

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Re: The SDN Bunker Revisted

Post by Mr Bean »

How viable is a two to a unit sleeping quarters? Can you stack as many in the same space? The reason I ask is that four per room encourages shifting thinking. IE Gold and Red, where the left side bunks are gold crew 6AM to 6PM while Red crew is the opposite. Otherwise four people in that space is going to have them tripping over each other.
Also have you considered tracked storage? IE something like this
Image
Southwest storage solutions seems to have dozens of these types of configurations but I'm assuming those dividing walls are not load bearing meaning rather than putting up a wall with shelving units we could have floor or ceiling tracks and jam in two shelves in the same room we need for a shelf and wall to hang it on.

*Edit I'm not thinking powered shelves like the ones in the picture just ones to be moved.

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Re: The SDN Bunker Revisted

Post by Broomstick »

Mr Bean wrote:How viable is a two to a unit sleeping quarters? Can you stack as many in the same space? The reason I ask is that four per room encourages shifting thinking. IE Gold and Red, where the left side bunks are gold crew 6AM to 6PM while Red crew is the opposite. Otherwise four people in that space is going to have them tripping over each other.
We hashed some of this through in the prior thread. There are several ways to look at the dorm situation.

First of all, remember that this is intended to be home for ten years. While submarine crews routinely pack people much more densely submarine cruises are limited in part by psychological limits than supply limits. Even with carefully selected crews chosen for tolerance of such conditions Navies usually don't keep them down longer than a year.

We could develop individual "pods" for single occupant use and just assume everyone stays put for 10 years. Or we could have sleeping rooms that are primarily for sleeping and not for living in. Keeping the sleeping areas very limited in use forces people to get up off their lazy asses and move, which promotes health and social interactions. The dorm dwellers are intended to spend most waking hours outside of their bedroom - lounge, work area, exercise area, kitchen/mess hall, etc.

People can sleep four to a room - I remember when all four siblings in my family slept in the same room. When my mother was a child they slept 5-6 to a room. What makes such sleeping areas tolerable is the ability to go elsewhere. For both mental and physical health people need space to move around, need to actually do some moving, and there are multiple ways to configure space. Likewise, the current promoters of teeny-tiny living spaces (often just large enough for a bed and a little storage) invariably live in situations where they can go outside. We won't be able to do that for ten years.

Upthread here we had some much less dense living units as well. Such units would have a smaller (or no) "lounge"/living room/entertainment area.

Keep in mind, too, the notion is NOT to simply stuff these dorms full - we might start with even the densest dorms at half-capacity. We need to have extra capacity for three reasons:
1) After 10 years there will be more people even with the tremendously skewed male:female ratio of SD.net
2) We seem to have some notion of wanting to be able to accept refugees from outside
3) After 10 years stuff is going to break - due to one thing or another some rooms and perhaps an entire dorm might be rendered uninhabitable or severely degraded.
4) Most importantly, especially since this is NOT a carefully selected "crew" but a random cross-section, we're going to need room to move people around when conflicts arise. Failure to recognize that some people hate each other and should not housed too closely can lead to assault and/or murder over the long haul.
Also have you considered tracked storage?.
Moving parts are more likely to break than non-moving parts, it's that simple. Such moving storage might have utility in longer-term storage areas, or some workplaces (including food storage, medical storage, etc.) but I think humans, like most primates, can be pretty hard on their living/nesting areas. I've seen the damage human beings can do to their living quarters, we really do want durability for a decade long habitation where outside resupply is impossible.

Not to mention the added expense - moving storage systems are invariably more expensive than the non-moving variety (unless you're building shelves out of exotic woods or such, which we wouldn't be doing here).
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Re: The SDN Bunker Revisted

Post by Mr Bean »

Broomstick wrote: We hashed some of this through in the prior thread.
I know but it's a revisted thread and a quick scan did not show this mentioned but then I scanned so I might have missed it.

Broomstick wrote: There are several ways to look at the dorm situation.

First of all, remember that this is intended to be home for ten years. While submarine crews routinely pack people much more densely submarine cruises are limited in part by psychological limits than supply limits. Even with carefully selected crews chosen for tolerance of such conditions Navies usually don't keep them down longer than a year.

We could develop individual "pods" for single occupant use and just assume everyone stays put for 10 years. Or we could have sleeping rooms that are primarily for sleeping and not for living in. Keeping the sleeping areas very limited in use forces people to get up off their lazy asses and move, which promotes health and social interactions. The dorm dwellers are intended to spend most waking hours outside of their bedroom - lounge, work area, exercise area, kitchen/mess hall, etc.

People can sleep four to a room - I remember when all four siblings in my family slept in the same room. When my mother was a child they slept 5-6 to a room. What makes such sleeping areas tolerable is the ability to go elsewhere. For both mental and physical health people need space to move around, need to actually do some moving, and there are multiple ways to configure space. Likewise, the current promoters of teeny-tiny living spaces (often just large enough for a bed and a little storage) invariably live in situations where they can go outside. We won't be able to do that for ten years.
A valid point, my aim was more towards the problem of tripping over each other. Generally subs and ships aim to stagger sleeping schedules so people are not tripping over each other getting ready at the end of the day /the start of their shift. Keep in mind the Bunker/Vault will have things that need doing so you have to keep a eye towards work flow. Even if your work is dusting shelves or sweeping hallways I assume every Vault resident will have some kind of job even if it's a four hour a day job to do something promoting the heath and welfare of the vault. I can see the trained and dedicated engineers responsible for Vault electricity being brought lunch in a small attached dining hall next to the maintenance bays or other Un-Designated residents (UnDes IE untrained labor) gathering up laundry from sleeping rooms for washing. I can see your mentioning of how the sleep pods are designed only for sleeping and changing and little else.
Broomstick wrote: Keep in mind, too, the notion is NOT to simply stuff these dorms full - we might start with even the densest dorms at half-capacity. We need to have extra capacity for three reasons:
1) After 10 years there will be more people even with the tremendously skewed male:female ratio of SD.net
2) We seem to have some notion of wanting to be able to accept refugees from outside
3) After 10 years stuff is going to break - due to one thing or another some rooms and perhaps an entire dorm might be rendered uninhabitable or severely degraded.
4) Most importantly, especially since this is NOT a carefully selected "crew" but a random cross-section, we're going to need room to move people around when conflicts arise. Failure to recognize that some people hate each other and should not housed too closely can lead to assault and/or murder over the long haul.
The crew references are more along the idea that regardless of what we were on the outside, once inside the SDN bunker we are going to have to start organizing into a crew of sorts. People need normalcy of having a job (No matter how menial) and a schedule and a place to be and downtime set is very comforting to people. It's a cornerstone. Today I get up, I go do something for four to eight hours then I have downtime then I have my sleep time. To prevent boredom and sameness from crushing the spirit we hve other people and lots of activities to get us through the years.
Broomstick wrote:
Also have you considered tracked storage?.
Moving parts are more likely to break than non-moving parts, it's that simple. Such moving storage might have utility in longer-term storage areas, or some workplaces (including food storage, medical storage, etc.) but I think humans, like most primates, can be pretty hard on their living/nesting areas. I've seen the damage human beings can do to their living quarters, we really do want durability for a decade long habitation where outside resupply is impossible.

Not to mention the added expense - moving storage systems are invariably more expensive than the non-moving variety (unless you're building shelves out of exotic woods or such, which we wouldn't be doing here).
I thought expense was less of an issue in our hypothetical and you can buy pretty durable designs that are 100% metal based which should be fixable out of any decent machine shop since when you get down to it, it's just metal wheels rolling along a metal track using either simple slide metal with grease or bearings both of which are pretty durable to begin with.

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Re: The SDN Bunker Revisted

Post by Zaune »

The issue here is that the original scenario was very, very vague; all we were told was that Something Really Bad would happen at the end of our deadline, and that was it. It could be a meteor strike, a pandemic, a plague of triffids (because zombies are passé) or even just the global economy shitting the bed so badly that law and order starts breaking down. We have no idea how long we're going to have to stay down there; it might be the whole ten years, it might be a matter of a few months.

Personally, I'm hoping for the latter, because I give us two to three years at most before we have our first tantrum spiral.
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Re: The SDN Bunker Revisted

Post by Broomstick »

Revised ER pod:

Image

Clockwise from top corner: autoclave/storage/workroom, OR, exam bays with nursing stations (the dark gray shape near the top of this area is a wheelchair, not easily seen in this view), intake/triage/waiting area, waiting room/conference/grieving room for patient friends/loved ones, conference/research area for medical personnel, rest/storage area, break room, and storage area. The toilets are between the storage and exam area.
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Re: The SDN Bunker Revisted

Post by Broomstick »

Mr Bean wrote:The crew references are more along the idea that regardless of what we were on the outside, once inside the SDN bunker we are going to have to start organizing into a crew of sorts. People need normalcy of having a job (No matter how menial) and a schedule and a place to be and downtime set is very comforting to people.
I'm in favor of everyone having some "menial" work, and rotating work schedules. There will be specialists, but if everyone has to take a turn emptying the garbage or mopping the floor it will help motivate everyone to maintain a certain level of neatness. Heavy thinkers can use the break from heavy thinking. Likewise, those who primarily do menial type labor should have the opportunity to learn something less physical. We definitely need cross training. Over 10 years it would be surprising if we didn't have a couple deaths, we can't afford to have anyone be a vital and irreplaceable link in the system.

There will be a LOT of basic maintenance around the place. From cleaning up after the hairless apes living in here to maintenance on the hydroponics production to the labor involved in processing food from a truly raw state to finished meal to tracking/distributing stored supplies.... Not to mention repairs. Stuff will break.
It's a cornerstone. Today I get up, I go do something for four to eight hours then I have downtime then I have my sleep time. To prevent boredom and sameness from crushing the spirit we hve other people and lots of activities to get us through the years.
In other words, we need both routine and variety.
Mr Bean wrote:Also have you considered tracked storage?.
I have considered that the moving/tracked storage would be good in an area like the medical pod, but I didn't take the time to go back and modify the drawing. Maybe next revision?
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Re: The SDN Bunker Revisted

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

Heya Broom!

Can't believe I missed your last update, Thread feel kinda far down the page here.

LOVE The ER pod. Have to say virtually all your renderings do a great jorb of putting a lot of useable work area into a small over all space. I know a lot of talk has been how to make things as effcient as possible, but for the most part you have done a great job of that already.

I think it would be interestign to get a list together of the more "menial" work and jobs for such a place. I really agree with you that such simple things are needed to keep everyoen sane as well as rotating the jobs so no one is doing any one job for too long.
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Re: The SDN Bunker Revisted

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Looks pretty good. Do remember that the number one priority for a bunker like this ought to be fire safety. You've got all the problems of a fire on a ship, only worse, and compounded by a plan to fill the facility with more or less random people. The specifc pods look pretty good in this respect, but the way they start going to together needs to make sure you have widely spaced exits/interconnections across the whole complex and lots and lots of sealing fire doors for smoke isolation. A complex like this could completely fill with smoke very quickly and using fire resistant materials only goes so far.
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Re: The SDN Bunker Revisted

Post by Broomstick »

You'd almost want an airlock between sections or pods.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

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